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Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera

  
 
1bwana1
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p.4 #1 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


I was speaking to someone from Leica yesterday. The conversation turned to the M12, what it might have, and when it may be coming.

No really meaningful information about new features was given except that this person viewed IBIS as never be able to fit in an M. Second that if any EVF/RF viewfinder is coming it will be released as it's own model along side of the RF only version. Makes sense.

As for timing and relavant to this thread it was this person's opinion that it is more than 2 years away. Leica will release a series of special editions during the last couple of years of a models life span. It is part of their marketing, sales, and lifecycle system. So expect a series of special editions over the next couple of years including the traditional Reporter, Safari, Celebrity, and Affiliate, releases. After that, then expect the new model generation. Again, makes sense.

To be clear, none of this is official Leica information. It is only the opinion of a Leica insider who is very familiar with the Leica company culture and how they do things.



Jan 24, 2025 at 09:30 AM
Stephen G
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p.4 #2 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


RustyBug wrote:
I'll likely never get a collector's edition, but ... this is probably one of the least appealing versions.

I mean, some of the others have been way off my radar for aesthetic, but this one not only doesn't call to me ... it also looks "slapped together" in way that kinda goes against my sense of quality of "well thought" design ethos that Leica is regarded for. You know, spare parts laying around, let's just cobble them together and slap them on kinda thing. That, and the fonts / spacing / size ... well, anyway.

But, I reckon like most other
...Show more

You know I've never bought one either, just on a pure value basis since by the time they are out I can get the regular edition used for thousands less.
Plus most of my Ms have been bought used, with all of my problematic electronics failed, repair-requiring Ms being ones I bought NEW..

That said, its interesting seeing how even used special edition cameras seem to hold their values next to regular editions.
M10P reporter/safari/ghost/white seem to have recent sales for about $1k+ more than a similar condition M10P. And since there are fewer they do seem to sell faster than the way a regular M10 can languish on the B&S forums for some time.

So if it's a design I'd enjoy aesthetically, and it's not too flashy, I'd probably pick up a special edition now. I do like some of the designs that are sufficiently analog looking that it doesn't really catch peoples eye as a modern expensive piece of kit. Amusingly the Hasselblad 907X has that effect.



Jan 24, 2025 at 10:58 AM
RustyBug
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p.4 #3 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


1bwana1 wrote:
I was speaking to someone from Leica yesterday. The conversation turned to the M12, what it might have, and when it may be coming.

No really meaningful information about new features was given except that this person viewed IBIS as never be able to fit in an M. Second that if any EVF/RF viewfinder is coming it will be released as it's own model along side of the RF only version. Makes sense.

As for timing and relavant to this thread it was this person's opinion that it is more than 2 years away. Leica will release a series of special
...Show more

I can see how the "spaced out" timing of special editions can keep "raising the conversation" of Leica, while continuing onward into their future developments ... just so there isn't a lull in keeping their name in the conversation. Almost a distraction / filibuster / stall tactic of sorts, just waiting till they're ready for the next iteration of conversation in models under development.

As to the IBIS thing ... resurrect the M240 body, and I bet the Leica engineers could make it fit in that body. Not saying I expect that they will, just that I think it stands a reasonable chance of being feasible, if they wanted to.



Jan 24, 2025 at 11:19 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.4 #4 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


RustyBug wrote:
I can see how the "spaced out" timing of special editions can keep "raising the conversation" of Leica, while continuing onward into their future developments ... just so there isn't a lull in keeping their name in the conversation. Almost a distraction / filibuster / stall tactic of sorts, just waiting till they're ready for the next iteration of conversation in models under development.

As to the IBIS thing ... resurrect the M240 body, and I bet the Leica engineers could make it fit in that body. Not saying I expect that they will, just that I think it stands a
...Show more

If the M12 doesn't have IBIS or an EVF, what will be its main appeal? The M11 already offers a 60MP sensor and plenty of electronic features that can complicate our shooting choices. So, where does Leica go from here? Do they make it even more tech-heavy, or take a step back to basics by removing features and possibly making the body slightly smaller, matching the size of the M-P?

As for the sensor, introducing a stacked sensor would be a great idea. It would allow the electronic shutter to be used effectively, even for moving subjects, not just static ones.



Jan 24, 2025 at 12:02 PM
1bwana1
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p.4 #5 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


RustyBug wrote:
I can see how the "spaced out" timing of special editions can keep "raising the conversation" of Leica, while continuing onward into their future developments ... just so there isn't a lull in keeping their name in the conversation. Almost a distraction / filibuster / stall tactic of sorts, just waiting till they're ready for the next iteration of conversation in models under development.

As to the IBIS thing ... resurrect the M240 body, and I bet the Leica engineers could make it fit in that body. Not saying I expect that they will, just that I think it stands a
...Show more

Actually the use of a wider body like the M240 that would enable IBIS was brought up by the Leica person. Leica got so much criticism for the wider body that will never happen again was stated with authority. The conclusion was that IBIS will never be in an M body.

But as they say, "never say never".



