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Archive 2024 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

  
 
RustyBug
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p.9 #1 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


OregonSun wrote:
Rationalize/explain/justify, whatever.

The title of this thread is "Why are Leicas so Expensive?" not "Why do Leica Owners Love Their Cameras so Much".



For which the question has been answered ... then, the derivative questions begin > by extension become an explanation of how the subjective valuation is contributory to price, in "what the market will bear", of "why, will it bear it". Which takes us right back to because people are willing to pay for what they like, hence the explanation of why they like what they like.

Ultimately, the two are inextricably intertwined. And yet, there are folks who try to find an answer that is devoid of this, querying for a purely "objective" answer ... and it is an exercise in futility because the subjective and price are ... inextricably intertwined into the laws of supply / demand.




Dec 21, 2024 at 04:02 PM
madNbad
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p.9 #2 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


This wasn't taken with a Leica but the Kodak Retina IIa is a rangefinder camera. I was focusing on the woman in the doorway when I noticed movement on the edge of the viewfinder. There was a choice of either letting the person pass or including them in the image. If I had been using a SLR, when the mirror swung up, I wouldn't have seen it.




Dec 21, 2024 at 04:12 PM
Tina Kino
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p.9 #3 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


catacore wrote:
Once again, I am here because I want to buy, once more, a digital Leica M-mount camera.


I think you know best what exactly was so frustrating with the M240 that you decided to sell it again after only 6 months.

I guess it's worth finding out what exactly the reasons were, for you.

Also in what way would the Leica help you make better pictures, also a good thing to figure out precisely - one major advantage of the rangefinder, the "seeing out side the frame" thing, apparently isn't of that much use to you, as you mostly shoot static things anyway you say.

I was asking myself the same questions by the way (having shot a few rangefinders, but mostly used SLRs and compacts all my life - and now that I'm retiring I'm thinking about getting into the M-system).
And I came to the conclusion that I'd do it mostly for the stellar image quality / for the ability to shoot M optics in a very nice, compact, rather lightweight package - but not for the rangefinder system, not at all. It doesn't really give me anything, on the contrary, I think having a black space around a very well defined rectangle to frame your shot is just great, really, I actually don't want to see outside the frame.
Would still do it though - because I know I could adjust, and because for me the images are worth the hassle, so to speak.

And coming back to the original topic on cost - no, I do not think they're worth the money.
I mean in a way they are of course, if they help you to do better work (or even help you earn more money, with your better work then yes - but at the same time it just makes no sense an M11 costs nine thousand dollars.
It is what it is though.



Dec 21, 2024 at 04:13 PM
raizans
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p.9 #4 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


Jason Schneider’s article has covered this topic very well.

https://rangefinderforum.com/threads/are-leicas-really-too-expensive-and-what-about-nikons-history-tells-the-tale.4815511/



Dec 21, 2024 at 04:21 PM
fjablo
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p.9 #5 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


1bwana1 wrote:
I once heard an interview with Dr Kaufman where he said that Leica tries to price their cameras in line with what the original Leica cameras were priced at. He said that this pricing philosophy has been consistent throughout leica's history. If I remember correctly he said that a Leica M camera, with a single lens has always cost about 2 1/2 times the average monthly professional German Salary.

Currently based on this analysis we can say that the annual salary of this type is around 55,000 Euro a year. This equates to about 4,583.33 EU or $4,812.49 per month. Doing
...Show more

Well you forgot some taxes in your calculation

55k gross income gets you about 2.9k€ net income per month in Germany. A Leica M11 costs 8.750€ so about 3x the average net income. Obviously disposable income is much lower than the 2.9k and it would take a long time to save up 9k on that income level (and then spend it on something as unnecessary as a camera)..

I don’t think Leica is really targeting the average income in Germany. And that’s also fine, if it works for them



Dec 22, 2024 at 04:29 AM
1bwana1
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p.9 #6 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


fjablo wrote:
Well you forgot some taxes in your calculation

55k gross income gets you about 2.9k€ net income per month in Germany. A Leica M11 costs 8.750€ so about 3x the average net income. Obviously disposable income is much lower than the 2.9k and it would take a long time to save up 9k on that income level (and then spend it on something as unnecessary as a camera)..

