Tariq Gibran wrote:
It's a good point, particularly as we already have the SL system which is compatible to a large extent with M lenses. Given this, I think their might be a very good chance that a manual M lens only EVF M body is going to be very expensive with low sales numbers as the market would be small.
Exactly - take the very small number of M owners and split that. It doesn't do any favors for Leica. Most people don't own a Leica due to cost, but secondly is because it is manual-focus only. An EVF doesn't fix either of those things.
whiteonline wrote:
Exactly - take the very small number of M owners and split that. It doesn't do any favors for Leica. Most people don't own a Leica due to cost, but secondly is because it is manual-focus only. An EVF doesn't fix either of those things.
Leica bleeds out M customers over the age of 50 due to eyesight issues that interfere with focusing with the optical rangefinder. These are folks that have previously bought into the manual focus M experience but have been forced to move to cameras with EVFs. This isn't the only demographic for an EVF-M camera, but it's an often overlooked one.
highdesertmesa wrote:
Leica bleeds out M customers over the age of 50 due to eyesight issues that interfere with focusing with the optical rangefinder. These are folks that have previously bought into the manual focus M experience but have been forced to move to cameras with EVFs. This isn't the only demographic for an EVF-M camera, but it's an often overlooked one.
The problem is that unless the EVF is absolutely stellar and offers precise focus aids, it’s not much of an improvement over rangefinder focusing for the kind of stuff one usually uses a M for.
And then there is of course the fact that it’s already possible now to use autofocus with M lenses via the TechArt adapter, just not on a Leica camera. In good light and with the longer lenses that are harder to focus with a rangefinder, the Nikons and the techart adapter can do a good job. Is that Leica’s next hurdle to overcome?
johnvanr wrote:
The problem is that unless the EVF is absolutely stellar and offers precise focus aids, it’s not much of an improvement over rangefinder focusing for the kind of stuff one usually uses a M for.
And then there is of course the fact that it’s already possible now to use autofocus with M lenses via the TechArt adapter, just not on a Leica camera. In good light and with the longer lenses that are harder to focus with a rangefinder, the Nikons and the techart adapter can do a good job. Is that Leica’s next hurdle to overcome?
I'm talking about those that want to stay with the M body and M lens experience. And yes, an EVF of at least 5M dots and decent magnification is stellar at focusing under magnification. On top of that, the rumored specs say there will be new focusing aids.
Honestly, it doesn't really matter what we think. Once this camera is released, the full marketing push will get it into the hands of influencers, and they'll love everything about it. Expect comments like, "What took Leica so long?" and many will call it the best camera ever made. Just watch!
highdesertmesa wrote:
I'm talking about those that want to stay with the M body and M lens experience. And yes, an EVF of at least 5M dots and decent magnification is stellar at focusing under magnification. On top of that, the rumored specs say there will be new focusing aids.
I’m just discussing the larger picture. I’d love to keep using my M lenses on whatever camera I can use them that’s not too large or heavy. Weakening eyesight, as you say, is the main hindrance to that.
johnvanr wrote:
I’m just discussing the larger picture. I’d love to keep using my M lenses on whatever camera I can use them that’s not too large or heavy.
I'd suggest adapting your M-lenses to a Kolari-modded Sony A7CR. It's the smallest camera you can use with M-lenses, and the image quality is ridiculously good...on par with an M11. You can even use autofocus, including Eye-AF!
This set-up made me ditch my SL2 or upgrade to a SL3.
whiteonline wrote:
Exactly - take the very small number of M owners and split that. It doesn't do any favors for Leica. Most people don't own a Leica due to cost, but secondly is because it is manual-focus only. An EVF doesn't fix either of those things.
hmm, what is the ratio of people who shoot m-mount lenses on a digital leica m camera to those who shoot m-mount lenses on an other mirrorless camera?
Fred Miranda wrote:
Honestly, it doesn't really matter what we think. Once this camera is released, the full marketing push will get it into the hands of influencers, and they'll love everything about it. Expect comments like, "What took Leica so long?" and many will call it the best camera ever made. Just watch!
i mean, i have been begging leica to make this for over a decade (i'm sure the archives can prove this), but i still won't believe it till i see it.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Honestly, it doesn't really matter what we think. Once this camera is released, the full marketing push will get it into the hands of influencers, and they'll love everything about it. Expect comments like, "What took Leica so long?" and many will call it the best camera ever made. Just watch!
If it's just the M11 with an EVF, reviews will be soggy. What will make or break this camera will be the performance of new digital manual focusing aids. I'm fine with just magnification, but many have been clamoring for Zf-style eye tracking and some sort of virtual digital rangefinder voodoo.
