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Archive 2024 · Canon departure thoughts

  
 
artsupreme
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p.5 #1 · Canon departure thoughts


robert_in_ca wrote:
You mean 600 like this



Yes, I'm very jealous of that beauty over here in Canon land. Is your 400 dressed up like that too? Very nice.



Jul 18, 2024 at 08:12 PM
swldstn
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p.5 #2 · Canon departure thoughts


lighthound wrote:
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the whole who's catching up thing because it's simply based on the manufactures scheduled release cycle. Nothing more nothing less. Just like we're seeing right now with the old outdated R5, the competition still hasn't "caught-up" in many regards, so who's to say that isn't going to be the case again with these two new Canon bodies. As you know, words written on spec sheets don't always tell the full story. The user experience is where the rubber hits the road and not one single person here has had that experience
...Show more

It’s fine if we disagree but have owned Canon film, DSLR, and now Mirrorless with the R, R5, 1DX, 5D4, 5D3, 5D2, 5D, 50D, etc for 29 years and Sony Mirrorless for over 11 years with every A7x, A9x, and A1 (no A9III) and since owning the RF mount I’ve found it hard to get RF L primes to cover wide angle and had to adapt older EF lenses lenses and except for the RF holy f/2.8 holy trinity it appears or feels like every L lens has lagged the equivalent Sony GM equivalent. So my current Canon R5 and L lenses has no L primes wider than 50mm. Currently the RF 100-500mm is the longest telephoto I own.

Also did shoot the Nikon Z9 system for about 18 months and their Z S lens family and it’s not as extensive but I agree their longer telephoto and telephoto zooms provide very nice coverage and it’s their bodies left a big hole until the Z8 an now Z6 III came along.

Sony on its own and with real third party partners has done a much better job in my opinion of try to make sure its users have a wide selection of lenses to choose from which I do appreciate. There are lenses I can’t afford but that the barrier to me personally and not the user community.




Jul 18, 2024 at 08:29 PM
robert_in_ca
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p.5 #3 · Canon departure thoughts


Thanks. Yes… the 400 has the same skin.

artsupreme wrote:
Yes, I'm very jealous of that beauty over here in Canon land. Is your 400 dressed up like that too? Very nice.




Jul 18, 2024 at 09:49 PM
StarNut
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p.5 #4 · Canon departure thoughts


Knowing what I know, were I now picking a brand, it wouldn't be Canon.

That said, I'm too heavily invested in Canon glass to change horses, so I'll not be switching.

I had hoped that the R1 would have 45 mp or so. I won't buy it with 24 mp; the photojournalists can have "my" copy.

The R5II looks like it will be a very good camera. I'll probably buy one, eventually, to replace my long-time combination of 1DX2 & 5DSR. I'll probably be happy with it.

But the bloom is off the Canon rose, for me.



Jul 18, 2024 at 11:00 PM
AmbientMike
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p.5 #5 · Canon departure thoughts


dorian wrote:
As a long-time bird photographer and professional birding guide, I think the R1 announcement is likely to end my tenure as a Canon shooter (13 years). Sure, there are some sweet features in this body, but I cannot fathom what Canon expects me to do with 24MP when Sony and Nikon are offering me twice that for the equivalent price in the a1 and z9, respectively. Reach is premium for bird shooters, and I often do not have enough even with my R5/600/1.4. And sure, the R5 II will be a solid upgrade to my R5, but does anyone honestly
...Show more

It doesn't make much sense to complain about the 100-500 price in the same post you are talking about $6k cameras & $10k+ lenses. Guided a couple birders, one had the 200-600, good sized lens, to be clamoring for as you call for lighter lenses

How exactly are you able to tell the light is bad before you leave home, leaving gear behind? Clouds break

The 800/6.3 is still a pretty big, heavy, expensive lens, over 5lbs and had been $6500. The ~3 lb Z9 doesn't help the weight



Jul 18, 2024 at 11:00 PM
trippalhealick
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p.5 #6 · Canon departure thoughts


RoamingScott wrote:
There's this weird, permeating notion (perpetuated by certain members' niche preferences) that you can't get good BIF pics with anything but X, Y, or Z.

The R5, R5II, Z8, Z9, and A1 are all excellent options in this field for a high megapixel body. Learning any camera and its AF eccentricities takes time and patience. You can get good pictures from all of them.

At this point, it's down to which lens ecosystem you wish to use.