Jan 24, 2025 at 12:08 PM
Stephen G
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p.4 #6 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


Fred Miranda wrote:
If the M12 doesn't have IBIS or an EVF, what will be its main appeal? The M11 already offers a 60MP sensor and plenty of electronic features that can complicate our shooting choices. So, where does Leica go from here? Do they make it even more tech-heavy, or take a step back to basics by removing features and possibly making the body slightly smaller, matching the size of the M-P?

As for the sensor, introducing a stacked sensor would be a great idea. It would allow the electronic shutter to be used effectively, even for moving subjects, not just static
...Show more

They could take a strategy of bifurcating the M line with the M12, with one line continuing down the technical improvements of the M11, and the other being more of a return to simplicity/addressing some of the M11 complaints.

So the technical one they could try and shoehorn IBIS, much better external EVF (or even an internal).. maybe add video (like M240), the whole lot.

On the Classic line they could go back to an M10 style shutter mechanism, etc.

That said maybe they don't do enough volume to have such dramatically different Ms under production simultaneously?



Jan 24, 2025 at 12:19 PM
1bwana1
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p.4 #7 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


Fred Miranda wrote:
If the M12 doesn't have IBIS or an EVF, what will be its main appeal? The M11 already offers a 60MP sensor and plenty of electronic features that can complicate our shooting choices. So, where does Leica go from here? Do they make it even more tech-heavy, or take a step back to basics by removing features and possibly making the body slightly smaller, matching the size of the M-P?

As for the sensor, introducing a stacked sensor would be a great idea. It would allow the electronic shutter to be used effectively, even for moving subjects, not just static
...Show more

We discussed this as well. I speculated on what in the absence of IBIS, or Hybrid EVF would compel me to upgrade from my M11. I was at a loss. The idea of a stacked sensor was brought up. Originally I was of the opinion that the way I shoot my M the speed of a stacked sensor was not of real interest to me. Besides freezing action, it was pointed out that there are other advantages from a high speed sensor capable of shooting very fast shutter speeds electronically. One case mentioned is when you want to shoot wide open in bright light. A very fast shutter speed would reduce the likelihood that you would need neutral density filters. Other advantages were also brought up. So, in my opinion this may be a direction Leica is at least exploring.

Would I upgrade an M just for a stacked sensor. Probably not. I would prefer sensor improvements in Dynamic Range and low light over that.



Jan 24, 2025 at 12:19 PM
1bwana1
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p.4 #8 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


Stephen G wrote:
That said maybe they don't do enough volume to have such dramatically different Ms under production simultaneously?


I was left with the distinct impression that there would be both "classic" Range Finder M version, and Hybrid EVF View Finder M12 models available.



Jan 24, 2025 at 12:23 PM
retrofocus
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p.4 #9 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


Stephen G wrote:
.. maybe add video (like M240), the whole lot.



Lots is possible but this one I would exclude with high certainty from the list. It is no coincidence that the video capability present in the M 240 series disappeared with the M10 - 4 years after the first SL camera was released which focused on video capability. Clearly Leica wanted to avoid in-house competition. With LiveView in the M10 present, there is no technical reason to remove video capability - even if it is in a reduced form.

With the SL series being behind in sales compared to M- and Q-series, Leica will certainly not add video into a future digital M.
This said, it is one reason why I keep using my M 240 based cameras - I like the option to use video even I only rarely use it.



Jan 24, 2025 at 12:49 PM
Desmolicious
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p.4 #10 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


Fred Miranda wrote:
If the M12 doesn't have IBIS or an EVF, what will be its main appeal?


It will no longer have the ISO dial. Which will of course be brought back on the M13.




Jan 24, 2025 at 12:56 PM
 


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p.4 #11 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


1bwana1 wrote:
The idea of a stacked sensor was brought up. Originally I was of the opinion that the way I shoot my M the speed of a stacked sensor was not of real interest to me. Besides freezing action, it was pointed out that there are other advantages from a high speed sensor capable of shooting very fast shutter speeds electronically. One case mentioned is when you want to shoot wide open in bright light. A very fast shutter speed would reduce the likelihood that you would need neutral density filters. Other advantages were also brought up. So, in my opinion
...Show more

Shooting wide open in bright light without the need for ND filters has been possible since the M11, due to its electronic shutter allowing for faster speeds than the mechanical 1/4000s.

Thanks for your insight, Steve. A stacked sensor with a fast readout isn't necessary to freeze action...that's the job of a high shutter speed. What a fast readout sensor does, however, is reduce the jello effect, which can occur not only in "action" shots but in anything that isn't static, like street photography. This happens to be one of the primary uses of the Leica M body.



Jan 24, 2025 at 01:22 PM
stgrove
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p.4 #12 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


Speculation is interesting, but it is just speculation often based on common sense and a want list.


Jan 24, 2025 at 02:30 PM
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p.4 #13 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


And in the future, I want to celebrate 100 years of me buying my first Leica..


Jan 24, 2025 at 02:46 PM
Desmolicious
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p.4 #14 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


I'm waiting for the 100 years of Leicas not scratching film. We are on year one, so it will be a while.