"The latest Leica M11-V camera leak indicates that there will be no “rangefinder window.” This likely refers to the small prism on the right front facade that provides the rangefinder (RF) patch. Note that the leak does not state that the large optical viewfinder, the one we look through with our eye, has been removed. Additionally, the leak mentions that the frame selector lever now has “dual functionality for the viewfinder.” This could mean that the M11-V will still have an optical viewfinder window, but with a frame selector lever that also activates the electronic viewfinder (EVF), while the rangefinder window is eliminated, and thus, the focusing patch is gone. Focusing will probably work as if a standard M11 is used with the back screen or with a Visoflex 2, which means focus peaking will become essential, but the optical viewfinder will still be available without the manual focusing patch. Perhaps the implementation will resemble the hybrid viewfinder found in cameras like the Fujifilm X100 and X-Pro."
highdesertmesa wrote:
If it's just the M11 with an EVF, reviews will be soggy. What will make or break this camera will be the performance of new digital manual focusing aids. I'm fine with just magnification, but many have been clamoring for Zf-style eye tracking and some sort of virtual digital rangefinder voodoo.
That voodoo requires some interesting hardware to do well: lidar? PDAF? AI chip? additional cell phone sensor/lens like DJI Focus Pro, some combo of these options? I really think there is an opportunity to make a completely tech based rangefinder patch that rivals the OVF. Especially for those of us with poor vision. If they don't do something like this then it's just a normal mirrorless camera dressed up in a M body. I'll be more than happy to stick with my SL2-S if that's the case.
Fred Miranda wrote:
I'd suggest adapting your M-lenses to a Kolari-modded Sony A7CR. It's the smallest camera you can use with M-lenses, and the image quality is ridiculously good...on par with an M11. You can even use autofocus, including Eye-AF!
This set-up made me ditch my SL2 or upgrade to a SL3.
I'm not sure I'm prepared to try the Sony route again. Somehow, I've never enjoyed actually using them. Plus, the TechArt on my Nikon is still lacking in quite a few scenarios and when it then comes to manual focusing, I prefer the Nikon solution over the Sony one.
I'm going to buy one - already on my dealer's list (2nd in line). If it's a failed experiment I've got other Ms. I'm almost 67 and can still focus just fine with a rangefinder. This "if you're over 50, you can't focus" nonsense is just that. If the system is workable, it will provide some degree of future-proofing for a Leica M lens-compatible body and those with poorer eyesight an option.
Leica is not a mainstream camera. That's part of the draw for me. I love the build quality, the size, and even the legacy. I have lots of other cameras, but I love using Leica Ms and will continue to buy them if they're available. Remember the Porsche commercial "there is no substitute" - that's me and Ms. Not using a converted Sony or a Pixii or anything else.
Fred Miranda wrote:
I'd suggest adapting your M-lenses to a Kolari-modded Sony A7CR. It's the smallest camera you can use with M-lenses, and the image quality is ridiculously good...on par with an M11. You can even use autofocus, including Eye-AF!
This set-up made me ditch my SL2 or upgrade to a SL3.
Fred, how long does it take for the Kolari modification to be completed on the A7CR and what does it cost? Also, is auto focus achieved with a techart adapter?
crf59 wrote:
I'm going to buy one - already on my dealer's list (2nd in line). If it's a failed experiment I've got other Ms. I'm almost 67 and can still focus just fine with a rangefinder. This "if you're over 50, you can't focus" nonsense is just that. If the system is workable, it will provide some degree of future-proofing for a Leica M lens-compatible body and those with poorer eyesight an option.
Leica is not a mainstream camera. That's part of the draw for me. I love the build quality, the size, and even the legacy. I have lots of other cameras, but I love using Leica Ms and will continue to buy them if they're available. Remember the Porsche commercial "there is no substitute" - that's me and Ms. Not using a converted Sony or a Pixii or anything else....Show more →
Don’t sideways reference what I said in quotes if it’s not an exact quote. I didn’t say *everyone* over 50.
brick33308 wrote:
Fred, how long does it take for the Kolari modification to be completed on the A7CR and what does it cost? Also, is auto focus achieved with a techart adapter?
When I did it, I bought a used A7CR from the buy and sell board and had the service done. My total cost for the camera plus the mod was $2,200. The service was $400 at the time, but I think it's now $450. Turnaround is usually 2–4 weeks. Mine came back in 2 weeks, but you can pay extra to rush it.
brick33308 wrote:
great thanks. And I assume AF is achieved on M lenses with the techart adapter?
Yes, and I recommend the EA9 version. (latest)
Also, an important step to make sure colors look accurate after the conversion (since the coverglass is changed) is to fine-tune the camera’s white balance for AUTO and all presets. Here’s the setting I calculated and use.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Yes, and I recommend the EA9 version. (latest)
Also, an important step to make sure colors look accurate after the conversion (since the coverglass is changed) is to fine-tune the camera’s white balance for AUTO and all presets. Here’s the setting I calculated and use.
thanks Fred. It's my understanding that after Kolari modification, the white balance issue is significantly reduced from what it would have been shooting M lenses on the Sony without the modification. Specifically I think after Kolari modification, the white balance issue is with lenses 28mm and wider, and that the effect is largely toward the edges with it being not really an issue center frame. Do you concur?