I agree. I was actually really worried about the Canon announcement this week, as I have this everlasting GAS fueled by my romanticizing different genres of photography specialization like street, travel, portraits, bird/wildlife, liminal spaces, etc. Canon's announcement has solidified the general perspective i've been trying my best to adopt, which is that if you are already fairly "embedded" in a system, switching is not going to be the grand awakening most hope it could be. There are several things I like about Canon's offerings that I find superior to Sony's (my current system), and after testing both an R5 and an R3 at different points in my photography journey over the last 3 years, I can tell you, Canon has just as many things outright missing from Sony's feature list as they do advantages. The grass is always greener until you get over the fence. It's just not worth it, unless one of the manufacturers is making a technological leap/gamble like Sony did with mirrorless. Canon and Nikon's absolute lack of measurable innovation from model iteration to model iteration is the reason I switched from Canon to Sony about 12 years ago, and steadily paying close attention to the other manufacturers' releases has shown me that switching systems after being deeply invested in one is simply trading pros/cons for a new set of (different) pros/cons. Pointless.



Jul 19, 2024 at 12:34 AM
Z250SA
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p.5 #7 · Canon departure thoughts


From the all-knowing interweb: "Currently there are only 3 cameras with Eye Control AF. The latest released Eye Control AF cameras are the Canon R5 II, the Canon R1 and the Canon R3".

What?!? The One feature above them all and I cant get the usual pain in the chest when it´s only in Nikon or Sony land?

Come on, guys... We are bathing in a sea of gear at a technical level never seen before on this planet. But it´s not enough, not even close? This is "need next big kick" forum stuff with almost no connection to actual photography.

R52 + 200-800? WITH eye control AF! Handholdable and light enough for fast BIF and DIF! Ooooh boy!

trippalhealick here above nailed it. Just read and heed.



Jul 19, 2024 at 01:09 AM
dorian
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p.5 #8 · Canon departure thoughts


I'm sure 200-800 is a fine lens, but f/9 at 800 is a non-starter for me.

Z250SA wrote:
From the all-knowing interweb: "Currently there are only 3 cameras with Eye Control AF. The latest released Eye Control AF cameras are the Canon R5 II, the Canon R1 and the Canon R3".

What?!? The One feature above them all and I cant get the usual pain in the chest when it´s only in Nikon or Sony land?

Come on, guys... We are bathing in a sea of gear at a technical level never seen before on this planet. But it´s not enough, not even close? This is "need next big kick" forum stuff with almost no connection to actual photography.

R52
...Show more






Jul 19, 2024 at 02:13 AM
docusync
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p.5 #9 · Canon departure thoughts


trippalhealick wrote:
I switched from Canon to Sony about 12 years ago, and steadily paying close attention to the other manufacturers' releases has shown me that switching systems after being deeply invested in one is simply trading pros/cons for a new set of (different) pros/cons. Pointless.


I did the opposite in 2016. After shooting the A-mount and getting into the E-mount I was unsatisfied with the number of native lenses. I already had a bunch of EF glass adapted, so getting a Canon body wasn't a big deal. Pretty much right after I did it Sony started pumping out excellent lenses like crazy. So yeah, that was a pointless move, but at least I got to know Canon, and really, it's a nice system. Not worse or better than Sony.
Today keeping both systems allows me to choose lenses freely. I couldn't care less when Sony will be kind enough to release a 85/1.2 - I have the wonderful Canon duo. I'm not buying the Canon 35/1.4 VCM "fish eye" either - I'm happy with my beautiful 35/1.4GM...
The bottom line - any system has its pluses and minuses; you lose some, you gain some, but the absolute value is about the same.



Jul 19, 2024 at 02:15 AM
arbitrage
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p.5 #10 · Canon departure thoughts


Z250SA wrote:
From the all-knowing interweb: "Currently there are only 3 cameras with Eye Control AF. The latest released Eye Control AF cameras are the Canon R5 II, the Canon R1 and the Canon R3".

What?!? The One feature above them all and I cant get the usual pain in the chest when it´s only in Nikon or Sony land?

Come on, guys... We are bathing in a sea of gear at a technical level never seen before on this planet. But it´s not enough, not even close? This is "need next big kick" forum stuff with almost no connection to actual photography.

R52
...Show more

Eye-control AF is not very useful for birds or BIF. I'm constantly scanning everything in the frame other than the bird because the success of bird photos in this day an age is all about the backgrounds as getting the bird in focus is child's play. With eye-control if you start looking around you aren't going to trigger focus on the subject.
I tried it with the R3, didn't seem to be useful what so ever. YMMV.



Jul 19, 2024 at 05:08 AM
bernardl
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p.5 #11 · Canon departure thoughts


Petapixels reports that eye focusing AF still isn’t working for one of their 2 testers if I am not mistaken?

