Archive 2024 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nik...
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p.3 #1 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
I think I mostly want ergonomic changes (A9III body and screen), better IBIS and faster processing (not burst rate, but things like wake time, time to format etc). I don't really do as much super fast BIF as I did when I bought my A1, so I don't really feel the need for improvements that are primarily focused for high-speed action.
p.3 #2 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
Question for the group. The Nikon Z6III is the first camera we’re I’ve heard about a “partial stacked sensor”. Some seem to think this is technology Sony has but how do we know this since I don’t know of a Sony camera with it. Is this some capability Nikon acquired through its association with RED?
I know Sony’s Global shutter is not necessarily unique (at least in concept if not implementation) I had never heard of partially stacked.
p.3 #3 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
swldstn wrote:
Question for the group. The Nikon Z6III is the first camera we’re I’ve heard about a “partial stacked sensor”. Some seem to think this is technology Sony has but how do we know this since I don’t know of a Sony camera with it. Is this some capability Nikon acquired through its association with RED?
I know Sony’s Global shutter is not necessarily unique (at least in concept if not implementation) I had never heard of partially stacked.
Share your thoughts.ii
Rumors of the A7 IV being delayed, if true, would mean it should've had the sensor (or at least the tech) first, with the Z6 III following behind it. Kind of like the A6300 back in the day being delayed, so the Fuji X-T2 launched with its unique sensor (copper wiring) first. Either way, as long as this is a Sony sensor, expect to see the tech in future Sonys. Might become the norm in a generation.
p.3 #4 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
BlueBomberTurbo wrote:
You definitely need a shutter unless you're only shooting under sunlight. Still rolling shutter banding out there on shutterless stacked cameras from lights, electronic signs, and flash. And partially stacked sensors are (apparently) way slower than even the first generation of stacked sensors.
I don't have an A1, but my understanding is the main reason to use the mechanical shutter on it is the get the flash sync times of 1/400 that it offers. I may have missed it but I have not seen people saying the A1 electronic shutter, the Z8 or Z9 have much more issues with LED lights compared to the mechanical shutters that came before them.
For partially stacked sensors, I think it's safe to day they will be keeping there shutters, at least for now. The technology will need to get to readout times of at least 1/200 to ditch the mechanical shutter from what we have seen so far with stacked sensors.
Which makes sense when we had some very popular DSLRs that had flash sync speeds of 1/200.
p.3 #5 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
DWOfPaul wrote:
I don't have an A1, but my understanding is the main reason to use the mechanical shutter on it is the get the flash sync times of 1/400 that it offers. I may have missed it but I have not seen people saying the A1 electronic shutter, the Z8 or Z9 have much more issues with LED lights compared to the mechanical shutters that came before them.
For partially stacked sensors, I think it's safe to day they will be keeping there shutters, at least for now. The technology will need to get to readout times of at least 1/200 to ditch the mechanical shutter from what we have seen so far with stacked sensors.
Which makes sense when we had some very popular DSLRs that had flash sync speeds of 1/200. ...Show more →
Definitely plenty of issues with the Z8/9 (1/270 readout) with high-frequency artificial lighting. LED signs and concert lighting can be brick walls. Issues with high-speed sync banding, as well. The A1 would encounter the same problems, since its sensor is a hair slower. A mechanical shutter eliminates these issues in all but the most extreme situations, where it will still not be nearly as intrusive (smooth, wide transition vs hard edge banding). Only global shutter can truly get rid of the mechanical shutter and still be usable in all situations.
p.3 #6 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
BlueBomberTurbo wrote:
You definitely need a shutter unless you're only shooting under sunlight. Still rolling shutter banding out there on shutterless stacked cameras from lights, electronic signs, and flash. And partially stacked sensors are (apparently) way slower than even the first generation of stacked sensors.
Yes - personally I think they should be dubbed "marginally stacked sensors"... better reflecting both the fact that the stacking hardware is only on the edge of the sensor, and the... really rather limited resulting difference the feature makes. "Partial" is a bit too generous/ambiguous/implies more than you get.
