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Archive 2024 · Why are Leicas so expensive?
  
 
johnvanr
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p.8 #1 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


RustyBug wrote:
There is another piece to the "pricing puzzle" that often goes overlooked.

What is the wage that Leica pays its employees? My understanding is that part of the ethos of the company is to pay their employees a "good" wage. That translates into higher overhead than another company that operates in a different economy.

Some folks value the Leica ethos regarding their employees, and are good with that having additional costs factor into the pricing. I mean, you can go to Waffle House, Denny's or IHOP and have a meal prepared by folks making a wage that is minimal. OR, you can...Show more →

I surely hope it’s a different chicken and egg, too.


Dec 21, 2024 at 09:20 AM
1bwana1
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p.8 #2 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


I once heard an interview with Dr Kaufman where he said that Leica tries to price their cameras in line with what the original Leica cameras were priced at. He said that this pricing philosophy has been consistent throughout leica's history. If I remember correctly he said that a Leica M camera, with a single lens has always cost about 2 1/2 times the average monthly professional German Salary.

Currently based on this analysis we can say that the annual salary of this type is around 55,000 Euro a year. This equates to about 4,583.33 EU or $4,812.49 per month. Doing the math, $4,812.49 X 2.5 = $12,031.25

https://www.learngermanonline.org/salaries-and-living-costs-in-germany/

The current price of an M11 is $8,995.00. the cost of a 50mm Summicron lens $2,995. This puts the price at $11,990.00.

That is incredibly close to what Dr Kaufmann said. When doing the calculation I was actually surprised by how close it worked out. So I think that this market pricing positioning may make sense and might be at least as important as cost to produce. You will notice that by American standards wages are actually lower.

Anyway an interesting exercise for the Leica pricing discussion. By this it seems that Leicas in really inflation adjusted money are the same price they have always been. The Japanese manufactures have essentially lowered camera costs rather than Leica raising them. Another similar cycle appears to be taking place between Japanese and Chinese camera manufactures.
Dec 21, 2024 at 12:42 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.8 #3 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


One thing that I really don't understand is why non Leica folks keep coming into Leica threads try to convince Leica owners that they screwed up. And that Leicas are just some kind of camera bling. I really wish someone could expalin that.

Agree Steve. Leica's have ALWAYS been expensive. As have Hasselblads and Deardorff view cameras. No one is forcing people to buy Leica's.


Dec 21, 2024 at 12:58 PM
1bwana1
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p.8 #4 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


airfrogusmc wrote:
One thing that I really don't understand is why non Leica folks keep coming into Leica threads try to convince Leica owners that they screwed up. And that Leicas are just some kind of camera bling. I really wish someone could expalin that.

Agree Steve. Leica's have ALWAYS been expensive. As have Hasselblads and Deardorff view cameras. No one is forcing people to buy Leica's.

I will try to explain. People like to discuss things. Especially subjects having to do with things they enjoy, like hobbies. Everyone sees things from their own little hilltop. That hill is largely constructed of their own experiences, interests, preferences, and finances. If you read the box specifications and compare the big brands with leica, then choosing a Leica will seem to be a screw up to many. If you value experiences more than specifications, then for many, Leica doesn't appear to be a screw up.

The shot answer to your question is "Human Nature" is why they do it. That isn't going to change. Enjoy it, it is often very funny to read what they post.
Dec 21, 2024 at 01:07 PM
RustyBug
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p.8 #5 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


airfrogusmc wrote:
One thing that I really don't understand is why non Leica folks keep coming into Leica threads try to convince Leica owners that they screwed up. And that Leicas are just some kind of camera bling. I really wish someone could expalin that.

Agree Steve. Leica's have ALWAYS been expensive. As have Hasselblads and Deardorff view cameras. No one is forcing people to buy Leica's.

I always equate this to the person that drives a Chevy into a Ford, BMW, Mercedes, Dodge, etc. shop after hours, where all the mechanics are hangin' out, talkin' shop and havin' a cold one. The Chevy owner then proceeds to tell all the mechanics why brand X sucks.


Conversely, go to a (good) car show, and avid enthusiasts have a respect and regard for the variety ... and a positive curiosity about the ones that others have brought to the show.


I could provide a detailed explanation of WHY that is ... but, Steve already summed it up.

Some folks take great pride in being expert interlopers ... others, not so much.