That’s either really unlucky or shows that they just can’t get it to reach an industrial level of reliability, doesn’t it?

It’s a cool marketing trick though, as long as you don’t look too closely. I wonder whether the other features of the R1 have a similar level of reliability? You need to be one of the selected few to reach 40 fps when the moon is aligned with mars? 🤣



Jul 19, 2024 at 06:05 AM
Z250SA
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p.5 #12 · Canon departure thoughts




Eye-control AF is not very useful for birds or BIF. I'm constantly scanning everything in the frame other than the bird because the success of bird photos in this day an age is all about the backgrounds as getting the bird in focus is child's play. With eye-control if you start looking around you aren't going to trigger focus on the subject.
I tried it with the R3, didn't seem to be useful what so ever. YMMV.


Yes, with the R5 in mind I agree, well, child´s play is perhaps a slight exaggeration. But if I had ECAF, I would love to stay with the bird/butterfly/dragonfly. Then again we might do things differently. The big prime on tripod users are much more into the backgrounds than eg me handholding 100-500, 200-800 or 800/11. Any claim has its own operational envelope.

It is still sad that we are so negative about all these goodies. A not too wild a guess is that any BIF photog that has grown into one with his gear over a few years of intense use gets better results than the one who always need the latest&greatest that he (almost always a he) never _really_ gets accustomed to. Getting used to a specific AF takes time. And there is so much more, big or subtle to get used to with any new body-lens combo, from the placement of buttons to the center of gravity, every detail.

Perhaps I don't read thing correctly, but quite often it sounds like its more important to get a 1-series, than to (almost) get what you want but in a 5-series. Yes, I had the 1DX and the 5D3 then 5D4 at the same time, so I know what the 1-series is: really great. But it was only 18Mp and killed by the 30Mp of the 5D4. But the 1DX still has a special place in my mind.




Jul 19, 2024 at 06:17 AM
Z250SA
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p.5 #13 · Canon departure thoughts


bernardl wrote:
Petapixels reports that eye focusing AF still isn’t working for one of their 2 testers if I am not mistaken?

That’s either really unlucky or shows that they just can’t get it to reach an industrial level of reliability, doesn’t it?

It’s a cool marketing trick though, as long as you don’t look too closely. I wonder whether the other features of the R1 have a similar level of reliability? You need to be one of the selected few to reach 40 fps when the moon is aligned with mars? 🤣


Would you prefer that they wait another five years before the bring eye control AF to the market? Taking care that every wild eyed mirrorglassed hotshot gets his desired AF?

Any new tech has its development curve. The sooner a workable version is brought to market, the sooner the early adopters will pay for its development.



Jul 19, 2024 at 06:25 AM
johnvanr
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p.5 #14 · Canon departure thoughts




Yes, with the R5 in mind I agree, well, child´s play is perhaps a slight exaggeration. But if I had ECAF, I would love to stay with the bird/butterfly/dragonfly. Then again we might do things differently. The big prime on tripod users are much more into the backgrounds than eg me handholding 100-500, 200-800 or 800/11. Any claim has its own operational envelope.

It is still sad that we are so negative about all these goodies. A not too wild a guess is that any BIF photog that has grown into one with his gear over a few years of intense use
...Show more

Agreed on the enormous progress. I loved my 1DX and got great shots with it, but it’s an antique compared to the new cameras with their vastly improved focus.

I also think that like with resolution a while back, up to the point that every decent camera delivered good clean images, we’re now starting to banter over mostly details when it comes to camera tech making a real difference in getting results, unless one is a specialist shooter of whatever kind.



Jul 19, 2024 at 06:28 AM
icantbebigwill
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p.5 #15 · Canon departure thoughts


I've jumped from system to system for years now, and it's great for one thing... emptying your wallet. My passion is wildlife, particularly birds. While I make a decent living, having kids really limits your spare funds, so I can't afford (or justify) the big primo primes.

That's why I ended up with Canon. The 200-800, while not a world beater, is an incredible option for someone like me with limited funds. To replicate this lens on any other system would require an expensive teleconverter which will negate any IQ advantage said lens may have had.

With all that being said, on paper at least, I do agree with you that Canon seems to be playing catchup. I was pretty sure I was going to save up for the R5 II however I have a hard time justifying the cost when, again on paper, the Z8 seems to trump it in things like readout speed and can be found used all day on FM under $3,000. It's a somewhat moot point for me since I vastly prefer how the AF systems work from both Canon & Sony vs Nikon, but it's still hard to justify the cost.

