stgrove wrote:
Incorrect fact though since nothing new for 90 days while negotiations are underway. You list yourself as being located in NL/ Austria/Spain which is all in common market so why worry?
10% universal, worldwide right now. That's not nothing, particularly when considering expensive photo gear.
Tariq Gibran wrote:
10% universal, worldwide right now. That's not nothing, particularly when considering expensive photo gear.
I
Leica has for a number of years already been dealing with a 25% tariff on lenses manufactured in Germany. This is one of the main reason that Leica shifted production of many lenses to Portugal which are not subject to this tariff. In some Leica lenses the exact same lens manufactured in Germany costs more than the one manufactured in Portugal.
johnvanr wrote:
Love to, but you can’t ignore the fact that they have an impact on every single piece of new gear right now. That’s not politics, that’s just a fact.
I completely understand where you're coming from, but there are plenty of other places like rumor sites where that kind of discussion can happen. I'd really like to keep FM as a bit of a refuge for us, where we can focus purely on enjoying photography, whether as a hobby or profession, without the distraction of current headlines.
I believe Leica was sourcing from Portugal even earlier, as far back as 2010-2012. Dr. Kaufmann indicated there was enough of a labor arbitrage - Portugal was basically 50% of the cost of Germany and there was a good labor force trained in watchmaking. They basically only finished the products in Germany so they could say “made in Germany”.
1bwana1 wrote:
I
Leica has for a number of years already been dealing with a 25% tariff on lenses manufactured in Germany. This is one of the main reason that Leica shifted production of many lenses to Portugal which are not subject to this tariff. In some Leica lenses the exact same lens manufactured in Germany costs more than the one manufactured in Portugal.
No matter what the worldwide economy will affect or not affect, the rule of the game remains simple and the same for Leica:
+ Keep supply low enough to avoid price decreases by potential over-supply.
+ Leica is luxury brand and pricing is according to this - even if the camera can be manufactured at lower cost (in case of the M11-V with EVF instead of optical/mechanical rangefinder).
+ Sell less for more as shown in the monochrome and M-D versions.
+ Avoid in-house competition within camera and lens segments (or we learned our lesson from the film Leica/Minolta CL).
In sum get ready for a $9K price tag for the M11-V.
stgrove wrote:
Incorrect fact though since nothing new for 90 days while negotiations are underway. You list yourself as being located in NL/ Austria/Spain which is all in common market so why worry?
The 10% tariff is still in force. Caring and worrying are not mutually exclusive.
Fred Miranda wrote:
I completely understand where you're coming from, but there are plenty of other places like rumor sites where that kind of discussion can happen. I'd really like to keep FM as a bit of a refuge for us, where we can focus purely on enjoying photography, whether as a hobby or profession, without the distraction of current headlines.
Thank you!! Appreciate you trying to keep this photography centric and not degenerate into political drama
Fred Miranda wrote:
I completely understand where you're coming from, but there are plenty of other places like rumor sites where that kind of discussion can happen. I'd really like to keep FM as a bit of a refuge for us, where we can focus purely on enjoying photography, whether as a hobby or profession, without the distraction of current headlines.
I agree with your overall thinking, but there’s still a difference between discussing the pros and cons of the tariffs (which belongs somewhere else) and the results for us of those tariffs. The latter to me is akin to the many comments in the past of Europeans, Canadians and Australians that gear is expensive compared to the US. That’s not politics, that’s just a factual statement. And facts matter, which is why it’s important that people have the correct information over which tariffs are in effect right now. It’s not much different from foreign exchange values and their impact on gear prices.
Fred Miranda wrote:
I completely understand where you're coming from, but there are plenty of other places like rumor sites where that kind of discussion can happen. I'd really like to keep FM as a bit of a refuge for us, where we can focus purely on enjoying photography, whether as a hobby or profession, without the distraction of current headlines.
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johnvanr wrote:
I agree with your overall thinking, but there’s still a difference between discussing the pros and cons of the tariffs (which belongs somewhere else) and the results for us of those tariffs. The latter to me is akin to the many comments in the past of Europeans, Canadians and Australians that gear is expensive compared to the US. That’s not politics, that’s just a factual statement. And facts matter, which is why it’s important that people have the correct information over which tariffs are in effect right now. It’s not much different from foreign exchange values and their impact on gear prices....Show more →
You’re making a valid point but, in practice, I think any such discussion inevitably strays into the pros & cons, or whatever. So I think Fred is right to make this request. In any event, even the effect of tariffs is perhaps somewhat off-topic in a thread about the putative M11-V announcement.
