p.4 #1 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
RoamingScott wrote:
The Z6iii seems like the modern equivalent of what the A7iii was...an affordable, do it all, mechanical shutter camera that had the latest and greatest tech put into it and went on to be a workhorse for many years.
Sony missed the opportunity with the A7iv and pushed sort of a turd with that camera. Now the pressure is on for them to step it up again. Great for Sony, great for Nikon, great for consumers.
Of course you're going to get the short-sighted fanboy reactions in here since it's a Sony thread, but this camera is gonna sell like hotcakes, and good news for Sony is they get a cut of each sale thanks to that sensor.
Sony has historically overpriced the market and then offered silly deals in the background through EDU and under the table vendor discounts. Not sure they can be so bold with the Z6iii coming in at $2500 even....Show more →
The Z6III is 2.5 years later than the A7IV. It should be better and Nikon needed to step forward and they have I think at the price point they chose. Now at the three year anniversary of the A7IV Sony can introduce a camera that exceeds the Z6III if they want. They can make a similar move with Canon if Canon ever makes the EOS R5 II a reality (supposedly now in August 2024).
It would help Sony in the space of the Z6III / A7IV / A7V if they completely refreshed all their f/1.8 primes as G type similar to the FE 20/1.8 G and show that Nikon is not the only one that can produce quality, affordable f/1.8 lenses.
p.4 #2 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
jhapeman wrote:
How so? They have finally released something vaguely close to the A7II/A7III/A7IV that have been around for ages, and it comes short in many areas like megapixel count, battery life and more. Sounds like they are just catching up at this point, not "stepping up the game."
Same price point as the A7IV. Semi stacked sensor. Unlimited buffer. Better EVF. Brighter viewfinder. Better LCD screen. 20fps vs 10. I could go on. And why all of a sudden does megapixel count? Like I mentioned. The A9III has "only" 24mp. But Nikon comes out with a 24mp sensor and it's "catching up"?
And before I get blasted...no, I'm not switching to Nikon. I'm sticking with Sony. Retired, on disability, I don't have money to burn.
p.4 #3 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
AZHeaven wrote:
Same price point as the A7IV. Semi stacked sensor. Unlimited buffer. Better EVF. Brighter viewfinder. Better LCD screen. 20fps vs 10. I could go on. And why all of a sudden does megapixel count? Like I mentioned. The A9III has "only" 24mp. But Nikon comes out with a 24mp sensor and it's "catching up"?
And before I get blasted...no, I'm not switching to Nikon. I'm sticking with Sony. Retired, on disability, I don't have money to burn.
Semi-stacked means nothing really at this point except it has faster readout. The rest, OK fine buy you're comparing a camera that's three years old and due for a replacement, so my point was "stepping up their game" is a bit of a silly statement since they are literally just barely exceeding the specs on an old Sony that's going to be replaced.
Your megapixel statement is nonsense. You know they have always mattered, and for two cameras in same class and price bracket it's an important comparison. The A9III is a 120fps global shutter camera; comparing that to the A7V and Z6III is just silly.
You are literally comparing apples and oranges at this point.
p.4 #4 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
BlueBomberTurbo wrote:
Definitely plenty of issues with the Z8/9 (1/270 readout) with high-frequency artificial lighting. LED signs and concert lighting can be brick walls. Issues with high-speed sync banding, as well. The A1 would encounter the same problems, since its sensor is a hair slower. A mechanical shutter eliminates these issues in all but the most extreme situations, where it will still not be nearly as intrusive (smooth, wide transition vs hard edge banding). Only global shutter can truly get rid of the mechanical shutter and still be usable in all situations.
The A1 has another advantage regarding IQ and banding is that it reads each line sequentially, 1 by 1, at 1/250, whereas the Z8/9 reads a little bit quicker but in groups of 12 lines.
What this means is when there is banding, the transition will appear smooth on the A1 but will be very noticeable on the Z8/9 because there will be some strange blocks of 12 pixels. The Z8/9 behave exactly like the A9mk1/2 in that respect, which also reads groups of 12 lines and that creates similar artifacts.