Edited on Dec 21, 2024 at 01:22 PM · View previous versions
Dec 21, 2024 at 01:14 PM
OregonSun
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p.8 #6 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


Hahaha, most of the posts in this thread are from Leica owners rationalizing their ownership, not people telling them "they screwed up". Always funny to see how easily riled up they get

I'm sure Leicas are great cameras and they obviously fill a unique niche in terms of their simplicity and user experience.

They are also luxury goods that some people buy for non-photographic reasons, which is the main reason they are so expensive.


Dec 21, 2024 at 01:22 PM
RustyBug
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p.8 #7 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


OregonSun wrote:
Hahaha, most of the posts in this thread are from Leica owners rationalizing their ownership, not people telling them "they screwed up". Always funny to see how easily riled up they get

I'm sure Leicas are great cameras and they obviously fill a unique niche in terms of their simplicity and user experience.

They are also luxury goods that some people buy for non-photographic reasons, which is the main reason they are so expensive.


There's a difference between folks "rationalizing" ... and giving well thought, legitimate, honest answers to folks who have asked well thought, legitimate, honest questions.

Ask an honest question, you deserve an honest answer ... even, if it is a subjective one. As long as it is honest, that's not what I'd consider to be "rationalizing". Rather, it's sharing one's perspective. I seriously doubt many Leica owners are so insecure to their choices, that they feel compelled to rationalize it. But, when folks ask ... they are willing to share their insights.

Half-empty vs. half-full. If you think folks are rationalizing ... it kinda suggests that you aren't recognizing that folks are trying to be good members to answer an honest question with their honest answer. It's not a matter of being "riled up" ... it's a matter of trying to help answer the question being asked by someone without the experience of owning / using / buying Leica. That's just trying to be helpful. Which, btw ... often includes a recommendation for folks to try it for themselves.

Explanations in lieu of experience will always come up on the short end of things for providing comprehensive understanding. But, in a forum such as ours ... all we have is our explanations to try and help our fellow members understand what they are asking about. Imo, that's a far cry from "rationalization".


You ask me why I like something ... I'm gonna tell you why I like something. I don't see anything rationalizing about that.





Edited on Dec 21, 2024 at 01:37 PM · View previous versions
Dec 21, 2024 at 01:29 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.8 #8 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


If you go back and read you will see that some of the owners are responding to non Leica owners about issues that the non Leica owners have only read about. As with any electronic and mechanical device there will be some that experience issues. If you go into any brand specific forum you will find pages of folks complaining about bad experiences they've had with that brand.

No more luxury than a Hasselblad or Phase. They are tools that fit better with some than others. Don't like them or think that they are to expensive then don't buy them. Lots of other camera brands out there. Lotsa room to move around. But only one true rangefinder that only shoot B&W. Nice to have that choice.

BTW I don't gp into __________ threads are try and convince those folks how much of a mistake they've made.




Dec 21, 2024 at 01:31 PM
madNbad
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p.8 #9 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


The Leica M viewfinder shows the scene in front of you unaltered. You're not watching a tiny TV screen or reflected from a mirror. The M viewfinder allows you to see subjects as they enter the frame, which can lead to some interesting photos. The rangefinder guarantees accurate focus even in low light. Plus the camera with a lens is compact and often weighs less than many autofocus lenses. They work well for the type of journalistic photography they were designed for and hold their value, Are they expensive? Definitely.
Dec 21, 2024 at 01:54 PM
1bwana1
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p.8 #10 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


OregonSun wrote:
Hahaha, most of the posts in this thread are from Leica owners rationalizing their ownership, not people telling them "they screwed up". Always funny to see how easily riled up they get

I'm sure Leicas are great cameras and they obviously fill a unique niche in terms of their simplicity and user experience.

They are also luxury goods that some people buy for non-photographic reasons, which is the main reason they are so expensive.

A perfect example of what we have been talking about here.


Dec 21, 2024 at 02:01 PM
raizans
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p.8 #11 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


airfrogusmc wrote:
Leica's have ALWAYS been expensive. As have Hasselblads and Deardorff view cameras. No one is forcing people to buy Leica's.

Actually, Leica’s used to be mainstream cameras, priced accordingly. Only in the sense that photography is generally a more expensive hobby could you say Leica’s have “always been expensive.” It is only recently that Leica became a luxury brand with proportionally higher prices. Nobody forces you to buy a Leica, but somebody forces you to pay more money to buy a Leica. 🙄
Dec 21, 2024 at 02:44 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.8 #12 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


When I bought my Canon F-1s in the late 1970s early 80s Lieca M was twice as expensive.