I don’t think Leica is really targeting the average income in Germany. And that’s also fine, if it works for them


My calculations were testing only what Dr Kaufmann said. He didn't mention taxes in his statement. He didn't say net income. He didn't say average German salary, he specificaly said average executive or professional salary.

He was responding to a question by the inteviewer suggesting that when he bought the company he had repositioned it as a luxury brand. He denied that he had.

Me calculations were not to justify Leica pricing nor explain how Leica arrives at its prices. It was just a casual attemt to test what Dr Kaufmann had said.



Dec 22, 2024 at 04:45 AM
fjablo
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p.9 #7 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


1bwana1 wrote:
My calculations were testing only what Dr Kaufmann said. He didn't mention taxes in his statement. He didn't say net income. He didn't say average German salary, he specificaly said average executive or professional salary.

He was responding to a question by the inteviewer suggesting that when he bought the company he had repositioned it as a luxury brand. He denied that he had.

Me calculations were not to justify Leica pricing nor explain how Leica arrives at its prices. It was just a casual attemt to test what Dr Kaufmann had said.


Yep and I was just pointing out that I think your "test" of his statement is a bit flawed

Not sure what an "average executive or professional salary" is supposed to be. I work in a bigger corporation and executive salaries would easily be >500k. Personally wouldn't use the term "executive" in smaller companies, which make up most of the German economy. And "professional" could mean anything really.

A team lead (or equiv. expert role) in a bigger corporation would typically make 90-120k-ish, so that would be 4.5-6k per month and more in line with his statement. Dentists - Leica's stereotypical core audience - make about 7.5k per month on average (varies a lot obviously and also depends on their health insurance plan etc). That's more in line with a head of department in corporations. I think these are the people they are looking at when pricing their products - approx. the top 5% of income levels in Germany.

We should also keep in mind that Mr Kaufmann inherited multiple hundred millions from his aunt so he might just be a bit out of touch with "average" incomes these days



Dec 22, 2024 at 06:18 AM
1bwana1
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p.9 #8 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


fjablo wrote:
Yep and I was just pointing out that I think your "test" of his statement is a bit flawed

Not sure what an "average executive or professional salary" is supposed to be. I work in a bigger corporation and executive salaries would easily be >500k. Personally wouldn't use the term "executive" in smaller companies, which make up most of the German economy. And "professional" could mean anything really.

A team lead (or equiv. expert role) in a bigger corporation would typically make 90-120k-ish, so that would be 4.5-6k per month and more in line with his statement. Dentists - Leica's
...Show more

First he is Dr Kaufmann. He earned the title. Yes he was born wealthy. No problem with that. Third, my interest in examining his statement was without interpretations or judgments which for whatever personal reason you seem unable to do.

Even though I have personal experience with European executive compensation because we pay many salaries in the EU, I didn't rely on that. I looked at multiple published reports on salaries. I didn't rely on anecdotal stories or personal viewpoints. Again, something you seem unable to do.

What you are saying is that Dr Kaufmann, the principle owner of the Leica company has a misunderstanding of his pricing model. Fine, convince him of that. In my opinion he seems to have a solid handle on it.

Understand also that salary and compensation are two very different things. Often structured to deal with tax structures in various jurisdictions. I could have tried to resolve that. But Dr Kaufmann said salaries so I left it at that.



Dec 22, 2024 at 06:40 AM
fjablo
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p.9 #9 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


1bwana1 wrote:
First he is Dr Kaufmann. He earned the title. Yes he was born wealthy. No problem with that. Third, my interest in examining his statement was without interpretations or judgments which for whatever personal reason you seem unable to do.

Even though I have personal experience with European executive compensation because we pay many salaries in the EU, I didn't rely on that. I looked at multiple published reports on salaries. I didn't rely on anecdotal stories or personal viewpoints. Again, something you seem unable to do.