Regarding the main question, as someone pointed out, Sony doesn't mind at all if Nikon is successful. In fact, it's quite the contrary, the more successful Nikon becomes, the more sensors they buy from Sony! So, I wouldn't expect Sony to react to Nikon, but to Canon.
p.4 #5 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
octo wrote:
The A1 has another advantage regarding IQ and banding is that it reads each line sequentially, 1 by 1, at 1/250, whereas the Z8/9 reads a little bit quicker but in groups of 12 lines.
What this means is when there is banding, the transition will appear smooth on the A1 but will be very noticeable on the Z8/9 because there will be some strange blocks of 12 pixels. The Z8/9 behave exactly like the A9mk1/2 in that respect, which also reads groups of 12 lines and that creates similar artifacts.
A1 also reads in blocks...
Jun 20, 2024 at 08:58 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #6 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
jhapeman wrote:
Semi-stacked means nothing really at this point except it has faster readout. The rest, OK fine buy you're comparing a camera that's three years old and due for a replacement, so my point was "stepping up their game" is a bit of a silly statement since they are literally just barely exceeding the specs on an old Sony that's going to be replaced.
Your megapixel statement is nonsense. You know they have always mattered, and for two cameras in same class and price bracket it's an important comparison. The A9III is a 120fps global shutter camera; comparing that to the A7V and Z6III is just silly.
You are literally comparing apples and oranges at this point....Show more →
It seems to me that tripling the sensor scan speed, doubling the fps, making the EVF blackout free, and making the buffer unlimited is a lot more that just barely exceeding the specs of the old Sony. Sony better have something up their sleeve with the A7V. I think they will but I expect at least 1/50 sensor scan speed (instead of the now 1/15), at least 15 fps (instead of the now 10 fps), and a blackout free EVF and an unlimited buffer. It is great for Sony that Nikon used a partially stacked sensor for the Z6 III, and I think we can now expect a 33 MP partially stacked sensor in the A7V. Competition is good for producing improvements in new models.
p.4 #8 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
BlueBomberTurbo wrote:
Definitely plenty of issues with the Z8/9 (1/270 readout) with high-frequency artificial lighting. LED signs and concert lighting can be brick walls. Issues with high-speed sync banding, as well. The A1 would encounter the same problems, since its sensor is a hair slower. A mechanical shutter eliminates these issues in all but the most extreme situations, where it will still not be nearly as intrusive (smooth, wide transition vs hard edge banding). Only global shutter can truly get rid of the mechanical shutter and still be usable in all situations.
Thanks for the info, searching LED signs led to much more info. Might have to consider keeping a camera with a mechanical shutter in my kit for longer than I was thinking. Hopefully stacked sensors will keep getting faster and this will be less of an issue over time.
For anyone else wondering, from what I read, the banding with mechanical shutter while still present, have softer edges than the banding you get with electronic shutters, which makes them less noticeable and distracting. Also the quicker read out time for example 1/250 instead of 1/200 helps reduce some of the the banding too.
p.4 #9 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
Does the partially stacked sensor improve on the number of AF calculations? I'm not sure what the relationship between readout speed and AF calculations is, or if there is one at all.
I don't really care too much about using silent shutter, but the current AI AF system with improved tracking would be pretty tempting for me. I've been considering a used A9/A9II but I'm probably going to wait a bit and see if the A7V shows up this fall.
p.4 #10 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
Steve Spencer wrote:
It seems to me that tripling the sensor scan speed, doubling the fps, making the EVF blackout free, and making the buffer unlimited is a lot more that just barely exceeding the specs of the old Sony. Sony better have something up their sleeve with the A7V. I think they will but I expect at least 1/50 sensor scan speed (instead of the now 1/15), at least 15 fps (instead of the now 10 fps), and a blackout free EVF and an unlimited buffer. It is great for Sony that Nikon used a partially stacked sensor for the Z6 III, and I think we can now expect a 33 MP partially stacked sensor in the A7V. Competition is good for producing improvements in new models....Show more →
The EVF is not blackout free and the "unlimited" buffer is more a function of a slower fps and lower megapixel count. The camera just can't outstrip that buffer as the files are too small and the fps too low.
