pmeheut wrote:
Same here. I find it in bad taste to say the least.
I deleted the post, but at this late date I don’t understand why rumors are a valid form of information vs a very powerful search engine. Lastly, nobody is required to trust either.
Message boards are one of the oldest means of communicating with other people on the internet. It's no surprise, then, that people here find AI-generated replies tasteless and unappealing. We are interested in interpersonal interaction, not lazy posts with regurgitated opinions of machines.
Does anyone think that the M11 EV1 will push down the used prices for an M11?
I'd love to have an M11, but I find it hard (intellectually) to spend more than $5500 on a camera.
Note... this coming from a guy who uses a Z9 and Nikkor 400mm f2.8TC.
In addition to the Nikon stuff, I am currently using a beautiful (mint) M-240 w/ a few nice lenses... given how little I use my M, the move to an M11 feels like a huge stretch to me. On the other hand, maybe a 60MP sensor would lead to me picking up my M body more often.
I never realized the Z9 cost no more than $5500. 24MP for 60MP means nothing to me except for extreme cropping. That said I try to get it the way I want it in camera.
I wonder if it may be that the M11-V will signal the beginning of the end, or at least of a decline, for Leica's line of cameras with a traditional mechanical rangefinder focusing mechanism.
The fundamental design of that mechanism is nearly 100 years old, developed I believe in 1932. The mechanical coupling introduces inaccuracies and difficulties into the system that have sometimes vexed users. I think that one of the reasons that so many Leica photographs are made with deep depth of field and zone focusing is because of the difficulties of being assured of a precise focus. And there are also other problems, like the issue of some lenses blocking the viewfinder.
There was recently a thread on calibration fixes and problems for the rangefinder mechanism and the frequent need to calibrate lenses individually to work with the rangefinder mechanism. This message within the thread gives a sense of the problem:
One would think that the eventual decline of the mechanically coupled rangefinder might be an inevitable development after nearly a century of triumphant success.
The M11-V could well be the beginning of a new era for Leica rangefinder bodies. A lot will depend on whether Leica's design for the focusing experience in the M11-V is pleasing to those who are used to rangefinder focusing as well as to others who might be newcomers to Leica. Nikon has shown that electronically assisted manual focusing can be graceful and very effective. I personally find myself more interested in the M11-V than I have been in the traditional Leica M system.
bwcolor wrote:
I deleted the post, but at this late date I don’t understand why rumors are a valid form of information vs a very powerful search engine. Lastly, nobody is required to trust either.
Don't be intimidated by people's biases and fears of the future. There is no harm in providing additional information in a conversation. It is likely that in the long run AI will provide higher quality information than what is often posted. Certainly true about unconfirmed rumors. I do think it best to acknowledge that the content is AI generated so people can understand the sourcing.
OwlsEyes wrote:
Does anyone think that the M11 EV1 will push down the used prices for an M11?
I'd love to have an M11, but I find it hard (intellectually) to spend more than $5500 on a camera.
Note... this coming from a guy who uses a Z9 and Nikkor 400mm f2.8TC.
In addition to the Nikon stuff, I am currently using a beautiful (mint) M-240 w/ a few nice lenses... given how little I use my M, the move to an M11 feels like a huge stretch to me. On the other hand, maybe a 60MP sensor would lead to me picking up my M body more often.
If it is a big hit it will likely initially increase the number of M11s being sold used. This may offer some buying opportunities.
Bruce, we are not so young anymore. Yes, the M11 is a bit expensive, but money spent on one is not wasted or consumed. Just re-allocated. It can be recoverd by you or your heirs. Money left in the bank has never returned any value or enjoyment to you. Don't waste days in your life.
stgrove wrote:
I never realized the Z9 cost no more than $5500. 24MP for 60MP means nothing to me except for extreme cropping. That said I try to get it the way I want it in camera.
The Z9 was at my limit... $5450 at the time of purchase. Buying this was a huge stretch at the time...
