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Archive 2024 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

Desmolicious
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p.1 #1 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

Title of the video. Actually entertaining/may be educational. And not a troll.

Dec 15, 2024 at 11:17 AM

ZdevilH1
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p.1 #2 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

I caught this last night, it was entertaining. I've watched his videos before on automobile lineage, funny dude.

Dec 15, 2024 at 11:21 AM

retrofocus
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p.1 #3 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

Leica Q is mentioned with superior mirrorless technology - yes, but Leica, please, make it with exchangeable lens (M-) mount!

Dec 15, 2024 at 11:44 AM

brick33308
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p.1 #4 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

retrofocus wrote:
Leica Q is mentioned with superior mirrorless technology - yes, but Leica, please, make it with exchangeable lens (M-) mount!

Answer: maybe because that would make the Q a manual focus cam.

But they did make an interchangeable Q-like camera with the CL. Yes it's a crop sensor, not FF, but wow it performs brilliantly. And yes, with a tiny M-L adapter, all my M mount lenses fit and work flawlessly on the CL, albeit manual focus. And when you want it to be auto focus, there are a bunch of Leica TL lenses that work natively auto focus with the CL - like my TL 23 which is the FF equivalent of 35mm (which length I like better than the current Q3 or the Q343).

Just this morning I posted images shot with my CL (https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1779165/33#16707554) and my 35 lux steel rim reissue via M-L adapter (shown below). I don't understand why Leica abandoned the CL.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-8LBS73s/0/MWmqfCkDdhV4TZ2kH4hrzkLJjw28vNfMSFDDVVNRJ/X4/i-8LBS73s-X4.jpg

Dec 15, 2024 at 12:10 PM

1bwana1
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p.1 #5 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

It seems to me tha Leica doesn't compete well in the AF mirrorless camera category. There are so many better options available at much less expensive prices. Leica needs to fill a unique niche to justify prices.

Dec 15, 2024 at 12:26 PM

SlowDriver
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p.1 #6 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

brick33308 wrote:
I don't understand why Leica abandoned the CL.

You are definitely not the only one...

Dec 15, 2024 at 12:41 PM

theHUN
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p.1 #7 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

1bwana1 wrote:
... Leica needs to fill a unique niche to justify prices.

With the Q2M (native full frame monochome with AF) they filled that niche for me. But I still bought second hand.

Dec 15, 2024 at 01:17 PM

RustyBug
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p.1 #8 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

SlowDriver wrote:
You are definitely not the only one...

+1 for the CL2 ... sold my CL early, in anticipation, before the announcement. While it is the "C"ompact "L" mount, and we have the "S" sized "L" mount in the SL (coming from the "S" Series, hence the honkin' big glass), if they would make the CL > "F"ull "L" or "M" sized "L" ... the model of the CL would be ideal for the interchangeable lens EVF, etc.

My quibbles about the CL were, the obvious APS-C vs. FF when mounting M lenses. But, my 28 Elmarit made a dandy 42mm standard. So, there's that.

The other thing was the battery life ... which small form factor, means small batteries, etc. ... which also lead to "slow-ish" AF when using the longer glass in the 55-135.

But, in the vein of nothing is perfect, it was pretty dang good for a "Pocket Rocket". I tried the TL2 also, but the CL was definitely my favorite haptic of the two.

Personally, I'd be fine with the CL2 (better battery tech, EVF, BSI sensor, etc.) ... even if they abandoned T-Series glass. Just mounting M lenses on it was excellent. A "Baby-Q" with interchangeable lenses, if you will. Still, the CL is a dandy, even if APS-C. Shame, it hasn't advanced along with everything else.

That, and from a marketing standpoint, it makes a "gateway" to the M ... especially if they don't advance the T-Series glass.

And, as to the TL- glass, the 23/2 was superb. As was the 55-135, particularly at the 85 mark (135 was a kiss softer).

CL2 ... sign me up.
What would be really cool, is if they would make a version of the CL with a square sensor of say 30x30 ... but, we all know that'll never happen.
That'd be too much like moving into mini-Hassy territory.

