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Archive 2024 · Canon departure thoughts

  
 
tsdevine
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p.6 #1 · Canon departure thoughts


I'm sorry, Dan's post resonated with me. Apologies for posting, everyone please ignore.

johnvanr wrote:
So, you made the switch eons ago when there were larger differences between camera generations and assume that still applies now? I’m sorry, but we have since reached a plateau where improvements are much more marginal than they used to be. Different considerations apply.





Jul 19, 2024 at 10:11 AM
Rivermist
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p.6 #2 · Canon departure thoughts


"Not going anywhere" Canon user here, since 1971. I just want to share some "old folks" observations: before electronics appeared in camera technology in the 80's, there was a trend towards brands that had been strongly differentiated in the late 60s and early 70s gradually catching up with each other in terms of lens selection, reliability, ergonomics, etc.. There were good reasons to stick with one or the other of 4-5 brands depending on your photography type, but all were good cameras with good "bones". Electronic-laden auto-focus lens systems and bodies created a whole new market and very significant differentiators, and before the same convergence of brands happened digital sensors opened a whole new market. By the 2010s it was again a situation of a handful of brands having good cameras and differences being only on the fringe high-cost / high-performance lenses and some super-pro camera bodies. Mirrorless threw this up in the air again, new mounts, new capabilities and the introduction of in-camera corrections that allowed lenses to follow new design trends. But the manufacturers are now dealing with another factor that is not technical or directly about competition: cell phones are decimating the low end consumer photographer segment, depriving brands of the significant entry-level amateur income and the associated R&D and manufacturing cost-sharing they previously enjoyed. This is not about evil empires and negligent management, it is about surviving in a business that is addressing a rapidly shrinking population of potential clients (enthusiast amateurs and professionals), while having to spread overheads over fewer sold units. Investing as many of us do in many thousands or tens of thousands of $$ in gear, beyond the specifics of each brand's offering we must now also guess at who will be around 5 years from now. Corporations are known to make tough decisions that include shutting down a product line that has become a drag on quarterly profits or is cannibalizing another product line (e.g., mirrorless photo / video undermining professional video cameras), while specialized companies may have to file for bankruptcy.


Jul 19, 2024 at 10:46 AM
AmbientMike
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p.6 #3 · Canon departure thoughts



gdanmitchell wrote:
I do some bird photography, though my mainstays with my Canon system are other things. However, I’m coming around to a perspective very similar to yours.

That is uncomfortable to me and a bit of a surprise, as I generally don’t think brand switching accomplishes much and my experience over the years has been that when one company’s new offerings go a bit beyond another company’s previous offerings, the tables are typically reversed with the next update cycle.

When Canon moved to the R system, I think that they generally managed the transition quite well. However, since my main camera is a
...Show more

As much as people like to say Canon has never done anything right, in their entire lives, on this thread, and FM in general, the 50mp 5DsR that came out almost a decade ago is still one of the highest resolution cameras out there.

Not sure why you are planning on leaving, or where, exactly, you would go.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to criticize Canon since no one else has a meaningfully higher resolution FF body. And you don't buy into the overblown DR thing either





Jul 19, 2024 at 10:54 AM
trippalhealick
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p.6 #4 · Canon departure thoughts


RoamingScott wrote:
I will play devil's advocate. If you have the means to do so monetarily without significant stress to your financials or marital situation...

Often buying and trying (and selling if you don't like) is cheaper in the long run than renting. The added advantage is that you can keep the gear far longer, and if you buy used, you don't eat so much depreciation.

Half of knowing what you like and what works well for you is knowing what you dislike. When I had the R5 in hand, the left hand power button was an immediate dealbreaker for me. The latency of
...Show more

My thoughts, as well. I buy from places like B&H, Adorama and even Amazon and return the items if I don't like them. It's FAR cheaper than renting. These retailers still sell these items (as open box) and still make a profit off them. They wouldn't offer the ability to return/refund if they couldn't or didn't still make money off the items. I also agree with the left-side power button thing. Same immediate shock I had when trying the R5 and R3. I have the same reservations of Leica's SL cameras with the power button or switch on the left side (at least with the SL3). What I hate most is manufacturers changing this from model iteration to model iteration (e.g R5 > R5 mk2) where the power button will be on the left side one year, and then on the right side the next. Pick a general design formula and stick with it so your users can build that muscle memory. I feel the same about Sony moving that movie button to the top of the A7RV.