While I have more disposable income today, I want to be sure that if I buy a camera with a huge price tag, it will get used in a way that I currently use my Z9... regularly.
1bwana1 wrote:
Don't be intimidated by people's biases and fears of the future.
Maybe we should talk about your own biases because for instance IA is what I do for a living and I have no fear of it. I train them, I write agents, I use them for everything...
But any of us can search info, query Grok, ChatGPT, Claude, etc so when people start copy/pasting the result of their prompt in forums, we gain nothing.
1bwana1 wrote:
It is likely that in the long run AI will provide higher quality information than what is often posted.
This is already the case. In fact, I could set an IA to participate here with minimal effort and it would be easily as good as 90% of the post.
And so what? That is not the point. We are here to exchange with other people, not only to gather information.
chiron wrote:
The M11-V could well be the beginning of a new era for Leica rangefinder bodies. A lot will depend on whether Leica's design for the focusing experience in the M11-V is pleasing to those who are used to rangefinder focusing as well as to others who might be newcomers to Leica. Nikon has shown that electronically assisted manual focusing can be graceful and very effective. I personally find myself more interested in the M11-V than I have been in the traditional Leica M system.
One thing I’m thinking about regarding their MF assist solution is whether or not it will be patented. If not there is a risk that other manufacturers might copy the approach and Leica would lose an aspect of their unique experience. They already will to some degree just by using an EVF over the optical viewfinder.
So I don’t think this is really a danger for the classic M, rather just branching out the product line and solving some issues for some customers. More likely it will eat into Q and SL sales
pmeheut wrote:
Maybe we should talk about your own biases because for instance IA is what I do for a living and I have no fear of it. I train them, I write agents, I use them for everything...
But any of us can search info, query Grok, ChatGPT, Claude, etc so when people start copy/pasting the result of their prompt in forums, we gain nothing.
This is already the case. In fact, I could set an IA to participate here with minimal effort and it would be easily as good as 90% of the post.
And so what? That is not the point. We are here to exchange with other people, not only to gather information.
fjablo wrote:
One thing I’m thinking about regarding their MF assist solution is whether or not it will be patented. If not there is a risk that other manufacturers might copy the approach and Leica would lose an aspect of their unique experience. They already will to some degree just by using an EVF over the optical viewfinder.
So I don’t think this is really a danger for the classic M, rather just branching out the product line and solving some issues for some customers. More likely it will eat into Q and SL sales
That's relative. The rangefinder can be copied, but the market is so small, no one cares.
That may be the same for any camera and lens setup that only offers a rather classic manual focus mechanism, albeit with a modern EVF.
I'm wondering if this functionality, if it's new, will somehow be limited only to Leica lenses. If that's possible and they implement that limitation, it's of no use to me because I only have one Leica lens and no intention of buying more. All the rest are Zeiss and Voigtlander.
johnvanr wrote:
it's of no use to me because I only have one Leica lens and no intention of buying more. All the rest are Zeiss and Voigtlander.
Same here but my Voigt lenses are all 6 bit coded so the camera does not make the difference.
I wonder if it will work with non-coded lenses because it would make the new Leica a nice platform to use MF lenses. But then, IBIS would be useful. And of course, I will not mention the price compared to Sony & Nikon.
pmeheut wrote:
Maybe we should talk about your own biases because for instance IA is what I do for a living and I have no fear of it. I train them, I write agents, I use them for everything...
But any of us can search info, query Grok, ChatGPT, Claude, etc so when people start copy/pasting the result of their prompt in forums, we gain nothing.
This is already the case. In fact, I could set an IA to participate here with minimal effort and it would be easily as good as 90% of the post.
And so what? That is not the point. We are here to exchange with other people, not only to gather information.
I guess we will disagree on this. A fellow member decided to contribute something to the conversation that included AI content that was properly attributed. He was intimidated enough to delete the post. I was happy to read what he had added. I guess my bias is to welcome pretty much all contributions from fellow members that contribute to the discussion.
johnvanr wrote:
That's relative. The rangefinder can be copied, but the market is so small, no one cares.
