p.6 #5 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
Newenglandrocks wrote:
Thanks everyone for another interesting thread. I’m also a A7RV + A9 owner, and I haven’t shot the same subjects, or even tried tracking a fast moving object much with my A7RV, so I can’t weigh in on tracking birds or fit young adults, yet in comparison.
But the original topic of this thread is about 4K stacked sensor cameras. Sony is the market leader for interchangeable lens mirrorless and one of the really weird things in this market is the lock in a Sony gets once a customer has bought into e-mount. Even though Nikon is a reasonably compelling alternative to Sony in the wildlife and birding market, they simply won’t get many switchers due to the cost of switching out the GM glass to the Nikon Z telephotos. Not many will switch and the bodies won’t be driving it.
We can gnash our teeth and jump up and down from the sidelines, but the vast majority of us are not going to be switching systems due to the amount of money we have sunk into e-mount glass. I only give half a shit about what Canon or Nikon is doing with their systems because they’re only playing catch (mostly). Like many of you, I’ll be on that A1ii preorder list when it happens. Sony knows that as the market leader with a very sticky commodity - e-mount and its associated glass - so they will not throw us a bone by pricing the A1ii at $6K or less. I’ll be happy to fork out full retail up to $7500 on day 1 like the rest of you all. It will be cheaper than switching systems, for sure.
And I suspect that while this crowd heavily skews towards shooting longer telephotos and wildlife, if you are mainly shooting portraits, events, landscapes and/or field sports like myself, then you’d be a moron to switch systems, and there is no way a $4K stacked body from the competition is going to make you sell all your glass at >$4K loss. Personally, I’d like see a lot more competitive heat from Nikon and Canon in the form of a wider variety of wide to regular focal length glass plus better bodies. As others have said, until Sony really feels the heat, expect to pay market leader pricing for the foreseeable future. Any other posturing about “this new [Canon or Nikon] camera is the greatest / best value” is full on BS until Sony bean counters sit up and take notice due to falling market share.
Final word, since I’ve gone on too far about this - Sony is bringing new ”lifers” into the fold with their excellent vlogging cameras in FF and APS-C. Until Nikon and Canon jump onto this bandwagon of folks who shoot way more video than stills, their mounts are going to continue to lose market share full stop....Show more →
I think Canon has overtaken Sony for mirrorless camera sales. R6ii was heavily discounted locally making it significantly cheaper than a7m4.
Nikon z8 was doing well but because of its price point probably not that many units. Sony should have already felt the heat.
p.6 #6 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
wind30 wrote:
I think Canon has overtaken Sony for mirrorless camera sales. R6ii was heavily discounted locally making it significantly cheaper than a7m4.
Nikon z8 was doing well but because of its price point probably not that many units. Sony should have already felt the heat.
p.6 #7 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
chez wrote:
What price do you think that would come at? Surely it would be at least $1000 - $2000 more than today’s A7R5. Why not just pick up a used A1 for $4,000?
It’s used and still very expensive in my country. And you lose AI af, the new tilting screen and improved ibis. These are the impt stuff I remember. I kind if agree it is unlikely Sony will release a $3.5k stacked camera anytime soon. I bought the a9 brand new for around 3k usd many years back and I am still using it. It is sad Sony has given up on this segment, unless they add in a new camera series… since a9iii is out, a1ii will be very expensive. Only chance is they give a7m5 a stacked sensor…. But I highly doubt it. I will probably wait for a7m5 announcement and then jump to Nikon z8 or z7iii or Canon r5ii when it goes on sale.
p.6 #8 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
chez wrote:
Reference on mirrorless market share for 2024.
Google , the 2023 sales data are out all over internet. 2024 haven’t ended so I doubt there is data for it…. I am surprised too because I thought Sony was the leader but I think the r6ii discounted price is really attractive. I also bought one because it was 1.9k usd but I sold it off at 1.7k because I did not like it.
p.6 #10 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
wind30 wrote:
Google , the 2023 sales data are out all over internet. 2024 haven’t ended so I doubt there is data for it…. I am surprised too because I thought Sony was the leader but I think the r6ii discounted price is really attractive. I also bought one because it was 1.9k usd but I sold it off at 1.7k because I did not like it.
Thing to keep track of is market share of units shipped versus market share of revenue. Sony cameras aren't cheap and they go after revenue more than units.
p.6 #11 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
chez wrote:
Thing to keep track of is market share of units shipped versus market share of revenue. Sony cameras aren't cheap and they go after revenue more than units.