Jul 19, 2024 at 10:56 AM
RoamingScott
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p.6 #5 · Canon departure thoughts


trippalhealick wrote:
My thoughts, as well. I buy from places like B&H, Adorama and even Amazon and return the items if I don't like them. It's FAR cheaper than renting. These retailers still sell these items (as open box) and still make a profit off them. They wouldn't offer the ability to return/refund if they couldn't or didn't still make money off the items. I also agree with the left-side power button thing. Same immediate shock I had when trying the R5 and R3. I have the same reservations of Leica's SL cameras with the power button or switch on the left
...Show more

I have to give Canon props for rectifying one of their most braindead design decisions of the last 20 years. I'd rather them move it to the correct side than just press ahead in the name of "muscle memory".

Now if we could get Nikon to stop making cameras with the playback button on the left side...



Jul 19, 2024 at 11:00 AM
trippalhealick
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p.6 #6 · Canon departure thoughts


RoamingScott wrote:
I have to give Canon props for rectifying one of their most braindead design decisions of the last 20 years. I'd rather them move it to the correct side than just press ahead in the name of "muscle memory".

Now if we could get Nikon to stop making cameras with the playback button on the left side...



haha yes, only "set it and forget it" if it's on the right side, very preferably as a switch under the shutter button.



Jul 19, 2024 at 11:05 AM
johnvanr
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p.6 #7 · Canon departure thoughts


RoamingScott wrote:
I will play devil's advocate. If you have the means to do so monetarily without significant stress to your financials or marital situation...

Often buying and trying (and selling if you don't like) is cheaper in the long run than renting. The added advantage is that you can keep the gear far longer, and if you buy used, you don't eat so much depreciation.

Half of knowing what you like and what works well for you is knowing what you dislike. When I had the R5 in hand, the left hand power button was an immediate dealbreaker for me. The latency of
...Show more

Yup. But OP says he can’t two systems at the same time.



Jul 19, 2024 at 01:16 PM
johnvanr
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p.6 #8 · Canon departure thoughts


trippalhealick wrote:
My thoughts, as well. I buy from places like B&H, Adorama and even Amazon and return the items if I don't like them. It's FAR cheaper than renting. These retailers still sell these items (as open box) and still make a profit off them. They wouldn't offer the ability to return/refund if they couldn't or didn't still make money off the items. I also agree with the left-side power button thing. Same immediate shock I had when trying the R5 and R3. I have the same reservations of Leica's SL cameras with the power button or switch on the left
...Show more

Sorry, but that’s a practice I don’t agree with. If you want to try something, rent or buy used, but don’t abuse generous return policies. That behavior is going to hurt all of us in the end.



Jul 19, 2024 at 01:19 PM
johnvanr
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p.6 #9 · Canon departure thoughts


tsdevine wrote:
I'm sorry, Dan's post resonated with me. Apologies for posting, everyone please ignore.



Well, I didn’t want to sound too harsh.



Jul 19, 2024 at 01:21 PM
rscheffler
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p.6 #10 · Canon departure thoughts


arbitrage wrote:
Eye-control AF is not very useful for birds or BIF. I'm constantly scanning everything in the frame other than the bird because the success of bird photos in this day an age is all about the backgrounds as getting the bird in focus is child's play. With eye-control if you start looking around you aren't going to trigger focus on the subject.
I tried it with the R3, didn't seem to be useful what so ever. YMMV.


The point of eye-control AF is that you initially look at the subject and get the AF point close enough to it for subject detection to take over and lock on, thus allowing you to then scan around the image like you normally would. It's simply for getting the AF point to the subject faster than you could with a joystick, or recomposing to put the point on the subject and then recomposing again, after subject detection has taken over. At least that is how I found it to be most effective with the R3.