Every improvement is welcome of course. But it feels like "not enough", to me. I would feel like I was buying something that just "wasn't quite there yet", if I were buying one today - I would only settle for it because I had to for budget reasons (or because I absolutely needed a new camera now and couldn't wait for better). I've had a stacked a9 mark 1 since they became relatively inexpensive for a little while around (I think?) 2020, prior to leaving the market altogether/going out of production. Probably cost me the same as the price of a new Z6iii now! A fully stacked sensor is the "right" answer to a lot of tech problems (like EFCS-bokeh/vignetting, and distorted moving objects arising from rolling shutter, and blackout), without the dynamic range limitations of global shutter, which I suspect will never be fully resolved. I'm still good with my a9 and haven't seen anything like its (temporary) price and performance offering since purchasing. We need a lot more (genuinely) stacked sensors eventually, and as others have said, they'd be perfect for the A7C line.
p.3 #7 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
GHarris wrote:
Yes - personally I think they should be dubbed "marginally stacked sensors"... better reflecting both the fact that the stacking hardware is only on the edge of the sensor, and the... really rather limited resulting difference the feature makes. "Partial" is a bit too generous/ambiguous/implies more than you get.
Every improvement is welcome of course. But it feels like "not enough", to me. I would feel like I was buying something that just "wasn't quite there yet", if I were buying one today - I would only settle for it because I had to for budget reasons (or because I absolutely needed a new camera now and couldn't wait for better). I've had a stacked a9 mark 1 since they became relatively inexpensive for a little while around (I think?) 2020, prior to leaving the market altogether/going out of production. Probably cost me the same as the price of a new Z6iii now! A fully stacked sensor is the "right" answer to a lot of tech problems (like EFCS-bokeh/vignetting, and distorted moving objects arising from rolling shutter, and blackout), without the dynamic range limitations of global shutter, which I suspect will never be fully resolved. I'm still good with my a9 and haven't seen anything like its (temporary) price and performance offering since purchasing. We need a lot more (genuinely) stacked sensors eventually, and as others have said, they'd be perfect for the A7C line....Show more →
1/60s is not bad for an entry level-ish body, esp. compared to 1/15s of A7IV.
p.3 #8 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
GHarris wrote:
Yes - personally I think they should be dubbed "marginally stacked sensors"... better reflecting both the fact that the stacking hardware is only on the edge of the sensor, and the... really rather limited resulting difference the feature makes. "Partial" is a bit too generous/ambiguous/implies more than you get.
Every improvement is welcome of course. But it feels like "not enough", to me. I would feel like I was buying something that just "wasn't quite there yet", if I were buying one today - I would only settle for it because I had to for budget reasons (or because I absolutely needed a new camera now and couldn't wait for better). I've had a stacked a9 mark 1 since they became relatively inexpensive for a little while around (I think?) 2020, prior to leaving the market altogether/going out of production. Probably cost me the same as the price of a new Z6iii now! A fully stacked sensor is the "right" answer to a lot of tech problems (like EFCS-bokeh/vignetting, and distorted moving objects arising from rolling shutter, and blackout), without the dynamic range limitations of global shutter, which I suspect will never be fully resolved. I'm still good with my a9 and haven't seen anything like its (temporary) price and performance offering since purchasing. We need a lot more (genuinely) stacked sensors eventually, and as others have said, they'd be perfect for the A7C line....Show more →
I'd be happy with a modest readout speed improvement at a modest price increase. And for all we know, the difference in price between Z6 II and Z6 III might mostly be from inflation, with only a minor increase from partial stacking. We'll get an idea of how much it impacts price once Sony's cameras with the tech come out.
And yes, I'm loving my OG A9s! Fast enough for all the sports I've used it for (hockey, basketball, soccer, football, baseball), and great in low light. Lens performance is a lot more integral to your success at that point. Got mine both for around $1500 each, both with just 50K on their shutters, and I'm barely upping that count. Still run into some issues with high frequency lighting at some events, but so do the newest stacked cameras.
p.3 #10 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
jhapeman wrote:
"Partially stacked" sounds like marketing language meant to cash in on the popularity/perceived superiority of true stacked sensors.
A sensor is stacked or it's not, sort of like you can't be partially pregnant.
Why post something so blatantly false? Of course the Z6III sensor is "partially" stacked...those upper and lower strips have your typical stacked circuitry, but the rest of the sensor doesn't. How else would you describe it?
Clearly this design improved the overall sensor readout speed vs the old non-stacked design.
p.3 #12 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
RoamingScott wrote:
Why post something so blatantly false? Of course the Z6III sensor is "partially" stacked...those upper and lower strips have your typical stacked circuitry, but the rest of the sensor doesn't. How else would you describe it?
Clearly this design improved the overall sensor readout speed vs the old non-stacked design.
Because it's not false? Just do some basic research on what a real stacked sensor is and why it matters. This new one is NOT stacked. It's a modification of the typical style of sensor designed to speed it up a little bit but without the more complicated structure and associated costs of a true stacked sensor. Simple as that. Without the popularity of stacked sensors and what they enable there would be no need to use the term "partially stacked" for this. It's an obvious marketing ploy.
p.3 #14 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
What ever it might be. Marketing BS or "false info" is irrelevant. Nikon just stepped up the camera game and seems to be a worthy competitor to the A7IV. 24mp is not a factor...if you listen to the A9III people.