You are right that Sony camera is more expensive but I think revenue wise Canon is still in the lead. Canon also own almost 100% of rf ff mount sales so it kind of make sense for them to discount their bodies heavily.
p.6 #12 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
wind30 wrote:
It’s used and still very expensive in my country. And you lose AI af, the new tilting screen and improved ibis. These are the impt stuff I remember. I kind if agree it is unlikely Sony will release a $3.5k stacked camera anytime soon. I bought the a9 brand new for around 3k usd many years back and I am still using it. It is sad Sony has given up on this segment, unless they add in a new camera series… since a9iii is out, a1ii will be very expensive. Only chance is they give a7m5 a stacked sensor…. But I highly doubt it. I will probably wait for a7m5 announcement and then jump to Nikon z8 or z7iii or Canon r5ii when it goes on sale....Show more →
Once A1ii is released, new A1 should cost around $4.5k.
wind30 wrote:
Google , the 2023 sales data are out all over internet. 2024 haven’t ended so I doubt there is data for it…. I am surprised too because I thought Sony was the leader but I think the r6ii discounted price is really attractive. I also bought one because it was 1.9k usd but I sold it off at 1.7k because I did not like it.
Sony hasn't been #1 yet. If you want to talk about 2023 share, you have to look at 2022 share too. I don't think Sony lost market share from 2022 to 2023. I think Canon lost several percentage points.
p.6 #13 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
tctmp wrote:
Once A1ii is released, new A1 should cost around $4.5k.
Sony hasn't been #1 yet. If you want to talk about 2023 share, you have to look at 2022 share too. I don't think Sony lost market share from 2022 to 2023. I think Canon lost several percentage points.
?? We are talking about mirrorless camera. I am pretty sure Sony was no 1 for quite a few years…. And along the way lost the lead to Canon.
p.6 #14 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
wind30 wrote:
?? We are talking about mirrorless camera. I am pretty sure Sony was no 1 for quite a few years…. And along the way lost the lead to Canon.
So you treat Canon as a starting from zero mirrorless camera company? All the users base and IP it accumulated in DSLR don't count? Even Sony had to buy Minolta which was a DSLR company to get started.
Mirrorless or DSLR, it's always a single market. They have always competed against each other. Canon/Nikon just decided to put more emphasis on DSLR earlier, that's all.
p.6 #15 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
tctmp wrote:
So you treat Canon as a starting from zero mirrorless camera company? All the users base and IP it accumulated in DSLR don't count? Even Sony had to buy Minolta which was a DSLR company to get started.
Mirrorless or DSLR, it's always a single market. They have always competed against each other. Canon/Nikon just decided to put more emphasis on DSLR earlier, that's all.
? I don’t think u can lump DSLR and mirrorless together in this context which is how much competition is Canon and Nikon giving Sony. Sony played in the mirrorless market mainly and they had it easy in the early days when Canon and Nikon were not doing mirrorless, allowing Sony to build up market share. If u lump the DSLR mirrorless numbers together, it would not reflect the lack of competition in the early years.
But I think the numbers do show, at least for Canon, Sony is facing stiff competition even in mirrorless market today.
p.6 #16 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
wind30 wrote:
I think Canon has overtaken Sony for mirrorless camera sales. R6ii was heavily discounted locally making it significantly cheaper than a7m4.
Nikon z8 was doing well but because of its price point probably not that many units. Sony should have already felt the heat.
Ahahaha!
I just saw something later in the day about Canon leading overall mirrorless marketshare after I wrote my post. I am curious as to who owns the FF ILC mirrorless market crown ATM. It would be great if I'm wrong and we see Sony respond with an aggressive move with the pricing on the A1ii. But I am not holding my breath and I'm prepared to drop $7500 for one on release day
p.6 #17 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
wind30 wrote:
? I don’t think u can lump DSLR and mirrorless together in this context which is how much competition is Canon and Nikon giving Sony. Sony played in the mirrorless market mainly and they had it easy in the early days when Canon and Nikon were not doing mirrorless, allowing Sony to build up market share. If u lump the DSLR mirrorless numbers together, it would not reflect the lack of competition in the early years.
But I think the numbers do show, at least for Canon, Sony is facing stiff competition even in mirrorless market today.
They may be accounted separately to get better insights into the data, but mirrorless and DSLR belong to the same market and they compete against each other. Otherwise you can't explain why mirrorless number is expanding while DSLR is shrinking if one market does not affect the other. Because people move between the two. Because people don't care whether it's mirrorless or DSLR. The buying decision is based on the performance, feature, cost attributes. To many users, from DSLR to mirrorless is just another iteration of the camera they upgrade to.
I don't think Canon can even crack 10% market share without its existing DSLR user base. Very few people starting from scratch are buying Canon these days. Most people who are still buying Canon already own it in the past, and it's because they are used to the system, have legacy equipment they don't want to waste, etc, despite the trailing of its technology. Even that, many past Canon users have moved away. Just check out the Canon forum to find out how people feel about its new releases.