Rivermist wrote:
"Not going anywhere" Canon user here, since 1971. I just want to share some "old folks" observations: before electronics appeared in camera technology in the 80's, there was a trend towards brands that had been strongly differentiated in the late 60s and early 70s gradually catching up with each other in terms of lens selection, reliability, ergonomics, etc.. There were good reasons to stick with one or the other of 4-5 brands depending on your photography type, but all were good cameras with good "bones". Electronic-laden auto-focus lens systems and bodies created a whole new market and very significant differentiators,
...Show more

For the sake of the camera industry's survival, everyone should be switching systems every few years (or buying multiple systems) to keep the companies funded and R&D rolling so we can all have new tech to enjoy (and complain about).

A positive side effect might be better understanding of what users of other systems are experiencing, potentially resulting in more thoughtful discussions.



Jul 19, 2024 at 02:44 PM
bernardl
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p.6 #11 · Canon departure thoughts


RoamingScott wrote:
I have to give Canon props for rectifying one of their most braindead design decisions of the last 20 years. I'd rather them move it to the correct side than just press ahead in the name of "muscle memory".

Now if we could get Nikon to stop making cameras with the playback button on the left side...


The play button is on the right side on the Z6III/Z8/Z9. Perfect for larger lenses.

Overall I am personally more of a sampler than a switcher. Nikon has been my main system for many years but I have added Sony bodies when they delivered value to me such as the a9III. It’s great since Sony lenses adapt with excellent AF on Nikon bodies. Fuji also for higher res landscape. All these cameras have similar physical UI (menus are very different though).

So I understand those that would prefer to not switch and think we are still in a pendulum situation where brands overtake each other at every release.

However is that really the case? Is Canon still not behind the a1/Z9/Z8 with the R5II and R1? And even if they have managed to take a small lead in some aspects (possibly bird AF although that remains to be confirmed), are they not going to be years behind again in a few months when the a1II/Z9II ship? Those will certainly feature faster read out speeds (probably 1/600s), 2 or 3 times faster processors,…

I think that this is a real question and waiting until those show up is probably the most reasonable decision. This may be why photorumors is reporting that numbers of R1 pre-orders are much lower than recent Sony/Nikon flagships even in the US where Canon still has a strong following (and supposedly has a much higher market share). If those market share numbers really apply to high end FF cameras also, it means that the ratio of R1 pre-orders may be 5 to 10 times lower than the Z9. Not insignificant.

Would the announcement of a Nikon 200-500mm f4 S TC influence such decisions? Canon has not included a TC in their 100-300mm f2.8, would they include one in their rumored 200-500mm f4?

Cheers,
Bernard


Edited on Jul 19, 2024 at 05:34 PM · View previous versions



Jul 19, 2024 at 04:45 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.6 #12 · Canon departure thoughts


bernardl wrote:
I understand those that would prefer to not switch and think we are still in a pendulum situation where brands overtake each other at every release.

However is that really the case? Is Canon still not behind the a1/Z9/Z8 with the R5II and R1? And even if they have managed to take a small lead in some aspects (possibly bird AF although that remains to be confirmed), are they not going to be years behind again in a few months when the a1II/Z9II ship? Those will certainly feature faster read out speeds (probably 1/600s), 2 or 3 times faster processors,…


That's pretty much the point that I was trying to articulate earlier. In a world in which brands generally progress at roughly similar rates over time, with newest releases from each brand often improving on the previous releases from other brand, only to be improved upon soon by new releases from another brand...

...with the R5ii and R1 there are reasons to feel that Canon did not accomplish that goal. While we can point to some features that look to be state of the art, overall the cameras seem to be falling short of what is offered by the other brands' recent releases rather than surpassing them.

To those who point out, correctly, that all of today's cameras are excellent picture-making devices, I agree with that general point. And that's why I don't think the announcement of the R1 and R5ii should make satisfied Canon users run for the hills. But those who have been waiting to see how Canon would continue that "most recent update trumps the competition for a while" cameras from Canon are left to wonder.



