Looks like a big no for me. Neither focus peaking nor zooming in are what I consider improvements over a rangefinder. Maybe that’s the point Leica is trying to make. Why else did they not introduce a new focus technology. Now their marketing talk sounds empty and seems aimed at people who have never experienced an EVF. And featuring Meyerowitz, who famously lauded the rangefinder as the best solution ever, is a misstep in my book.
From my perspective, some Nikon bodies with adapter offer the best focus experience for M lenses, though of course, they don’t offer the best sensor coverage. This Leica could have offered both, but doesn’t.
Apparently $8,995 U.S. dollars according to BH Photo but with a notice on their website of a delay in availability in the U.S. due to FCC requirements in listing.
Frame Selector switch configurable ... focus aids or EVF Zoom.
Built in diopter adjustment is something that the classic rangefinder lacked. In some regard, Leica abandoned the diopter lenses when they went from M240 > M10. While the EVF is a tradeoff vs. the RF, the inclusion of the diopter adjustment will be a welcome addition for some folks. I have worked with my optometrist to get my bifocal script dialed in for use with my RF, but never quite got it where I really like it. On my SL (or Q), Its a trivial matter to adjust it for when I'm wearing my glass or shooting without them.
I suspect this will be a very nice benefit for some. Not to suggest that traditional RF is better / worse, just different trade-offs.
DFason wrote:
Certainly looks cool from the videos live right now. But the marketing pitch, " You belong here " is pretty strange...
It's SO strange. On the website they call the EV1 "The Easiest Way to Enter the Legendary M-System", so I assume that's what "you belong here" is getting at? Sure, if you have 10k to drop on a camera that no one really needs.
johnvanr wrote:
Looks like a big no for me. Neither focus peaking nor zooming in are what I consider improvements over a rangefinder. Maybe that’s the point Leica is trying to make. Why else did they not introduce a new focus technology. Now their marketing talk sounds empty and seems aimed at people who have never experienced an EVF. And featuring Meyerowitz, who famously lauded the rangefinder as the best solution ever, is a misstep in my book.
From my perspective, some Nikon bodies with adapter offer the best focus experience for M lenses, though of course, they don’t offer the best sensor coverage. This Leica could have offered both, but doesn’t. ...Show more →
How is the manual focus done in the EV1 if not via focus peaking nor magnification?
1bwana1 wrote:
My best information is that there is compliance issue as follows:
"The FCC has a delay in the process of getting the website updated so a consumer can reference the FCC clearance on the camera itself.
Leica USA cannot sell a camera if the site isn’t updated or it’s a felony. They are holding themselves back from allowing them to be sold to avoid that. They’ve shipped, the stores already have them. "
Seems to be a simple procedural issue caused by the Government shutdown. It should be solved shortly.
I am scheduled to get time to play with one today. So many questions should be answered soon. ...Show more →
As you wrote:
I see this posted on one the Leica Camera videos on Youtube: "#1 – Leica M EV1 – The First M with a Built-In EVF"
"The FCC authorization for Leica M EV1 is pending. Unavailable for sale in the U.S."
johnvanr wrote:
Looks like a big no for me. Neither focus peaking nor zooming in are what I consider improvements over a rangefinder. Maybe that’s the point Leica is trying to make. Why else did they not introduce a new focus technology.
Same here. I can buy a Sony A7xxx: hardly bigger and I can even have AF with my Leica lenses. And for a lot less money than the EV1, I have a camera I can also use with modern AF lenses, zooms, etc.
Because the reason I still use a M is the rangefinder and to be more exact, the clear viewfinder. I compose differently using it and I find my images are better.
Except for this, any camera can give me results as good as the Leica and I would have switched to Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic or Sony instead of using some of them as a second system.
retrofocus wrote:
+1. From what we know so far, the EV1 seems severely overpriced for what it offers.
Isn't that always the case for everything that Leica brings to the market?
Although, the general case for pricing is that M bodies are higher priced that SL bodies. Not sure why this would be expected to be any different, such that it is a surprise that it costs more than the SL3.
I'm not trying to justify its value proposition ... just saying, "no surprise", imo.
The whole "I can buy Sony, Nikon, Canon, Fuji, Panasonic, etc." ... is an age old story. The answer remains the same today, as it has for decades throughout the history of Leica, as to why folks choose their Leica vs. the other offerings. Nothing has changed, No new news. The cycle will repeat itself, folks decrying the value proposition, then over time folks buying it anyway, as subtle experiential aspects of using it become regarded over time.
Sure, not everyone will buy this today. Some will never buy it. But, the story is (imo) no different than it has ever been.
Waiting for the first reviews of this camera where also third party manual focus lenses are tested with adapters on the EV1. Curious how focusing will be working here, too. If there are issues using the EV1 with adapted standard SLR lenses for example, I would see it as very disappointing.
EVF and sensor seem to be fine in the EV1. But the camera shouldn't be priced like another M rangefinder based camera if it doesn't bring anything special to the table (like implemented digital virtual rangefinder for example).
RustyBug wrote:
Isn't that always the case for everything that Leica brings to the market?
Although, the general case for pricing is that M bodies are higher priced that SL bodies. Not sure why this would be expected to be any different, such that it is a surprise that it costs more than the SL3.
I'm not trying to justify its value proposition ... just saying, "no surprise", imo.
Maybe Leica priced the EV1 this way to distinguish enough from the Q series since electronics specs seem to be quite similar.....as I said multiple times before, they will do everything to avoid in-house competition.
Whilst getting accurate focusing wide open is easier with the electronic viewfinder you will generally need to zoom in (one button press) to confirm the focus, in lots of situations that isn’t too much of a problem, but it isn’t quick and it disturbs the bit of one’s brain which is doing the composing.
