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Archive 2023Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
p.12 #1Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
Juha Kannisto wrote:
I got some more samples today with my CV 28/1.5 on my Sony A7CII mostly at Shinjuku Gyoen National Garden's Greenhouse and a few outside on the way back to Shinjuku station. It was raining most of the time so I decided that it might be nice to shoot some flower & plant close-ups at the Greenhouse. After getting out from the Greenhouse the rain had stopped and there was some nice light with sun showing up through the clouds for a bit but the Garden was already about to close then.
I used my CV VM-E close focus...Show more →
Thanks for posting!
Any outdoor shots wide open yet?
Is is just me or do the corners look pretty good even on the Sony?
I got some more samples today with my CV 28/1.5 on my Sony A7CII mostly at Shinjuku Gyoen National Garden's Greenhouse and a few outside on the way back to Shinjuku station. It was raining most of the time so I decided that it might be nice to shoot some flower & plant close-ups at the Greenhouse. After getting out from the Greenhouse the rain had stopped and there was some nice light with sun showing up through the clouds for a bit but the Garden was already about to close then.
I used my CV VM-E close focus...Show more →
Thanks for posting!
Any outdoor shots wide open yet?
Is is just me or do the corners look pretty good even on the Sony?
Jan 21, 2024 at 05:17 PM
p.12 #2Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
Alright if I get this lens I should sell the cv 28 f2 v2.
And maybe a few of my other 28s….
And maybe a few of my other 28s….
Jan 21, 2024 at 09:52 PM
p.12 #3Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
littleego wrote:
I used my CV VM-E close focus adapter II and utilized the helicoid to get closer than 0.5m on many of the shots. Almost all plant shots were taken wide-open, just one yellow flower outside was at f2 as I went for closest possible focus with the help from the helicoid adapter on that one and things get fairly soft there at f1.5. Most outside infinity shots were at f8.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pMsQVya4JRQb74s16
I ran these through C1 Pro again and utilized some filmic presets that I think work well on plants this time.
I'm really happy with the lens after 3 shootouts with it so far
Thanks for posting!
Any outdoor shots wide open yet?
Is is just me or do the corners look pretty good even on the Sony?
I have these 3 Albums (see below) of sample shots on my Sony A7CII so far. The 2nd Album had everything shot wide open outdoors but they were not landscape type shots at infinity, mostly mid-distance and closer. For infinity type shots I think it needs to be stopped down to f5.6 - f8 for best results on Sony (as also mentioned by Fred). I wouldn't use wide open aperture for those type of shots even with native lenses, usually at least f4. For other types of shots I think it works fine on Sony at all apertures but I haven't used the mid-apertures between f1.5 and f8 much yet. Anyway, it's been pretty good wide open on Sony for the types of shots I've taken so far. Overall I think it works pretty well on Sony but I would always welcome a native E-mount version with full optimization for Sony sensors on E-mount cameras as best option.
Friday lunch break shoot at Shirokanedai, all shots at f1.5 or f8:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/NY2Fdwyjmft8VRty8
Saturday low light rainy/cloudy day shoot at Nakano (narrow old style eatery/bar streets), all shots at f1.5:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Jy1BnGRSXVowkh58
Sunday shoot at Shinjuku Gyoen National Garden (mainly Greenhouse) and a few more outside, mostly at f1.5 and f8.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pMsQVya4JRQb74s16
Edited on Jan 21, 2024 at 10:39 PM · View previous versions
Juha Kannisto wrote
I got some more samples today with my CV 28/1.5 on my Sony A7CII mostly at Shinjuku Gyoen National Garden's Greenhouse and a few outside on the way back to Shinjuku station. It was raining most of the time so I decided that it might be nice to shoot some flower & plant close-ups at the Greenhouse. After getting out from the Greenhouse the rain had stopped and there was some nice light with sun showing up through the clouds for a bit but the Garden was already about to close then.I used my CV VM-E close focus adapter II and utilized the helicoid to get closer than 0.5m on many of the shots. Almost all plant shots were taken wide-open, just one yellow flower outside was at f2 as I went for closest possible focus with the help from the helicoid adapter on that one and things get fairly soft there at f1.5. Most outside infinity shots were at f8.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pMsQVya4JRQb74s16
I ran these through C1 Pro again and utilized some filmic presets that I think work well on plants this time.
I'm really happy with the lens after 3 shootouts with it so far
Any outdoor shots wide open yet?
Is is just me or do the corners look pretty good even on the Sony?