Jul 19, 2024 at 05:14 PM
trippalhealick
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p.6 #13 · Canon departure thoughts


johnvanr wrote:
Sorry, but that’s a practice I don’t agree with. If you want to try something, rent or buy used, but don’t abuse generous return policies. That behavior is going to hurt all of us in the end.



Ok. Then I guess we'll all just stick with what we bought, and never ever explore buying any other item again except that which we absolutely need. Enjoy that. You can be the counter to my returning if I don't like something. lol



Jul 19, 2024 at 05:25 PM
RoamingScott
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p.6 #14 · Canon departure thoughts


trippalhealick wrote:
Ok. Then I guess we'll all just stick with what we bought, and never ever explore buying any other item again except that which we absolutely need. Enjoy that. You can be the counter to my returning if I don't like something. lol


You can do that without being a prick consumer. I know most people are like "well Jeff Bezos can afford it" but it just makes everything more expensive for everyone the more that happens.



Jul 19, 2024 at 05:30 PM
trippalhealick
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p.6 #15 · Canon departure thoughts


RoamingScott wrote:
You can do that without being a prick consumer. I know most people are like "well Jeff Bezos can afford it" but it just makes everything more expensive for everyone the more that happens.


I disagree, but that's OK. It's not like I buy the stuff just to test it out. I'm buying it with the intention of keeping it, but sometimes you get something and it just doesn't fit the bill. If it makes you feel any better, I did buy a lens this month, consider returning it since I'm barely going to use it (macro lens), and ended up keeping it. You guys feel better now? lol



Jul 19, 2024 at 05:36 PM
Mike Jacks0n
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p.6 #16 · Canon departure thoughts


bernardl wrote:
...Would the announcement of a Nikon 200-500mm f4 S TC influence such decisions? Canon has not included a TC in their 100-300mm f2.8, would they include one in their rumored 200-500mm f4?

Cheers,
Bernard


Unfortunately, Canon seems to have their hearts set on not including TCs in lenses anymore. If the rumors and patents are a sign, they plan to have a variable TC that can always be on the lens. One that can go from 0.0x - 2.0x. So, that's what we can look forward to. Not necessarily elegant, but should serve the purpose, especially if it has both 1.4x and a 2.0x in one device.



Jul 19, 2024 at 05:56 PM
bernardl
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p.6 #17 · Canon departure thoughts


Mike Jacks0n wrote:
Unfortunately, Canon seems to have their hearts set on not including TCs in lenses anymore. If the rumors and patents are a sign, they plan to have a variable TC that can always be on the lens. One that can go from 0.0x - 2.0x. So, that's what we can look forward to. Not necessarily elegant, but should serve the purpose, especially if it has both 1.4x and a 2.0x in one device.


Some key values of a built-in TC are:
- it can be located “in the middle” of other elements which enables better optical design optimization
- it can be optimized for the specific lens instead of being a generic design
- it doesn’t suffer from mount tolerances stacking and its design can therefore be of higher quality
- the rear/front elements can be coated without the need to take care about durability (scratch protection)
- it doesn’t add another failure point for water ingestion

The funny thing being that, contrary to VR/IS (a Nikon invention they hadn’t thought of using in interchangeable lenses), it was Canon who came up first with this tremendous innovation.

Although a variable zoom TC would address the convenience part if would not address the other 5 aspects. On the contrary, it’s likely to be worse than legacy TCs that weren’t that great to start with. It may be fine to get the shot with a 24mp camera for low quality press images but won’t cut it for wildlife I am afraid. I could be wrong of course.

It does feel like another great marketing idea that defined a strategy without listening to the concerns of the engineers…

I guess you can’t get it both ways. Nikon is a slow engineers driven company. Best designs that always work but conservative speed. Canon has always been marketing driven. Great sales but questionable cost driven “technical” decisions sometimes (sensor tech,…) and attention grabbing features that don’t always work (eye focusing AF). Their sales techniques are agressive and best in class (including consistant messaging against competitors,…).