Dec 15, 2024 at 01:25 PM

jstrawman
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p.1 #9 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

brick33308 wrote:
Just this morning I posted images shot with my CL (https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1779165/33#16707554) and my 35 lux steel rim reissue via M-L adapter (shown below). I don't understand why Leica abandoned the CL.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-8LBS73s/0/MWmqfCkDdhV4TZ2kH4hrzkLJjw28vNfMSFDDVVNRJ/X4/i-8LBS73s-X4.jpg

Gorgeous images! I love my CL with the 35/2. For my needs the kit lens is also excellent. I have found no reason to move "up" to a Leica FF.

Dec 15, 2024 at 01:54 PM

retrofocus
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p.1 #10 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

brick33308 wrote:
Answer: maybe because that would make the Q a manual focus cam.

And I wouldn't mind this if it doesn't have AF capabilities. Actually I would see it as a potential advantage for Leica to avoid in-house competition with existing fixed-lens Q and SL cameras which all are AF based.

But they did make an interchangeable Q-like camera with the CL. Yes it's a crop sensor, not FF, but wow it performs brilliantly. And yes, with a tiny M-L adapter, all my M mount lenses fit and work flawlessly on the CL, albeit manual focus. And when you want it to be auto focus, there are a bunch of Leica TL lenses that work natively auto focus with the CL - like my TL 23 which is the FF equivalent of 35mm (which length I like better than the current Q3 or the Q343).

Yes, the CL - for me a no-no due to its APS-C sensor (same why I also exclude Fuji MLCs in their std mirrorless line). I would never go back to a smaller sensor size than FF with a camera. I have used cropped and FF sensor cameras in parallel in the past and didn't like it to always make up for the 1.5x or 1.5x extension factor in the field of view. Huge debit for ultra-wides and fisheye photography using the same lens, too.

Dec 15, 2024 at 02:53 PM

brick33308
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p.1 #11 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

I forgot to add that the manual focus using non-TL lenses on the CL is so easy. There's a wheel that magnifies the image, and the focus peeking seems to work way better than it does on M and Q cams.

Dec 15, 2024 at 03:52 PM

josh-himes
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p.1 #12 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

I would be onboard with an updated APS-C camera in the same form factor as the CL. Scrap the AF and dedicated lenses and just give it an M mount, via an extension from the front of the body if necessary. They would need to provide the necessary sensor architecture so that it plays reasonably well with wide M glass, which isn't that big of a hurdle with a crop sensor.

Add the necessary mechanical linkage or sensor to trigger auto-magnification when focusing, along with a decent EVF and it would be a winner. I have several small M lenses (VM 35 F/2.5, VM 28 F/2.8, VM 21 F/3.5, Laowa 15 F/5) that would be a great match for a camera of this size.

Dec 15, 2024 at 04:58 PM

KLaban
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p.1 #13 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

Why are Leicas so expensive?

Because they are made from Unobtainium

Dec 15, 2024 at 05:06 PM

FrozenInTime
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p.1 #14 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

josh-himes wrote:
I would be onboard with an updated APS-C camera in the same form factor as the CL. Scrap the AF and dedicated lenses and just give it an M mount, via an extension from the front of the body if necessary. They would need to provide the necessary sensor architecture so that it plays reasonably well with wide M glass, which isn't that big of a hurdle with a crop sensor.

Add the necessary mechanical linkage or sensor to trigger auto-magnification when focusing, along with a decent EVF and it would be a winner. I have several small M lenses...Show more →

I think you have accidentally hit the Leica's M-EVF and CL justification problem on the head here: Leica can only make money by selling camera bodies AND their lenses.

Dec 15, 2024 at 05:09 PM

BrandonSi
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p.1 #15 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

The CL would be awesome if it were full frame. Leica prices for APS-C make no sense, IMO. With the smaller sensor it's already a compromise in IQ.

Unless one has a particular obsession with Leica menus, might as well go Fuji X at that point. The X system is pretty fantastic for video and has a much deeper lens lineup at a more reasonable price point.