I don't see any limitation if Sony wants to increase its market share. It can simply lower the prices of some of its offerings. I think instead it's comfortable with its share and wants to maximize its profit instead. Basically it feels that it's done the hard work and wants to harvest the results now.
Now if someone still want to buy Canon at this stage of the game though, it's their choice. I wouldn't touch it at all.
p.6 #18 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
While I would love the A7RV to be a stacked sensor at 60 Mpixels it is .not there yet and impacted Dynamic Range which for its market is probably not the right move. Also lowering the existing A1 price to sub $4000 to compete with the Z8 or $4300 to compete with the Canon EOS R5 II may or may not work for Sony but clearly their 45 Mpixel sensor that Nikon uses really can’t be that much less to build I would think unless it eliminates some unique processing steps or is refined from the 50 Mpixel version to lower cost. Maybe the A1’s flagship features pushed up the price higher at a time when they’re no competition but now it’s keeping Sony out of the $4000 price point. So if the A1 II comes out at ~ $6500 then Sony needs to be able to sell the A1 at or below $4300 and probably needs to invest in another firmware update to add features like the new EOS R5 II has like pre capture and 14-bit RAW at 30 FPS.
p.6 #19 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
I just got a used Z8 with megadap ETZ21 pro and it seems to work flawlessly with my sony lens, 24, 35mm gm, sigma 35mm f1.2. The AF is rock solid, the lens button works and programmable, aperture ring works flawlessly, ACR recognise the lens and apply the profile automatically to all the raw files. I can't seem to find any downside.
It is like Nikon made a camera for e-mount that Sony missed.
I have an A7R5 and A9 and I thought I will hate the Z8 size and weight but it made using the sigma 35mm f1.2 MUCH more pleasant, the lens and body seems to be sized right. I am worried about the weight on the thin adapter though as Megadap said to hold the lens and the body if lens I heavier than 800g....
All these discussion about when Sony is coming out with an e-mount affordable stacked sensor camera... I strongly suggest anyone waiting to give Z8+megadap ETZ21 Pro a try.
The Z8 is refreshing different from my sony bodies... there are advantages and disadvantages to such a large camera... at first I thought I won't like the size of Z8 but after using it for a few days, I have grown to like it a lot.
I got my 3 month old Z8 for 3k USD.
Compared to A7r5, Z8 is better for
1) fast e-Shutter
2) video recording
A7R5
1) better EVF
2) Better battery life by quite a lot.
3) the a7r5 mount is weather sealed while the adaptor mount with Z8 seems to be not weather sealed and there is very small play when mounted.
That's all I can think of. A lot of other stuff like AF, VR/IBIS, which I thought will be adv for A7R5 since I am adapting lens, seems to be even, which is amazing.
p.6 #20 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
wind30 wrote:
I just got a used Z8 with megadap ETZ21 pro and it seems to work flawlessly with my sony lens, 24, 35mm gm, sigma 35mm f1.2. The AF is rock solid, the lens button works and programmable, aperture ring works flawlessly, ACR recognise the lens and apply the profile automatically to all the raw files. I can't seem to find any downside.
It is like Nikon made a camera for e-mount that Sony missed.
I have an A7R5 and A9 and I thought I will hate the Z8 size and weight but it made using the sigma 35mm f1.2 MUCH more pleasant, the lens and body seems to be sized right. I am worried about the weight on the thin adapter though as Megadap said to hold the lens and the body if lens I heavier than 800g....
All these discussion about when Sony is coming out with an e-mount affordable stacked sensor camera... I strongly suggest anyone waiting to give Z8+megadap ETZ21 Pro a try.
The Z8 is refreshing different from my sony bodies... there are advantages and disadvantages to such a large camera... at first I thought I won't like the size of Z8 but after using it for a few days, I have grown to like it a lot.
I got my 3 month old Z8 for 3k USD.
Compared to A7r5, Z8 is better for
1) fast e-Shutter
2) video recording
A7R5
1) better EVF
2) Better battery life by quite a lot.
3) the a7r5 mount is weather sealed while the adaptor mount with Z8 seems to be not weather sealed and there is very small play when mounted.
That's all I can think of. A lot of other stuff like AF, VR/IBIS, which I thought will be adv for A7R5 since I am adapting lens, seems to be even, which is amazing. ...Show more →
I’ve been saying for a long time that Sony should make an “A8” line which would be now their answer to the Z8 and R5MKII
45mp stacked sensor
5m dot EVF
20fps
A9III style body and screen
4k video