(And, at the risk of going further off topic, I’m inclined to think that even making factual statements about what tariffs are currently in force is fraught with difficulties, given that it will probably all change tomorrow …. )
Fred Miranda wrote:
I completely understand where you're coming from, but there are plenty of other places like rumor sites where that kind of discussion can happen. I'd really like to keep FM as a bit of a refuge for us, where we can focus purely on enjoying photography, whether as a hobby or profession, without the distraction of current headlines.
Amen! Thanks, Fred, for saying this.
Today was actually my first peek into this thread. (I had to get our US income tax situation, an annual anguish and aggravation, “squared-away.”) My level of curiosity, on this subject, is quite low. I have no “wishes,” and no emotional energy to devote to the subject. There is, of course, the potential of well-preserved, pre-owned M10 Monochrom and M10-R cameras becoming more available, possibly at lower asking prices.
Andrew CD wrote:
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You’re making a valid point but, in practice, I think any such discussion inevitably strays into the pros & cons, or whatever. So I think Fred is right to make this request. In any event, even the effect of tariffs is perhaps somewhat off-topic in a thread about the putative M11-V announcement.
(And, at the risk of going further off topic, I’m inclined to think that even making factual statements about what tariffs are currently in force is fraught with difficulties, given that it will probably all change tomorrow …. )
Then the issue is to not let it stray beyond the facts as currently in place. For my part, I think I have kept myself in check and not expressed my opinions about the tariffs, but only the repercussions.
johnvanr wrote:
Then the issue is to not let it stray beyond the facts as currently in place. For my part, I think I have kept myself in check and not expressed my opinions about the tariffs, but only the repercussions.
Unfortunately we're living an a world where facts have become offensive.
johnvanr wrote:
I agree with your overall thinking, but there’s still a difference between discussing the pros and cons of the tariffs (which belongs somewhere else) and the results for us of those tariffs. The latter to me is akin to the many comments in the past of Europeans, Canadians and Australians that gear is expensive compared to the US. That’s not politics, that’s just a factual statement. And facts matter, which is why it’s important that people have the correct information over which tariffs are in effect right now. It’s not much different from foreign exchange values and their impact on gear prices....Show more →
Someone else mentioned earlier that what's being discussed are just facts, so why discourage the conversation? I understand that viewpoint, and I'm not here to dictate what can or can't be discussed, as long as it stays reasonably connected to photography..
That said, my point still stands. This isn't directed at anyone personally. The topic, while rooted in current event facts, often stir strong and sometimes divisive emotions. It also tends to move away from what brings most of us here in the first place. As a moderator, I've seen how quickly this specific subject can spiral into heated arguments, some of which become uncivil and require my intervention. They also tend to create unnecessary tension among members - which we probably all get enough of outside FM as it is.
For those reasons, I'm asking that we steer away from this kind of topic moving forward. I really don’t know how to be any clearer. I'm closing my part in this conversation here. Thank you for listening.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Someone else mentioned earlier that what's being discussed are just facts, so why discourage the conversation? I understand that viewpoint, and I'm not here to dictate what can or can't be discussed, as long as it stays reasonably connected to photography..
That said, my point still stands. This isn't directed at anyone personally. The topic, while rooted in current event facts, often stir strong and sometimes divisive emotions. It also tends to move away from what brings most of us here in the first place. As a moderator, I've seen how quickly this specific subject can spiral into heated arguments, some of which become uncivil and require my intervention. They also tend to create unnecessary tension among members - which we probably all get enough of outside FM as it is.
For those reasons, I'm asking that we steer away from this kind of topic moving forward. I really don’t know how to be any clearer. I'm closing my part in this conversation here. Thank you for listening. ...Show more →
Thank you Fred. I think the difficulty is that while the facts about what tariffs are in place doesn't have to contentious, even the short term implications (whether those tariffs will lead to higher prices) are quite contentious and the long-term implications are even more contentious. On even the short term implications it appears that the chairman of the federal reserve in the US and the president of the US have a very stark disagreement. Given that and many other very public disagreements, it seems very likely that discussing tariffs will lead to sharp disagreements and contentious discussions. I encourage people to have those discussions. Just not here.
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