What you are saying is that Dr Kaufmann, the principle owner of the Leica company
...Show more

Woah chill man, you are reading something in my responses that I didn't say at all. No judgements in my statements, other than that your initial "test" was flawed.

All I'm doing here is providing some datapoints on salaries as someone living in Germany and working (and paying salaries) in consumer-facing industries. You can discard them if you prefer. Equity-based compensation is relatively unusual / a very small proportion of income in Germany btw, unless you are indeed an executive. That's likely why he was referring to salaries. Happy to be proven wrong by the "multiple published reports on salaries" you're referring to, but I would be very surprised if anything I said was inaccurate.

I'm also not saying Leica is doing anything wrong in their pricing. Their financial results clearly prove that they're doing a lot of things right. All I'm saying is that they're not priced at 2.5x the average monthly income in Germany.



Dec 22, 2024 at 07:19 AM
1bwana1
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p.9 #10 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


fjablo wrote:
Woah chill man, you are reading something in my responses that I didn't say at all. No judgements in my statements, other than that your initial "test" was flawed.


The judgement I was referring to was when you said that because of inherited money Dr Kaufmann was likely out of touch.

fjablo wrote:
Happy to be proven wrong by the "multiple published reports on salaries" you're referring to, but I would be very surprised if anything I said was inaccurate.


I did link to one of the reports in my original post. But, here it is again.

https://www.learngermanonline.org/salaries-and-living-costs-in-germany/



fjablo wrote:
. All I'm saying is that they're not priced at 2.5x the average monthly income in Germany.



On that we probably all three agree.

But that is not what Dr Kaufmann said, nor what I examined. Average Monthly income, and Average monthly salary for a professional or company executive are entirely different things.



Dec 22, 2024 at 08:23 AM
RustyBug
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p.9 #11 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


The premise of a model for determining what once "can" or "should" be able to afford has been in play for a long time. And, the perspectives on this can / have / do / will change / adjust at varying times.

I say that in reference to home ownership, as a model that at times has had different levels of expectation regarding what % of $$$ a person has to work with, should correlate (as a model) to what they might consider. Debt to income ratio tolerance can range from mild to wild, as folks consider their position of what they are willing to spend on a given item ... be that a home, a car, a camera or a meal.

Hearing of Dr. Kaufman's model (never mind the actual dollar), it strikes me that he is recognizing a place that lands with one leg in the need to have $$$ that represents a segment on the curve that is accessible to discretionary income. Not meaning it has to be for the average / mean / median income or below average, etc. ... where discretionary income is often less available. OTOH, it isn't landing the other leg in the outlier territory of something so exclusive it is only a top 1% income availability. Rather somewhere well within a range of say 60% or 65% - 90% of incomes.

Some folks might jump on that and immediately associate that to "luxury" because it is clearly intended to be "above average". Semantics being such as they are ... when I think of "luxury" brands, I think of brands that warrant incomes in the 90-100% range, that only those with extreme amounts of discretionary income are the target market.

And then, I'm suddenly reminded of bass boats ... my goodness, what folks will spend on their bass boats makes a new Leica look like mediocrity. I'd be very curious to have a comparison of what the market spend is for each. Both, I would consider to be distinctly discretionary. Both I would consider to be for the "above average" income levels. But, as I think of other things, the realm of sewing machines comes to mind, specifically the Bernina brand. One could replace "Leica" with "Bernina" and the discussion would mimic or parallel. They are expensive because of the combination of extrinsic and intrinsic values. The requisite intrinsic costs to achieve the extrinsic experience in use combine to form a non-linear relationship.

https://www.bernina.com/en-US/Machines-US/Sewing-Machines

There are a variety of other brands available. And, one can easily place Bernina into similar ilk as Leica, regarding its place in the market. But, until you actually use a Bernina vs. some of the other brands ... it is the experience (not solely the features) of using it that presents differently from other brands. Spending "that kind of money" on a sewing machine seemed absurd to me, at one point. I thought the same of Harley and BMW, too.