At the risk of over simplifying, I sometimes feel that Canon works for themselves while Nikon works for their clients.

Cheers,
Bernard



Jul 19, 2024 at 06:23 PM
Cliff L.
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p.6 #18 · Canon departure thoughts


rscheffler wrote:
For the sake of the camera industry's survival, everyone should be switching systems every few years (or buying multiple systems) to keep the companies funded and R&D rolling so we can all have new tech to enjoy (and complain about).

A positive side effect might be better understanding of what users of other systems are experiencing, potentially resulting in more thoughtful discussions.


No... better to stick with your sacred cow brand and just make up stuff about other brands to ease your insecurities, like the Nikon guys do.



Jul 19, 2024 at 08:01 PM
groob
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p.6 #19 · Canon departure thoughts


Seems like people on this thread have no idea that Dorian is one of the best bird photographers going. He’s also *extraordinarily* intelligent and knowledgeable about birds all over the world. I’d hire him in a heartbeat to find elusive birds for me in basically any country.

On to his question. I’ll give my perspective, which is coming from a Nikon guy, so fair warning. It seems to me that Canon has told us who it plans to be for now, and wildlife photographers don’t want to accept it. Canon is focused on sports—not wildlife—likely because the sports market is bigger and more lucrative. Just look at its marketing and AF innovations for sports. The innovations are astounding, but there’s almost nothing new or interesting for wildlife shooters beyond pre-capture. And Canon’s implementation of pre-capture will almost certainly be bested by both Sony and Nikon soon.

So when it comes to wildlife, Canon has only just caught up to, or slightly surpassed, the A1 and Z9/8 as to AF, overall specs, and lens selection. To me, then, it’s clear that Canon is uninterested in innovating and moving the wildlife genre forward. Canon is probably not going to make any lenses (or at least none in the near-ish future) that rival Nikon’s TC superteles, PF lenses, or other lightweight superteles. And Canon will be surpassed in AF functionality by Sony’s new sensors, which Nikon will use in its bodies too. Given that it took this long for Canon to achieve parity, it will almost certainly be another long wait for it to do so again.

If I were in Dorian’s shoes (and I was until Nikon updated the Z9 and Z8 to get them basically on par with the A1), I’d leave Canon behind. Sony will lead in sensor tech for the foreseeable future and neither Sony nor Canon will rival Nikon’s lens selection. Both Sony and Nikon offer more for wildlife photographers and likely will going forward. Dorian is a pro at the top of this game, and if I were him, I’d want tools that fit me best. I just don’t see how that’s Canon right now.



Jul 19, 2024 at 09:47 PM
rscheffler
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p.6 #20 · Canon departure thoughts


groob wrote:
It seems to me that Canon has told us who it plans to be for now, and wildlife photographers don’t want to accept it. Canon is focused on sports—not wildlife—likely because the sports market is bigger and more lucrative. Just look at its marketing and AF innovations for sports. The innovations are astounding, but there’s almost nothing new or interesting for wildlife shooters beyond pre-capture. And Canon’s implementation of pre-capture will almost certainly be bested by both Sony and Nikon soon.


It's not just sports. It's people photography. (The sports market is small and niche, yet it's kind of a 'halo' market that demands high performance equipment where a manufacturer can show off their capabilities.) While the R1 certainly is marketed as a sports photographer's dream camera, sports is primarily people photography. The R5II is an ideal camera for the broader genre of people photography, such as weddings, portraiture, etc., etc. I think the narrow focus of interest on this forum - being primarily birds and wildlife with some landscape - overlooks that the vast majority of photography is of people.

And I don't feel this is something new or a change of direction by Canon. If you consider the 5-series since inception, it has been a mainstay for photographers who do people photography. It's just that the R5 and R5II have greatly expanded the capabilities of the 5-series to overlap with what used to be the domain of the 1-series. But yes, since this post was started by a wildlife photographer and not a people photographer, it would seem Canon's people-centric focus may not address some of the specific desires for those in the wildlife genre.



Jul 19, 2024 at 09:57 PM
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