I have these 3 Albums (see below) of sample shots on my Sony A7CII so far. The 2nd Album had everything shot wide open outdoors but they were not landscape type shots at infinity, mostly mid-distance and closer. For infinity type shots I think it needs to be stopped down to f5.6 - f8 for best results on Sony (as also mentioned by Fred). I wouldn't use wide open aperture for those type of shots even with native lenses, usually at least f4. For other types of shots I think it works fine on Sony at all apertures but I haven't used the mid-apertures between f1.5 and f8 much yet. Anyway, it's been pretty good wide open on Sony for the types of shots I've taken so far. Overall I think it works pretty well on Sony but I would always welcome a native E-mount version with full optimization for Sony sensors on E-mount cameras as best option.
Friday lunch break shoot at Shirokanedai, all shots at f1.5 or f8:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/NY2Fdwyjmft8VRty8
Saturday low light rainy/cloudy day shoot at Nakano (narrow old style eatery/bar streets), all shots at f1.5:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Jy1BnGRSXVowkh58
Sunday shoot at Shinjuku Gyoen National Garden (mainly Greenhouse) and a few more outside, mostly at f1.5 and f8.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pMsQVya4JRQb74s16
Edited on Jan 21, 2024 at 10:39 PM · View previous versions
Jan 21, 2024 at 10:29 PM
p.12 #4Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
Keith Wee (Singapore based photographer) has published a review with some samples:
https://keithwee.com/2024/01/21/voigtlander-nokton-vintage-28mm-f1-5-asph-review-the-excellent-fast-wide-lens/
It's not a very technical detailed review but interesting to read in any case.
His review includes one sample shot with some ring flares which I think must have been caused by the shiny front ring on the lens (he seems to have used it without any hood).
https://keithwee.com/2024/01/21/voigtlander-nokton-vintage-28mm-f1-5-asph-review-the-excellent-fast-wide-lens/
It's not a very technical detailed review but interesting to read in any case.
His review includes one sample shot with some ring flares which I think must have been caused by the shiny front ring on the lens (he seems to have used it without any hood).
Jan 21, 2024 at 10:31 PM
p.12 #5Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
Juha Kannisto wrote:
Keith Wee (Singapore based photographer) has published a review with some samples:
https://keithwee.com/2024/01/21/voigtlander-nokton-vintage-28mm-f1-5-asph-review-the-excellent-fast-wide-lens/
It's not a very technical detailed review but interesting to read in any case.
His review includes one sample shot with some ring flares which I think must have been caused by the shiny front ring on the lens (he seems to have used it without any hood).
Thanks for sharing, Juha! I appreciate the samples in the review. I particularly enjoy the rendering from this lens. It has a modern and contrasty look, yet it also exhibits a unique character. Funny, that's how I would describe the Leica 28/1.4 Lux!
Keith Wee (Singapore based photographer) has published a review with some samples:
https://keithwee.com/2024/01/21/voigtlander-nokton-vintage-28mm-f1-5-asph-review-the-excellent-fast-wide-lens/
It's not a very technical detailed review but interesting to read in any case.
His review includes one sample shot with some ring flares which I think must have been caused by the shiny front ring on the lens (he seems to have used it without any hood).
Thanks for sharing, Juha! I appreciate the samples in the review. I particularly enjoy the rendering from this lens. It has a modern and contrasty look, yet it also exhibits a unique character. Funny, that's how I would describe the Leica 28/1.4 Lux!
Jan 21, 2024 at 10:42 PM
p.12 #6Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
Juha Kannisto wrote:
I used my CV VM-E close focus adapter II and utilized the helicoid to get closer than 0.5m on many of the shots. Almost all plant shots were taken wide-open, just one yellow flower outside was at f2 as I went for closest possible focus with the help from the helicoid adapter on that one and things get fairly soft there at f1.5. Most outside infinity shots were at f8.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pMsQVya4JRQb74s16
I ran these through C1 Pro again and utilized some filmic presets that I think work well on plants this time.
I'm really happy with the lens after 3 shootouts with it so farThanks for posting!
Any outdoor shots wide open yet?
Is is just me or do the corners look pretty good even on the Sony?I have these 3 Albums (see below) of sample shots on my Sony A7CII so far. The 2nd Album had everything shot wide open outdoors but they were not landscape type shots at infinity, mostly mid-distance and closer. For infinity type shots I think it needs to be stopped down to f5.6 - f8 for best results on Sony (as also mentioned by Fred). I wouldn't use wide open aperture for those type of shots even with native lenses, usually at least f4. For other types of shots I think it works fine on Sony at all apertures but...Show more →
So many samples for reference, Juha! Yes, on the Sony, the lens really stands out at f/4 and smaller, reaching its optimal performance at f/8, especially in the corners. F/5.6 appears to be the sweet spot. There's some noticeable induced field curvature in the background rendering when shooting wide open, though it's not as pronounced compared to other Nokton M-lenses on the Sony.