Of course, that was before I had experienced using one. I don't sew ... which, even as a luddite in the sewing realm, I could tell the difference in smoothness of operation, ease of use, etc. from other brands. I don't mean to sound like a Bernina shill, there are other brands that make good machines, too. But, the point is that there are always going to be different levels of performance, use, precision, tactile interface, etc. that combine to bring an item to different tiers in the marketplace. And, in the case of the Bernina, the bobbin orientation is one component that makes for a different experience. So simple, yet ... I digress.

Back to Dr. Kaufman's "model". On one hand, is the requisite discretionary income. On the other hand, is the "investment grade" positioning. I realize that in the realm of investment semantics, folks often jump onto the "sell it for more than you paid for it" consideration. There are other forms of investment than buy / sell pricing. The time spent in ownership, and the experience of use during that period of time, is (imo) where the REAL ROI (Return on Investment) occurs with Leica (or Bernina).

The joy and satisfaction of use is an extrinsic value that factors into that model. Of course, if someone doesn't find joy / satisfaction in use ... then, immediately that element of extrinsic value is no longer part of the intrinsic + extrinsic. For those folks who don't get that joy / satisfaction in use, then it IS very REASONABLE that they do NOT value Leica, the same as those who do get that joy / satisfaction in use.

I'm inclined to think that folks who have a "longer view" on things ... i.e. planning to keep a tool for a long time (e.g. keeping a Bernina for years), have a different appreciation for what "investment" means to them, compared to folks who are often lead by the latest specification / feature update comparison(s) are more likely inclined toward valuation of Leica differently. I've been on both sides of that coin.

That said, when Steve walked us through the math (broadly), it was interesting to see the relative position that such model presented. My mind, then went on to wonder (didn't try to "math it out") if / how that model, then factors into the new model release timing that Leica brings to market. This meaning, does that present a model that a person of his model would be in a position to perpetually buy a different model ... say, every 2.5 years or every 4 years (if they were so inclined) in terms of legacy market positioning. Just a "hmmm", not a statement, per se.

Anyway ... I appreciated Steve's walkdown on the math model. I'd be curious to see how closely aligned companies like Apple, Bernina, Leica are in landing their models and pricing around the discretionary income levels of varying sectors. That said, I don't think any of those "expensive" brands are targeting the top 1%, not even the top 10% in their marketing / pricing models. Above 50% ... sure (although Apple has enough product differential to target <50% market, too). But, the semantics of "luxury" ... well, I kinda reserve that terminology for those in the top 10%. Now, if we start talking about Phase One or Ferrari, those are very different models of income that represent the target market. I don't think Leica is anywhere near that level of "luxury". Yet, I do recognize them as a "not average" company, too.


I mean ... they cost less than a bass boat or a sewing machine.




Dec 22, 2024 at 09:45 AM
fjablo
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p.9 #12 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


1bwana1 wrote:
The judgement I was referring to was when you said that because of inherited money Dr Kaufmann was likely out of touch.


I'm not a native speaker but in my understanding of the English language there is a difference between "might be" and "is likely". I'd prefer that you don't put words in my mouth.


1bwana1 wrote:
I did link to one of the reports in my original post. But, here it is again.

https://www.learngermanonline.org/salaries-and-living-costs-in-germany/


So, aside from not being an exactly scientific source it doesn't disprove anything I said. Some of the example salaries listed on that page are a bit below what I said e.g. Head of Marketing 88k vs my 90-120k for team leads in corporations. That's likely because I live in the Munich area where salaries are a bit higher than DE average and because their source data likely includes a lot of smaller companies which pay less than bigger enterprises.

1bwana1 wrote:
But that is not what Dr Kaufmann said, nor what I examined. Average Monthly income, and Average monthly salary for a professional or company executive are entirely different things.


Ok so what exactly did he say and where did he say it? I wasn't able to source the interview, but I'd be curious to read it or listen to it.