Steve Perry's review of a pre production model sounds like the Z6III the real deal. Of course we shall see what becomes of it in production models.
Now...can Sony do the same thing in a future A7V at the same price point?
p.3 #15 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
AZHeaven wrote:
What ever it might be. Marketing BS or "false info" is irrelevant. Nikon just stepped up the camera game and seems to be a worthy competitor to the A7IV. 24mp is not a factor...if you listen to the A9III people.
Steve Perry's review of a pre production model sounds like the Z6III the real deal. Of course we shall see what becomes of it in production models.
Now...can Sony do the same thing in a future A7V at the same price point?
Pretty sure Sony was the one who stepped up the camera game, and Nikon just hit a check box to add it to their Sony sensor specs checklist. Sony had stacked tech first in 2017. Then they went up a notch with 2nd generation in 2021. Timing's right for the next evolution in stacking from Sony, and this should be it. Stacking for the masses.
p.3 #16 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
AZHeaven wrote:
What ever it might be. Marketing BS or "false info" is irrelevant. Nikon just stepped up the camera game and seems to be a worthy competitor to the A7IV. 24mp is not a factor...if you listen to the A9III people.
Steve Perry's review of a pre production model sounds like the Z6III the real deal. Of course we shall see what becomes of it in production models.
Now...can Sony do the same thing in a future A7V at the same price point?
How so? They have finally released something vaguely close to the A7II/A7III/A7IV that have been around for ages, and it comes short in many areas like megapixel count, battery life and more. Sounds like they are just catching up at this point, not "stepping up the game."
p.3 #17 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
jhapeman wrote:
How so? They have finally released something vaguely close to the A7II/A7III/A7IV that have been around for ages, and it comes short in many areas like megapixel count, battery life and more. Sounds like they are just catching up at this point, not "stepping up the game."
I have to agree with this as it really is behind the curve we already have in Sony. Look I shot Nikon most of my whole career but they never jumped off the pot to go mirrorless and granted they maybe advancing mirrorless to there user base but its still behind the curve. Not saying they are bad but still behind. Where is there global shutter
p.3 #18 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
jhapeman wrote:
How so? They have finally released something vaguely close to the A7II/A7III/A7IV that have been around for ages, and it comes short in many areas like megapixel count, battery life and more. Sounds like they are just catching up at this point, not "stepping up the game."
because 10fps is sooooo 2014. The Z6 III with 14fps in mech. shutter, and 20fps in e-shutter with little to no noticeable rolling shutter is a big thing for wildlife/sports shooters, especially if one can't afford a Z8/Z9.
For video: 4k 60p with no crop, 4k120p with 1.5 crop, internal ProRes RAW recording. The low 24MP is also to help reduce rolling shutter in video.
As a long-time Sony shooter (since 2008), and working part-time at a camera shop, I would have no problems suggesting this camera to people with those needs.
p.3 #19 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
trainerKEN wrote:
because 10fps is sooooo 2014. The Z6 III with 14fps in mech. shutter, and 20fps in e-shutter with little to no noticeable rolling shutter is a big thing for wildlife/sports shooters, especially if one can't afford a Z8/Z9.
For video: 4k 60p with no crop, 4k120p with 1.5 crop, internal ProRes RAW recording. The low 24MP is also to help reduce rolling shutter in video.
As a long-time Sony shooter (since 2008), and working part-time at a camera shop, I would have no problems suggesting this camera to people with those needs.
Well, that's what happens when you compare the newest camera to one that's 3.5 years old. If Nikon couldn't surpass that, this would be their nail the coffin. Expect most of those features and more in the A7 V.
p.3 #20 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
The Z6iii seems like the modern equivalent of what the A7iii was...an affordable, do it all, mechanical shutter camera that had the latest and greatest tech put into it and went on to be a workhorse for many years.
Sony missed the opportunity with the A7iv and pushed sort of a turd with that camera. Now the pressure is on for them to step it up again. Great for Sony, great for Nikon, great for consumers.
Of course you're going to get the short-sighted fanboy reactions in here since it's a Sony thread, but this camera is gonna sell like hotcakes, and good news for Sony is they get a cut of each sale thanks to that sensor.
Sony has historically overpriced the market and then offered silly deals in the background through EDU and under the table vendor discounts. Not sure they can be so bold with the Z6iii coming in at $2500 even.