Dec 15, 2024 at 05:38 PM

RustyBug
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p.1 #16 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

brick33308 wrote:
I forgot to add that the manual focus using non-TL lenses on the CL is so easy. There's a wheel that magnifies the image, and the focus peeking seems to work way better than it does on M and Q cams.

Yup.

The CL is another one of those things where the experience is better than the "spec" might otherwise suggest.

Dec 15, 2024 at 05:40 PM

RustyBug
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p.1 #17 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

Dec 15, 2024 at 05:42 PM

RustyBug
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p.1 #18 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

BrandonSi wrote:
The CL would be awesome if it were full frame. Leica prices for APS-C make no sense, IMO. With the smaller sensor it's already a compromise in IQ.

Unless one has a particular obsession with Leica menus, might as well go Fuji X at that point. The X system is pretty fantastic for video and has a much deeper lens lineup at a more reasonable price point.

Generally speaking, the APS-C 'compromise' is understood, but with the M mount glass on it ... well, I had my Fuji X-Pro3 with M glass, and the shooting experience of the X-Pro3 was less reliable (missed shots, camera freeze, etc.) than the CL was (for me). Sold my X-Pro3 and never looked back. With today's advances in sensor IQ, an APS-C Leica spec'd sensor for M glass would hold up just fine, imo. Sure ... bigger > FF > MF offers continued advantages, but it would still be excellent, mostly because of the glass you're putting in front of it.

And, unlike folks mounting their M lenses on other brands, the stack sensor / microlenses would be Leica spec'd for optimal IQ projection onto the sensor (albeit smaller).

I have an appreciation for the Fuji, but ... it ain't the same.

Dec 15, 2024 at 05:47 PM

BrandonSi
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p.1 #19 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

RustyBug wrote:
Generally speaking, the APS-C 'compromise' is understood, but with the M mount glass on it ... well, I had my Fuji X-Pro3 with M glass, and the shooting experience of the X-Pro3 was less reliable (missed shots, camera freeze, etc.) than the CL was (for me). Sold my X-Pro3 and never looked back. With today's advances in sensor IQ, an APS-C Leica spec'd sensor for M glass would hold up just fine, imo. Sure ... bigger > FF > MF offers continued advantages, but it would still be excellent, mostly because of the glass you're putting in front of it....Show more →

For sure, not the same.. but Fuji adapting M glass is a terrible scenario. IMO, compare something like the CL with adapted M glass to an A7CR + AF M adapter and now the CL makes no sense IMO. I'd honestly take an old A7R2 and M glass over the CL with M glass, and I'm someone who can't stand Sony cameras.

Now a full frame CL with a high quality viewfinder like SL2.. I'd be camped out iPhone style for that!

Dec 15, 2024 at 09:33 PM

RustyBug
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p.1 #20 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

BrandonSi wrote:
For sure, not the same.. but Fuji adapting M glass is a terrible scenario. IMO, compare something like the CL with adapted M glass to an A7CR + AF M adapter and now the CL makes no sense IMO. I'd honestly take an old A7R2 and M glass over the CL with M glass, and I'm someone who can't stand Sony cameras.

Now a full frame CL with a high quality viewfinder like SL2.. I'd be camped out iPhone style for that!

+1 for a FF CL ... lots of folks thinkin' the same. Just not Leica.

I reckon they're havin' trouble figurin' out what to call it.

Can't really start with a "C" (i.e. compact, unless you keep it APS-C). Can't start it with an "M" (obvious reasons).

FL (FF L)
FM (FF M) ... dedicated M-mount
QM (FF Q) ... dedicated M-Mount, FF Q body style (which is same as CL only bigger for the most part).
EM (EVF-M) ... dedicated M-Mount
EL (EVF-L) ... even though the SL is and EVF-L, it would be a different namesake if they didn't want to give it the dedicated M-mount (to safeguard the M legacy)

I'm sure we can come up with a good naming convention ... that'll give them the catalyst to proceed. Okay, maybe not.

Dec 15, 2024 at 10:18 PM

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