Having been spoiled by owning the OG A9 for a few years prior to Canon I definitely miss the stacked sensor. I may look for a used R3 over the next year or 2 if the prices really come down.

Anyway, I've rambled on long enough. Good luck on whatever decision you make!




Jul 19, 2024 at 07:48 AM
Cliff L.
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p.5 #16 · Canon departure thoughts


icantbebigwill wrote:
I've jumped from system to system for years now, and it's great for one thing... emptying your wallet. My passion is wildlife, particularly birds. While I make a decent living, having kids really limits your spare funds, so I can't afford (or justify) the big primo primes.

That's why I ended up with Canon. The 200-800, while not a world beater, is an incredible option for someone like me with limited funds. To replicate this lens on any other system would require an expensive teleconverter which will negate any IQ advantage said lens may have had.



I'm in the same boat - over the past few years I've tried all of the systems, including Fuji and the m4/3 systems, and have come to the conclusion that despite a few gaps in the lens lineup, Canon is the best all-around system for someone like me that shoots a wide range of subjects. It has enough resolution and class-leading dynamic range for landscapes, the best focus bracketing for macro work, and the best AF system for wildlife.

The only all-around system that really competes with Canon is Sony, but the cost of entry is a bit higher than I would like, since I would need an A1 and an A7R V in order to match what my current EOS R5 does. The Sony 200-600 is a nice lens; I currently have it and the RF 100-500 sitting on my desk. I wish the 100-500 had the reach of the 200-600, while at the same time I wish the 200-600 was as sharp or focused as close as the 100-500. Both are great lenses, just in slightly different ways.

My third choice, especially if all I wanted to do was photograph birds, would probably by the Olympus OM System.

A lot of the debate I see on these threads are from people chasing specifications, or quoting hearsay about lens sharpness, but I guess those armchair exercise are a lot easier than getting out and making actual images - something which all current camera systems can do remarkably well these days.

Edited on Jul 19, 2024 at 09:38 AM · View previous versions



Jul 19, 2024 at 09:16 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.5 #17 · Canon departure thoughts


I agree with those who point out (see above) that frequent shifting or even too-frequent updates with the same brand aren’t a good idea. There are a bunch of reasons for this:

1. The instincts we develop with our specific camera and lenses over time eventually let us work much more intuitively and often more quickly in the field. We develop a level of familiarity with the system’s controls and response that is similar to (though, admittedly to at the same level) of a musician’s familiarity with their instrument. Each switch — from model to model or brand to brand — disrupts and resets that.

2. Upgrading too frequently brings pretty minor advantages. While we may convince ourselves that the move from v.1 of something to v.2 is going to make a big difference, once v.2 is in hand we most often find that it doesn’t really change things that much, and certainly not nearly as much as we imagined while convincing ourselves that we really, really needed that shiny new thing. (In general, photographers — and especially forumtographers — tend to obsess about things that are of dubious significance, often driven by a kind of confirmation bias supporting our existing choices and our desire to justify The Next New Thing.

3. And — once again — since brands don’t all offer new models and updates on the same cycle, our Brand New Thing A, with all of its industry leading new features, is bound to be exceeded in some ways by Brand New Thing B from a competitor in a year or two when their next upgrade cycle comes. Some of the real hardcore switchers get an uncontrollable itch every time that “other brand” introduces such an update. (In its worst cases, some of these switchers go from brand to brand on a very short cycle.)

However… none of this means that switching is _never_ appropriate. While jumping brands on a very short cycle is unlikely to bring meaningful or lasting changes, considering a switch based on changes at a brand (or in one’s own photography) on decade(s)-long evolution can make sense. In my view, it is best if it is carefully considered and not rushed, but there are points at which considering a change can make sense.

For many Canon users (including a number who have posted here) the right choice is still to stick with Canon. If you have a stable of RF lenses and the gear isn’t really diminishing the quality of your work, you should almost certainly keep what you have and continue making fine photographs. (If you are an R5 owner, the odds are that you really will not get that much benefit from upgrading to the R5ii.) If you have an investment in RF lenses and are still using a lesser Canon camera and you have solid reasons for updating to an R5-class (or R1-class) camera due to your growth as a photographer, etc., then that R5ii (or even R1) may look pretty appealing.

But some might find themselves in a situation similar to mine — not identical, but conceptually similar. As a photographer for whom the 5DsR has served beautifully, I was unconvinced by the initial R5, so I kept my5DsR (which still works very well) and my EF lenses as I waited for (and expected!) Canon to produce another camera with its particular set of features. My expectation was that when such a camera arrived that I would begin my move to RF lenses, too.