Do you think Cosina might develop a 28/1.5 E-mount? The last E-mount produced was the CV 35/2 APO back in 2021, so it's not very likely, but I hope they consider it.
littleego wrote
Juha Kannisto wrote
I got some more samples today with my CV 28/1.5 on my Sony A7CII mostly at Shinjuku Gyoen National Garden's Greenhouse and a few outside on the way back to Shinjuku station. It was raining most of the time so I decided that it might be nice to shoot some flower & plant close-ups at the Greenhouse. After getting out from the Greenhouse the rain had stopped and there was some nice light with sun showing up through the clouds for a bit but the Garden was already about to close then.I used my CV VM-E close focus adapter II and utilized the helicoid to get closer than 0.5m on many of the shots. Almost all plant shots were taken wide-open, just one yellow flower outside was at f2 as I went for closest possible focus with the help from the helicoid adapter on that one and things get fairly soft there at f1.5. Most outside infinity shots were at f8.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pMsQVya4JRQb74s16
I ran these through C1 Pro again and utilized some filmic presets that I think work well on plants this time.
I'm really happy with the lens after 3 shootouts with it so far
Any outdoor shots wide open yet?
Is is just me or do the corners look pretty good even on the Sony?
So many samples for reference, Juha! Yes, on the Sony, the lens really stands out at f/4 and smaller, reaching its optimal performance at f/8, especially in the corners. F/5.6 appears to be the sweet spot. There's some noticeable induced field curvature in the background rendering when shooting wide open, though it's not as pronounced compared to other Nokton M-lenses on the Sony.
Do you think Cosina might develop a 28/1.5 E-mount? The last E-mount produced was the CV 35/2 APO back in 2021, so it's not very likely, but I hope they consider it.
Jan 21, 2024 at 10:55 PM
p.12 #7Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
Fred Miranda wrote:
I used my CV VM-E close focus adapter II and utilized the helicoid to get closer than 0.5m on many of the shots. Almost all plant shots were taken wide-open, just one yellow flower outside was at f2 as I went for closest possible focus with the help from the helicoid adapter on that one and things get fairly soft there at f1.5. Most outside infinity shots were at f8.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pMsQVya4JRQb74s16
I ran these through C1 Pro again and utilized some filmic presets that I think work well on plants this time.
I'm really happy with the lens after 3 shootouts with it so farThanks for posting!
Any outdoor shots wide open yet?
Is is just me or do the corners look pretty good even on the Sony?I have these 3 Albums (see below) of sample shots on my Sony A7CII so far. The 2nd Album had everything shot wide open outdoors but they were not landscape type shots at infinity, mostly mid-distance and closer. For infinity type shots I think it needs to be stopped down to f5.6 - f8 for best results on Sony (as also mentioned by Fred). I wouldn't use wide open aperture for those type of shots even with native lenses, usually at least f4. For other types of shots I think it works fine on Sony at all apertures but I haven't used the mid-apertures between f1.5 and f8 much yet. Anyway, it's been pretty good wide open on Sony for the types of shots I've taken so far. Overall I think it works pretty well on Sony but I would always welcome a native E-mount version with full optimization for Sony sensors on E-mount cameras as best option.
Friday lunch break shoot at Shirokanedai, all shots at f1.5 or f8:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/NY2Fdwyjmft8VRty8
Saturday low light rainy/cloudy day shoot at Nakano (narrow old style eatery/bar streets), all shots at f1.5:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Jy1BnGRSXVowkh58
Sunday shoot at Shinjuku Gyoen National Garden (mainly Greenhouse) and a few more outside, mostly at f1.5 and f8.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pMsQVya4JRQb74s16So many samples for reference, Juha! Yes, on the Sony, the lens really stands out at f/4 and smaller, reaching its optimal performance at f/8, especially in the corners. F/5.6 appears to be the sweet spot. There's some noticeable induced field curvature in the background rendering when shooting wide open, though it's not as pronounced compared to other Nokton M-lenses on the Sony.
Do you think Cosina might develop a 28/1.5 E-mount? The last E-mount produced was the CV 35/2 APO back in 2021, so it's not very likely, but I hope they consider it.
Thanks Fred!
3 different Cosina staff members told me that they have something in the plans for E-mount in last year's CP+ (11 months ago) although it wasn't near-term enough for them to announce anything at that time. So I still think that something would still be coming in E. They seem to have been strongly prioritizing the newer emerging mirrorless mounts in the last few years where there is less competition from other 3rd parties but I think after they have released all their most popular lenses in each mount it would make sense to make same new lenses in all FF mounts etc. I personally think a mirrorless version of this 28/1.5 in Sony E, Nikon Z and Canon RF could be a nice fit in all of those mounts and would be a perfect new upcoming release announcement in this year's CP+ starting on 2/22...
They already have kind of slowed down with Z (last new release was in February 2023 and nothing new announced since then) and now they seem to have much more to work on only in RF mount since they only have 2 lenses there so far.