That’s wide open - if you stop down a bit with the M EV1 it can be very hard to see what is in focus and what isn’t, whereas with the rangefinders symbolic rectangles this is still just as fast and easy.
Testing Elsie, and talking about it amongst the other testers has made me really understand what a wonderful thing the rangefinder is, it is fast, involves you with the subject and it gets the camera out of the way, and although you can focus more accurately with an EVF it certainly takes longer and has an effect on the spontaneity.
It’s an interesting thought that SLR cameras which quickly outsold rangefinders in the 1960s disappeared almost completely as soon as decent mirrorless cameras came on the scene, but I’m sure that the optical rangefinder is here to stay."
"M EV1 and the SL3 for M lenses
I spent a weekend shooting the SL3 with M lenses (to see how that compared to Elsie)
Of course the SL3 is almost 400 gms heavier than the M EV1, which is certainly not insignificant (indeed, nearly twice as much). Being able to use the joy stick is a positive advantage and the eye point of the viewfinder means that the image looks bigger than the M EV1. . . . . . . . . and you can always stick on an AF lens . . . . . . and you save a couple of grand as well!
The SL3 has image stabilisation, but I really haven’t found this a problem with either the M11 or the M EV1, If there might be an issue then I use auto-ISO, Aperture priority and set the shutter speed limit to 1/(4f) so that it’s 4 times the focal length. I really don’t have an issue with camera shake.
I use the SL3 quite a lot, but truth be told I almost never use M lenses on it, because . . . why? There are so many good Auto Focus lenses for the SL system.
This has been an interesting experiment, but it hasn't changed my opinion of the M EV1, which I think is a great idea and which lots of people will really love."
Perhaps, this allows for use of longer lenses, but why shoot larger/heavier lenses on this camera? I do think there is a big advantage on the wide side and with macro. Otherwise, nothing new or innovative, or am I missing something?
RustyBug wrote:
Isn't that always the case for everything that Leica brings to the market?
Although, the general case for pricing is that M bodies are higher priced that SL bodies. Not sure why this would be expected to be any different, such that it is a surprise that it costs more than the SL3.
I'm not trying to justify its value proposition ... just saying, "no surprise", imo.
The whole "I can buy Sony, Nikon, Canon, Fuji, Panasonic, etc." ... is an age old story. The answer remains the same today, as it has for decades throughout the history of Leica, as to why folks choose their Leica vs. the other offerings. Nothing has changed, No new news. The cycle will repeat itself, folks decrying the value proposition, then over time folks buying it anyway, as subtle experiential aspects of using it become regarded over time.
Sure, not everyone will buy this today. Some will never buy it. But, the story is (imo) no different than it has ever been.
Well put. It is what it is. Leica price complaints on the threads every time Leica releases a new product or service is just part of the expected release cycle ha ha.
RustyBug wrote:
The whole "I can buy Sony, Nikon, Canon, Fuji, Panasonic, etc." ... is an age old story. The answer remains the same today, as it has for decades throughout the history of Leica, as to why folks choose their Leica vs. the other offerings. Nothing has changed, No new news. The cycle will repeat itself, folks decrying the value proposition, then over time folks buying it anyway, as subtle experiential aspects of using it become regarded over time.
Where the EV1 differs from all other MLC brands is for rangefinder lens compatibility on the sensor and avoiding lens mount adapter usage. The Nikon Zf is probably the best current bet for sensor compatibility outside the Leica environment. Alternatively, the sensor of another MLC can be modified to allow also better compatibility. If it turns out that this is the main (only?) advantage the EV1 has over other MLC brands with FF sensor, the current price tag will be hard to justify for many preferring an EVF.
Looks like a big no for me. Neither focus peaking nor zooming in are what I consider improvements over a rangefinder.
Yep, no mention of any inventive focusing aids. What a missed opportunity and a massive let down. Peaking is innacurate and magnification is too slow, and available on any other mirrorless camera. Plus it is said to be slow to start up, and unlike the rangefinder, it is not possible to focus and frame before the camera is on. You just have to wait 4 seconds before you can do anything! My Sony A7rIV does it in just under two. A big disappointment already.
Lack of innovation or vision at Leica is frustrating.
bwcolor wrote:
Perhaps, this allows for use of longer lenses, but why shoot larger/heavier lenses on this camera? I do think there is a big advantage on the wide side and with macro. Otherwise, nothing new or innovative, or am I missing something?
It will breathe some new life into the 135/3.4 APO for some. Granted that's the bookend of M glass. The other end of things is the wider lenses below 28mm. So, it's not just the longer glass. You've also got fast UWA glass that has skinnier DOF that is outside the window of the RF. Granted, you can use the LCD, but my experience with other LCD vs. EVF, the EVF is more "immersive" experience.
Of course, everyone's temperament for their experiential interface varies ... so for some it will be a big win, others will be a "meh" yawn, others a total waste.
wolfloid wrote:
Yep, no mention of any inventive focusing aids. What a missed opportunity and a massive let down. Peaking is innacurate and magnification is too slow, and available on any other mirrorless camera. Plus it is said to be slow to start up, and unlike the rangefinder, it is not possible to focus and frame before the camera is on. You just have to wait 4 seconds before you can do anything! My Sony A7rIV does it in just under two. A big disappointment already.
Lack of innovation or vision at Leica is frustrating.
I have used Leica M lenses for years via focus peaking and magnification tools adapted to my Sony A7R before finally switching over to digital Leica M since the rangefinder focusing was faster than any of the other electronic tools mentioned. I really hoped that Leica would implement an alternative better focusing aid for the manual focus based EV1.
But I still think it was overall a good move which Leica did offering such camera. It might not have desired features and hard to justify therefore with its price tag. But in a few years for 1/3rd of the current price I can see myself getting one in addition to my other M cameras.