The R5 wasn’t it, and the R5ii isn’t it. I’m not even getting any signals about a future camera that would do it.

So, for me, this IS the time to consider options outside of Canon. While I _could_ just continue with the 5DsR and my EF lenses (and I will for the moment), eventually that isn’t going to be the answer. With that in mind, I’ve been looking around for several years while continuing to use the existing gear. But because ANY choice I make (stick with Canon or move to something else) will entail much more than just buying an updated body (e.g. lenses and things like batteries and L-brackets, etc.) the financial incentive to stick to my current brand is gone.

So for me, and I suspect for at least some of you, this might be one of those rare inflection points where even those of us who are skeptical of the whole “switch-every-few-years” mindset will want to look around a bit as we think about what we’ll use for the next decade or longer.

As someone (who will stick with Canon) wrote earlier in the thread, if they were not already invested in Canon they would not regard it as the obvious right choice at the current moment. That’s not to say that Canon is a bad choice — just that for some of us it may no longer be the best choice. The alternatives are not perfect either, but the balances of pluses and minuses is not the same as it was a decade or more ago.



Jul 19, 2024 at 09:38 AM
tsdevine
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p.5 #18 · Canon departure thoughts


I shot Canon EOS for about 25 years, as it was the system I started with as a teenager. I switched to digital with the 10D. Then my progression was the 20D, 5D, 5D II. I predominantly shoot landscape, often in situations where there is a wide gamut from light to dark. The 5D II shadows just looked pretty bad. I wasn't getting the warm and fuzzies that Canon was really trying to move the meter on sensor technology, etc. Kismet, Sony came out with the a7R and you could use Canon lenses adapted. I was shooting quite a bit of Zeiss ZE back then, so AF wasn't a big concern. So I picked up an a7R as an experiment and here I am today.

The 5DsR came along, but I was already gone. I haven't really seen anything from Canon (or anyone else) that makes me seriously consider switching again. I'm pretty invested in E mount and happy. So those of you who are heavily invested in Canon (especially RF mount), like Dan said, shouldn't take switching lightly. For me it's probably a once in a lifetime thing.

And I know there is the "good enough" argument, but "good enough" is not a fixed bar that everyone would agree on. Shooting styles and preferences, etc. Everyone has to make that decision for themselves. And obviously there are a bunch of people shooting Canon that are happy, so it really comes down to what makes sense for you.

It was more of a "gut" thing for me based on the vibes I was getting, so I dipped my toe in a different pool.

In any case, I'm not suggesting people switch, as I said above...it should not be taken lightly (depending on how invested you are in a system.)



Jul 19, 2024 at 09:55 AM
johnvanr
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p.5 #19 · Canon departure thoughts


tsdevine wrote:
I shot Canon EOS for about 25 years, as it was the system I started with as a teenager. I switched to digital with the 10D. Then my progression was the 20D, 5D, 5D II. I predominantly shoot landscape, often in situations where there is a wide gamut from light to dark. The 5D II shadows just looked pretty bad. I wasn't getting the warm and fuzzies that Canon was really trying to move the meter on sensor technology, etc. Kismet, Sony came out with the a7R and you could use Canon lenses adapted. I was shooting quite a bit
...Show more

So, you made the switch eons ago when there were larger differences between camera generations and assume that still applies now? I’m sorry, but we have since reached a plateau where improvements are much more marginal than they used to be. Different considerations apply.



Jul 19, 2024 at 10:04 AM
RoamingScott
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p.5 #20 · Canon departure thoughts


I will play devil's advocate. If you have the means to do so monetarily without significant stress to your financials or marital situation...

Often buying and trying (and selling if you don't like) is cheaper in the long run than renting. The added advantage is that you can keep the gear far longer, and if you buy used, you don't eat so much depreciation.

Half of knowing what you like and what works well for you is knowing what you dislike. When I had the R5 in hand, the left hand power button was an immediate dealbreaker for me. The latency of the mode selector was such a bad experience that not many reviewers touched on. I didn't know that until I had the chance to try to live with it.

I didn't expect to like the Z9. Everyone bitched about how big it was, how ungainly use was, etc. Turns out, I fell in love with it the moment I held it, despite never having an integrated grip camera before.

All of these things are just part of the journey of finding the tools we vibe with. Whether you catch and release like me, or just rent for a week at a time, there's a lot of value in trying as much as you can to laser focus on your actual needs and preferences.



Jul 19, 2024 at 10:08 AM
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