Jan 24, 2025 at 03:27 PM
panos.v
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p.4 #15 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera




Desmolicious wrote:
I'm waiting for the 100 years of Leicas not scratching film. We are on year one, so it will be a while.


Do you think they have a "years without scratching film" counter in the factory?



Jan 24, 2025 at 03:56 PM
Desmolicious
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p.4 #16 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


panos.v wrote:
Do you think they have a "years without scratching film" counter in the factory?


I think it is like at my local hardware store, where they have that big sign "15 days without a work injury".

I just hope it is not written in blood the way it is at my store.



Jan 24, 2025 at 05:13 PM
1bwana1
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p.4 #17 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


Desmolicious wrote:
I'm waiting for the 100 years of Leicas not scratching film. We are on year one, so it will be a while.


Yeah but you live in Dog Years so it goes by quickly...



Jan 24, 2025 at 08:54 PM
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p.4 #18 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


Fred Miranda wrote:
So, where does Leica go from here?


One thing I've noticed about Leica iterations ... they are often times a conglomerate of "tweaks", rather than a revolutionary change. Opting for the "the sum is greater than the parts", kind of thing.


Playing a bit off of Huss' with the ISO button ... I'd like to see them go back to a tactile timer on the switch (or other non-menu based physical button, dial, etc.) that they took off of the M240 series. Without IBIS ... a timer is an "old school" technique for slower hand held shooting (when timing the capture isn't of the essence), since you only need to hold the camera steady, without pressing the shutter.

I hate it when I use the timer (handheld / table top / tripod / etc.) and forget to go back into the menu and reset it to normal. When it's on a physical switch, I tend to not forget, and it is too easy to put it back. Of course, there's probably no one making much noise about this one.


I'd like to see them bring back a 40MP sensor ... M10M / M10R ... but with it being a BSI. Put in Double Resolution (instead of Triple Resolution) and you've got a 20 / 40. I guess a 47MP (Q2 / SL2) but with BSI would work well for a 24/48 combo. On the tech side, I wish they would let you program the readout speed to your desired choice. I mean, depending on FPS choices, it can change bit rate ... and does so based on programming. Having manual override for bit rate ... even to the level of having a 16 bit option (yes, I know most folks don't want that slow of a readout) would take the IQ to the next level when folks want to carry a Leica instead of a Hassy / Fuji MF. 16 bit, 47MP, Double Resolution down to 24MP would probably be very clean.

On the RF front ... I know that folks are clamoring for years for an EVF (and that may come to fruition in a different model, someday). BUT, I'd like to see a BIG improvement in the RF. I think if they could figure out a way to retain it as an optical RF, but make a quantum leap in the RF experience (I'd like to be on that R&D team), that would be (imo) a bigger game changer / enhancer / improvement than sensor improvements.

Yeah, sensors are iteratively better >>> pushing toward plateaus. At which point they are either going to head into the stack sensor / faster readouts (i.e. lower IQ), or slower readouts for better IQ. Personally, I'd like to see an option to manually select 12 bit / 14 bit / 16 bit ... letting the user decide whether or not they are concerned by the corresponding readout speed for their use case.

Yup ... 16 bit M ... ummm, Hassy who, Fuji who.
12 or 14 always in your hip pocket, too, when you want something a bit "quicker".


Oh, and a tilting display wouldn't hurt, either. It's already been well received in the Q3 / SL3, and it's (imo) minimal enough that it's impact is kinda like how the M11 changed the bottom plate design. I'd really like a quantum leap in the RF, but if the optical RF doesn't make a big jump, then I think folks could keep the optical RF and have a tilting LCD (instead of an EVF).

And ... put the blades back, or some kind of "dark slide" barrier to the sensor for lens changes to help with dust.


Mid-MP sensor (40/47) with BSI
12 / 14 / 16 bit manual setting option ... i.e. choose your readout speed.
BIG improvement to the (optical) RF viewing experience
Tilt LCD
Timer switch / button (inset in the middle of the ISO dial, or under the shutter release, etc.)
Shutter blades / dark slide


Others might want for the EVF and IBIS ... but, even without EVF / IBIS, I think there's room to make the M12 a bump in user experience.



Jan 24, 2025 at 09:10 PM
widi5006
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p.4 #19 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


BastianK wrote:
A special edition for a country where now photography with everything but a smartphone is pretty much forbidden (and enforced) everywhere.

Quite ironic.


I was just in Dubai and took a lot of photos with my Sony A1 all over the city and had no problems whatsoever....nobody even gave me a second look at all....




Jan 24, 2025 at 09:54 PM
Desmolicious
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p.4 #20 · Leica M11 '100 YEARS OF LEICA' anniversary edition camera


widi5006 wrote:
I was just in Dubai and took a lot of photos with my Sony A1 all over the city and had no problems whatsoever....nobody even gave me a second look at all....



To be fair, no-one considers a Sony to be a camera.



Jan 24, 2025 at 10:23 PM
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