And what did you examine exactly? In the post I've reacted to you did some calculations based on average gross salary and concluded Leica's were indeed priced around 2.5x the monthly average, or did I get that wrong? If I didn't get that wrong then my point is that this calculation doesn't make much sense in this context. Someone earning the average salary would have to save up for years to afford a Leica..

..which then brings us to "professionals" and "company executives". Would love to understand what you mean by those terms, esp. the former.

Personally, I'd define "executives" as (Senior / Executive) Vice President and C-Level of bigger enterprises or Managing Directors of small enterprises (the latter usually 1-3 individuals per company, often including the owner). That's a gross income of 150k+, more often above 200k. And before you get hung up on compensation vs salary: typically around 30% variable pay, but usually in cash, not equity. Monthly net income in this group would be around 10k which - even on household level - puts you in the top 1%. We could agree that people in this group could likely afford a Leica and are a key (but not the only) target audience for them



Dec 22, 2024 at 11:13 AM
johnvanr
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p.9 #13 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


I may be wrong, but I have the feeling Leica M in the film days was just a bit more than a flagship Nikon or Canon, with the prime lenses much more expensive. Then all top cameras shot up with the rise of digital, but Leica now is much more expensive than a flagship Nikon or Canon. At the same time, the Leica M has become a bit more capable while the flagships have become a lot more capable.




Dec 22, 2024 at 11:33 AM
raizans
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p.9 #14 · Why are Leicas so expensive?




1bwana1 wrote:
He was responding to a question by the inteviewer suggesting that when he bought the company he had repositioned it as a luxury brand. He denied that he had.


That’s consistent with their PR strategy: deny that it’s a luxury brand verbally, but behave like a luxury brand otherwise.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marcbabej/2012/11/26/how-leica-camera-is-generating-momentum-for-a-passion-brand/



Dec 22, 2024 at 11:35 AM
1bwana1
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p.9 #15 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


fjablo wrote:
I'm not a native speaker but in my understanding of the English language there is a difference between "might be" and "is likely". I'd prefer that you don't put words in my mouth.


I didn't do that. It would only be putting words in you mouth had I put that in quotation marks as you did.

fjablo wrote:
So, aside from not being an exactly scientific source it doesn't disprove anything I said. Some of the example salaries listed on that page are a bit below what I said e.g. Head of Marketing 88k vs my 90-120k for team leads in corporations. That's likely because I live in the Munich area where salaries are a bit higher than DE average and because their source data likely includes a lot of smaller companies which pay less than bigger enterprises.


I just listed the source I used. You are fee to question it. But I think most would agree that source to be more reliable than simple anecdotal stories about ones own limited experiences which have zero ability to be vetted. Believe what you like.

Neither of us know what data souces Dr Kaufman used to base his statement on. But I would bet a lot that your experiences were not it.


fjablo wrote:
Ok so what exactly did he say and where did he say it? I wasn't able to source the interview, but I'd be curious to read it or listen to it.

And what did you examine exactly? In the post I've reacted to you did some calculations based on average gross salary and concluded Leica's were indeed priced around 2.5x the monthly average, or did I get that wrong? If I didn't get that wrong then my point is that this calculation doesn't make much sense in this context. Someone earning the average salary would have to save up for
...Show more

You are free to try and find it. As I originally said I watched the video and reported what heard. No time to search, but it is out there somewhere.

You define things the way you please. I just did a search based on the terms that Dr Kaufmann used and a few reports came up that all pretty much agreed with each other. Those reports didn't define them the way you are doing that is clear. Your definition as described by you put your sample in the top 1%. By any use of the term "average" your view of Dr Kaufmann's statement doesn't fit.

From a principle's perspective, I could tell stories about a variety of businesses, who we hire, for what position, at what compensation, in almost every European Country there is. But that would have zero relevance to what Dr Kaufmann said. Neither does yours.