The improved EVF is something every new camera has these days; comparing that to the 3+ year old A7IV is a bit of an apples and oranges comparisons. Even DPReview's preview states that the Z6III took Nikon's offering from "the back of the pack" in its class. Time moves on, specs change.
I would expect any updated Sony A7V to have all of those bases covered pretty easily. Given that they've ported it to every other body, it should also have the AI focusing system which is much more flexible and configurable than the Nikon offering, which doesn't even have a dedicated "Bird" mode on the Z6III. The only open question really whether Sony will have an updated sensor that increases the readout speed for that reduced rolling shutter and faster fps.
p.4 #11 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
formula4speed wrote:
Does the partially stacked sensor improve on the number of AF calculations? I'm not sure what the relationship between readout speed and AF calculations is, or if there is one at all.
I don't really care too much about using silent shutter, but the current AI AF system with improved tracking would be pretty tempting for me. I've been considering a used A9/A9II but I'm probably going to wait a bit and see if the A7V shows up this fall.
The partially stacked Z6iii sensor will be no faster AF wise than the Z8/Z9, which can still fall short of the A1 in certain cases.
You'd need to compare it to the A7iv AF if anything. The totally unstacked ZF has great AF so I'd expect the Z6iii to be slightly better than that and not quite as good as the flagships.
p.4 #12 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
jhapeman wrote:
the "unlimited" buffer is more a function of a slower fps and lower megapixel count. The camera just can't outstrip that buffer as the files are too small and the fps too low.
wrong wrong wrong. it's a function of the CFE-B cards + Expeed 7 pipelines + HE* file compression working in tandem. even the Z8/Z9 have unlimited buffer with 45mp raw files.
watching you implode on yourself over this cam has been a personal treat this week, keep going!
Jun 20, 2024 at 12:15 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #13 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
jhapeman wrote:
The EVF is not blackout free and the "unlimited" buffer is more a function of a slower fps and lower megapixel count. The camera just can't outstrip that buffer as the files are too small and the fps too low.
The improved EVF is something every new camera has these days; comparing that to the 3+ year old A7IV is a bit of an apples and oranges comparisons. Even DPReview's preview states that the Z6III took Nikon's offering from "the back of the pack" in its class. Time moves on, specs change.
I would expect any updated Sony A7V to have all of those bases covered pretty easily. Given that they've ported it to every other body, it should also have the AI focusing system which is much more flexible and configurable than the Nikon offering, which doesn't even have a dedicated "Bird" mode on the Z6III. The only open question really whether Sony will have an updated sensor that increases the readout speed for that reduced rolling shutter and faster fps. ...Show more →
You are missing that the increased sensor scan speed also dramatically improves the EVF and tracking AF. You simply have a lot better feed to the EVF with a faster sensor scan speed and a lot more calculations per second with that increased sensor scan speed as well. The partially stacked sensor is a good advance and we should hold Sony to putting that advance in the A7V and they can of course do it because they make the sensor for Z6 III.
p.4 #14 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
RoamingScott wrote:
wrong wrong wrong. it's a function of the CFE-B cards + Expeed 7 pipelines + HE* file compression working in tandem. even the Z8/Z9 have unlimited buffer with 45mp raw files.
watching you implode on yourself over this cam has been a personal treat this week, keep going!
Sure....you sure do delight in trolling the Sony boards. Funny I never see Sony people trolling there. All I see here is you fanboying over an unreleased camera that is basically Nikon once again playing catch up. Great for them. Perennially being behind until the last 18 months or so has not helped the overall market much.
Your explanation does nothing to dispel what I said. Small files. Fast card. Decent buffer size and low frame means unlimited buffer. There's no magic sauce there just basic limits every camera deals with.
p.4 #15 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
jhapeman wrote:
Sure....you sure do delight in trolling the Sony boards. Funny I never see Sony people trolling there. All I see here is you fanboying over an unreleased camera that is basically Nikon once again playing catch up. Great for them. Perennially being behind until the last 18 months or so has not helped the overall market much.