That may be the same for any camera and lens setup that only offers a rather classic manual focus mechanism, albeit with a modern EVF.
I'm wondering if this functionality, if it's new, will somehow be limited only to Leica lenses. If that's possible and they implement that limitation, it's of no use to me because I only have one Leica lens and no intention of buying more. All the rest are Zeiss and Voigtlander.
You can make a camera with an optical rangefinder, yes. But you can’t easily integrate that experience in any system as it requires coupled lenses.
Their new solution will just be software-based and could be copied relatively easily by other cameras as long as they have on-sensor phase detection. How about a new Sigma BF with that kind of assist tool? Or a Sony A7C? Or a rangefinder-styled Nikon Zs?
In the end Leica exist in their own niche but to maintain that they probably need to keep the optical rangefinder line alive (even if just for brand heritage reasons)
(Agree that others probably don’t care enough to copy Leica )
1bwana1 wrote:
He was intimidated enough to delete the post.
He was not intimidated, nobody asked for the deletion, nobody said bad things about the contributor, we just said we would like to avoid such things. We expressed an opinion, that's all.
1bwana1 wrote:
I was happy to read what he had added.
Maybe but several other members expressed a different opinion.
1bwana1 wrote:
I guess my bias is to welcome pretty much all contributions from fellow members that contribute to the discussion.
No, your bias was to supposed that we knew nothing about IA and were afraid of it, i.e. that you are somehow superior to us.
And your second bias it to continue to think you are better simply because we do not agree.
You are a nice person and a good photographer, I have a lot of respect for you but in this case, you should get off your high horse.
And this is my final message about it as I do not want to continue to pollute this thread.
pmeheut wrote:
He was not intimidated, nobody asked for the deletion, nobody said bad things about the contributor, we just said we would like to avoid such things. We expressed an opinion, that's all.
Maybe but several other members expressed a different opinion.
No, your bias was to supposed that we knew nothing about IA and were afraid of it, i.e. that you are somehow superior to us.
And your second bias it to continue to think you are better simply because we do not agree.
You are a nice person and a good photographer, I have a lot of respect for you but in this case, you should get off your high horse.
And this is my final message about it as I do not want to continue to pollute this thread....Show more →
I never addressed you specifically. But now that you have commented in a personal way, I will point out that you did post that you consider posts such as his that do contain AI content to "be in bad taste". Such criticisms of his post were enough to cause him to delete his post with this comment "I deleted the post, but at this late date I don’t understand why rumors are a valid form of information vs a very powerful search engine. Lastly, nobody is required to trust either." Now we don't have a summary of what is expected to be in the new camera (whether 100% correct or not) in this thread for discussion. I will let his deletion stand on it's own as to whether that amounts to intimidation or not.
I also never claimed any superior knowledge of AI, nor lack of by and other named individual in this thread. That fact that you took it that way says more about your opinion on your own knowledge of the subject say more about you than it does my post.
I did post that we disagree on the subject. I passed no value on that. I think it is fine to disagree, that is my bias. That is what discussion is for. I don't think offering encouragement to a fellow member who posted something with good intentions, without addressing anyone else directly, should cause any conflicts. No claim of superiority in that nor is it a personal attack in any way.
What I do agree on is that we don't further pollute this thread in such discussion and move on.
johnvanr wrote:
I'm wondering if this functionality, if it's new, will somehow be limited only to Leica lenses. If that's possible and they implement that limitation, it's of no use to me because I only have one Leica lens and no intention of buying more. All the rest are Zeiss and Voigtlander.
I don't expect that it will be limited. Since there is no electrical communication between the lenses and the camera in the M system the camera has no way of knowing whether it is a Leica lens attached or not. Since focus will be software based, and not depend on focal length or mechanical coupling at all I expect that all M mount lenses will work with full implementation of all features.
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