Edited on Dec 22, 2024 at 12:10 PM · View previous versions



Dec 22, 2024 at 11:51 AM
airfrogusmc
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p.9 #16 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


johnvanr wrote:
I may be wrong, but I have the feeling Leica M in the film days was just a bit more than a flagship Nikon or Canon, with the prime lenses much more expensive. Then all top cameras shot up with the rise of digital, but Leica now is much more expensive than a flagship Nikon or Canon. At the same time, the Leica M has become a bit more capable while the flagships have become a lot more capable.



In 1982 I paid $525 for my Canon new F-1 and a Leica M4-P, would have cost around $1,500 - $2,000 depending on the seller and any included accessories.



Dec 22, 2024 at 12:01 PM
1bwana1
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p.9 #17 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


johnvanr wrote:
I may be wrong, but I have the feeling Leica M in the film days was just a bit more than a flagship Nikon or Canon, with the prime lenses much more expensive. Then all top cameras shot up with the rise of digital, but Leica now is much more expensive than a flagship Nikon or Canon. At the same time, the Leica M has become a bit more capable while the flagships have become a lot more capable.



Exactly.

My point was that Dr Kaufmann claims that Leica has not raised prices in relation to economic norms. The Japanese lowered the cost of high performance cameras. That same relationship is now happening between Japanese camera companies and Chinese companies. In my observation this is starting with lenses.

So given these new realities Leica is more expensive when compared to its Japanese rivals. For me I recently experienced this first hand. I have a Leica 50mm Summilux ASPH that is priced at $4,899 new. I also have a Thypoch 50mm Simera ASPH which I just bought new for $549.00. I have been testing them extensively side by side, and I definitely like the Simera better than the Summilux, both in features, and in rendering.

I will post one test below. It was designed to show the bokeh balls differences. The Simera has round smooth bokeh balls through its aperture range. The Summilux has polygonal bokeh balls (for me not attractive) even stopped down one stop. Images were shot with the exact same settings, on a tripod so everything is the same. Zoom in to see how extreme the difference gets. The Simera is a super value at it's price.





Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH at F/2.0 Nice and round







Summilux at f/2.0 unattractive polygonal bokeh balls only gets worse from here







Simera at f/2.8 still round and smooth







Summilux at f/2.8 getting much worse already.







Simera 2.8 Zoomed in Nice and round and smooth







Summilux 2.8 Zoomed, harshly polygonal, not very attractive in my opinion



Edited on Dec 22, 2024 at 12:54 PM · View previous versions



Dec 22, 2024 at 12:05 PM
johnvanr
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p.9 #18 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


airfrogusmc wrote:
In 1982 I paid $525 for my Canon new F-1 and a Leica M4-P, would have cost around $1,500 - $2,000 depending on the seller and any included accessories.


Only $525 for a Canon F1? I was in Europe at the time and couldn’t afford anything beyond a Pentax ME, but that sounds really cheap for a top-of-the-line Canon.



Dec 22, 2024 at 12:16 PM
RustyBug
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p.9 #19 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


1bwana1 wrote:
Exactly.

My point was that Dr Kaufmann claims that Leica has not raised prices in relation to economic norms. The Japanese lowered the cost of high performance cameras. That same relationship is now happening between Japanese camera companies and Chinese companies. In my observation this is starting with lenses.

So given these new realities Leica is more expensive when compared to its Japanese rivals. For me I recently experienced this first hand. I have a Leica 50mm Summilux ASPH that is priced at $4,899 new. I also have a Thypoch 50mm Simera ASPH which I just bought new for $549.00. I
...Show more

And the physical difference of the lenses =



Dec 22, 2024 at 12:31 PM
stgrove
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p.9 #20 · Why are Leicas so expensive?


Many LLL lenses give the old (and new) Leica lenses a run for the money and rendering for less money like many competitive M lenses out there today.

Based on economies of scale this will not help Leica reduce lens prices, but only increase them.

Edited on Dec 22, 2024 at 12:50 PM · View previous versions



Dec 22, 2024 at 12:40 PM
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