Dec 21, 2024 at 02:46 PM
johnvanr
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p.8 #13 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


A good thing I currently own Leica, Olympus, Panasonic, Ricoh, Canon, Fuji and Nikon. I get to play in all the forums, except Sony. I even use film cameras, so that’s an extra forum.

In all honesty, there are very few cameras I own that I can rationalize without some mental acrobatics. I’d probably be fine with any 20+ mp camera with interchangeable lens mount.
Dec 21, 2024 at 02:52 PM
johnvanr
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p.8 #14 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


raizans wrote:
Actually, Leica’s used to be mainstream cameras, priced accordingly. Only in the sense that photography is generally a more expensive hobby could you say Leica’s have “always been expensive.” It is only recently that Leica became a luxury brand with proportionally higher prices. Nobody forces you to buy a Leica, but somebody forces you to pay more money to buy a Leica. 🙄

I cannot remember a time that Leica wasn’t more expensive than other cameras.


Dec 21, 2024 at 02:54 PM
OregonSun
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p.8 #15 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


RustyBug wrote:
There's a difference between folks "rationalizing" ... and giving well thought, legitimate, honest answers to folks who have asked well thought, legitimate, honest questions.

Ask an honest question, you deserve an honest answer ... even, if it is a subjective one. As long as it is honest, that's not what I'd consider to be "rationalizing". Rather, it's sharing one's perspective. I seriously doubt many Leica owners are so insecure to their choices, that they feel compelled to rationalize it. But, when folks ask ... they are willing to share their insights.

Half-empty vs. half-full. If you think folks are rationalizing ... it...Show more →

Rationalize/explain/justify, whatever.

The title of this thread is "Why are Leicas so Expensive?" not "Why do Leica Owners Love Their Cameras so Much".
Dec 21, 2024 at 03:05 PM
catacore
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p.8 #16 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


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Edited on Jan 13, 2025 at 07:40 AM · View previous versions
Dec 21, 2024 at 03:11 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.8 #17 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


catacore wrote:
Once again, I am here because I want to buy, once more, a digital Leica M-mount camera. Not to write things against the brand, or so. Yes, I do think that, for the price paid, a Leica should have a very low failure rate and a very good after sales service. Which, based on what Leica users say, it is not the case. I do not have experienced these things, they were written on forums by Leica users, not by Leica non-users. I am aware of this issues and, instead of negating them, I want to take them into consideration...Show more →

First there is no perfect system. And if you want to look through the lens then rangefinders are clearly not what you should be buying. The reason I would guess many own and love rangefinders is they are no looking through the lens.

Meyerowitz says it well.

From 1:30 on but the entire peice is good
Dec 21, 2024 at 03:19 PM
catacore
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p.8 #18 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


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Edited on Jan 13, 2025 at 07:40 AM · View previous versions
Dec 21, 2024 at 03:24 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.8 #19 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


From what you've expressed, a rangefinder is probably a camera that you should not buy. They are not for everyone. Do I wish they were less expensive, of course. But they are not. One thing that I learned a very long time ago is that if I didn't try to buy everything then I had enough to buy the things I really wanted. If I had every nickel for what I spent settling I could have bought the more expensive things many times over. And I don't change gear a lot. I still have my Canon F-1s. Had my Hasselblad 500 C/Ms for a long time. Had my M9 Monochrom for 9 years. I will not be replacing my M10s or M 10 Mono anytime soon. No reason.

Edited on Dec 21, 2024 at 05:30 PM · View previous versions
Dec 21, 2024 at 03:38 PM
Knut.
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p.8 #20 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


retrofocus wrote:
I am native German as mentioned above but I kind of agree with you. I have Leica cameras and lenses, but it is just one brand of several ones I am using. To me all the hype around Leica which is well marketed is not working. I would feel uncomfortable being surrounded in a meeting only by Leica enthusiasts. I personally believe that Leica made the best rigid and reliable gear in the 50s with the M3 followed by M2 and M4 - and the decay kind of started when they ventured using cheaper parts causing rangefinder flare etc. This...Show more →

I‘m German myself. But I do note, that my father had to pay a month’s salary for a Pentax in the 70ties. With some lenses the price could easily reach 2-3 months salary. (Leica prices were not much higher than Pentax at that time).

Now you can get a camera for a fraction of a month’s salary and a camera with lenses for a month salary. Relative prices have clearly dropped for all makers, except Leica. Their prices in relation to salaries have stayed rather stable over many decades now. It is rather the willingness to pay for photography that has changed.


(Anyone remember how expensive film was, when you shot, developed and printed a dozen rolls or so?)
Dec 21, 2024 at 03:42 PM
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