Your explanation does nothing to dispel what I said. Small files. Fast card. Decent buffer size and low frame means unlimited buffer. There's no magic sauce there just basic limits every camera deals with.
It's an endless Nikon troll battle. It never ends even when they clearly are not caught up to Sony in development. It's always an immediate ignore for me. Not worth your time
p.4 #16 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
Steve Spencer wrote:
You are missing that the increased sensor scan speed also dramatically improves the EVF and tracking AF. You simply have a lot better feed to the EVF with a faster sensor scan speed and a lot more calculations per second with that increased sensor scan speed as well. The partially stacked sensor is a good advance and we should hold Sony to putting that advance in the A7V and they can of course do it because they make the sensor for Z6 III.
How am I missing this? I've said the one real new advantage Nikon brings is a faster sensor read out speed. There's no "missing" there. As for the improved AF I don't see that being attributed to the sensor readout--they simply say they're using the 3D AF system as in their higher end cameras, enabled by them using the same Expeed 7 processor. The fact that they don't claim the sensor readout contributes to this implies it doesn't or they'd be happy to take credit.
We can beat Sony up when they release their new A7V if it falls short. In the meantime, I still stand by the fact that the Z6III is certainly nice, but the comments comparing a just released camera to a 3-year old one we know is due to replaced are a bit over the top.
p.4 #17 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
Not sure we can say sensor readout makes the AF faster. That does not wash with the A7RV which has a slow sensor but an amazing AF setup. Im not real interested in a A7V myself unless it has magic dust in it like a global shutter.
Jun 20, 2024 at 12:56 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #18 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
jhapeman wrote:
How am I missing this? I've said the one real new advantage Nikon brings is a faster sensor read out speed. There's no "missing" there. As for the improved AF I don't see that being attributed to the sensor readout--they simply say they're using the 3D AF system as in their higher end cameras, enabled by them using the same Expeed 7 processor. The fact that they don't claim the sensor readout contributes to this implies it doesn't or they'd be happy to take credit.
We can beat Sony up when they release their new A7V if it falls short. In the meantime, I still stand by the fact that the Z6III is certainly nice, but the comments comparing a just released camera to a 3-year old one we know is due to replaced are a bit over the top. ...Show more →
What you are missing and missed again in this post is that the faster sensor scan speed provides more data faster to the EVF making the EVF experience better and that it also allows more calculations per second which makes the tracking AF better.
For AF acquisition those calculations per second are a lot less important, but for tracking over time they are super important. You are missing that.
If you follow my comments all I have said is that the Z6 III and it much faster sensor scan speed, should make us demand more from Sony for the A7 V. I think we will see a partially stacked sensor in that camera too and that will be a good thing, but we should make sure Sony hears that we want that.
p.4 #19 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
Steve Spencer wrote:
What you are missing and missed again in this post is that the faster sensor scan speed provides more data faster to the EVF making the EVF experience better and that it also allows more calculations per second which makes the tracking AF better.
For AF acquisition those calculations per second are a lot less important, but for tracking over time they are super important. You are missing that.
If you follow my comments all I have said is that the Z6 III and it much faster sensor scan speed, should make us demand more from Sony for the A7 V. I think we will see a partially stacked sensor in that camera too and that will be a good thing, but we should make sure Sony hears that we want that....Show more →
Except there is ZERO proof of your claim on the AF, and not even Nikon claims that, so no, I'm not "missing that." Also literally just said the faster readout has some benefits, like EVF refresh rate. Are you reading what I wrote?
Jun 20, 2024 at 01:01 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #20 · Speculation on stacked BSI sensor at $4K - based on competition from Nikon/Canon
GMPhotography wrote:
Not sure we can say sensor readout makes the AF faster. That does not wash with the A7RV which has a slow sensor but an amazing AF setup. Im not real interested in a A7V myself unless it has magic dust in it like a global shutter.
Guy, sensor scan speed doesn't help focus acquisition much but it does dramatically improve AF if you are tracking over time. It is just a lot easier for the AF to keep up with the target if it can do a lot more calculations per second and sensor scan speed allows that.