Also their Fuji X lineup already has pretty nice coverage from 28mm to 75mm FF equivalents after the 18/2.8 gets released and they might not put in as much effort for covering the widest and longest end of the range since they always prioritize the bestselling FLs.
Juha Kannisto wrote
littleego wrote
Juha Kannisto wrote
I got some more samples today with my CV 28/1.5 on my Sony A7CII mostly at Shinjuku Gyoen National Garden's Greenhouse and a few outside on the way back to Shinjuku station. It was raining most of the time so I decided that it might be nice to shoot some flower & plant close-ups at the Greenhouse. After getting out from the Greenhouse the rain had stopped and there was some nice light with sun showing up through the clouds for a bit but the Garden was already about to close then.I used my CV VM-E close focus adapter II and utilized the helicoid to get closer than 0.5m on many of the shots. Almost all plant shots were taken wide-open, just one yellow flower outside was at f2 as I went for closest possible focus with the help from the helicoid adapter on that one and things get fairly soft there at f1.5. Most outside infinity shots were at f8.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pMsQVya4JRQb74s16
I ran these through C1 Pro again and utilized some filmic presets that I think work well on plants this time.
I'm really happy with the lens after 3 shootouts with it so far
Any outdoor shots wide open yet?
Is is just me or do the corners look pretty good even on the Sony?
Friday lunch break shoot at Shirokanedai, all shots at f1.5 or f8:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/NY2Fdwyjmft8VRty8
Saturday low light rainy/cloudy day shoot at Nakano (narrow old style eatery/bar streets), all shots at f1.5:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Jy1BnGRSXVowkh58
Sunday shoot at Shinjuku Gyoen National Garden (mainly Greenhouse) and a few more outside, mostly at f1.5 and f8.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pMsQVya4JRQb74s16
Do you think Cosina might develop a 28/1.5 E-mount? The last E-mount produced was the CV 35/2 APO back in 2021, so it's not very likely, but I hope they consider it.
Thanks Fred!
3 different Cosina staff members told me that they have something in the plans for E-mount in last year's CP+ (11 months ago) although it wasn't near-term enough for them to announce anything at that time. So I still think that something would still be coming in E. They seem to have been strongly prioritizing the newer emerging mirrorless mounts in the last few years where there is less competition from other 3rd parties but I think after they have released all their most popular lenses in each mount it would make sense to make same new lenses in all FF mounts etc. I personally think a mirrorless version of this 28/1.5 in Sony E, Nikon Z and Canon RF could be a nice fit in all of those mounts and would be a perfect new upcoming release announcement in this year's CP+ starting on 2/22...
They already have kind of slowed down with Z (last new release was in February 2023 and nothing new announced since then) and now they seem to have much more to work on only in RF mount since they only have 2 lenses there so far.
Also their Fuji X lineup already has pretty nice coverage from 28mm to 75mm FF equivalents after the 18/2.8 gets released and they might not put in as much effort for covering the widest and longest end of the range since they always prioritize the bestselling FLs.
Jan 21, 2024 at 11:13 PM
p.12 #8Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
They probably feel they need to bring the Canon and Nikon ranges up to parity with Sony, after securing their respective contract agreements. This on the Nikon page:
'*This product is developed and manufactured under a license agreement with Nikon Corporation.'
They don't mention the licensing on the Sony or Canon pages, but they do say this:
'The optical design is optimized for the image sensors of mirrorless cameras with the Canon RF mount.'
and
'..utilize optical formulas optimized for Sony E-mount sensors.'
So they are fully aware the 'optimising' is important. They do it for all of them individually. They have been as productive as Zeiss for Sony users these past two years. ;-) I'm open to using some VMs but it helps that resale is high for the Leica users. At lest they are moving in that direction of more mount optimisation. They make lenses at such a pace anything is possible in a 1-2 year time frame.
'*This product is developed and manufactured under a license agreement with Nikon Corporation.'
They don't mention the licensing on the Sony or Canon pages, but they do say this:
'The optical design is optimized for the image sensors of mirrorless cameras with the Canon RF mount.'
and
'..utilize optical formulas optimized for Sony E-mount sensors.'
So they are fully aware the 'optimising' is important. They do it for all of them individually. They have been as productive as Zeiss for Sony users these past two years. ;-) I'm open to using some VMs but it helps that resale is high for the Leica users. At lest they are moving in that direction of more mount optimisation. They make lenses at such a pace anything is possible in a 1-2 year time frame.
Jan 22, 2024 at 12:38 AM
p.12 #9Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
philip_pj wrote:
They probably feel they need to bring the Canon and Nikon ranges up to parity with Sony, after securing their respective contract agreements. This on the Nikon page:
'*This product is developed and manufactured under a license agreement with Nikon Corporation.'
They don't mention the licensing on the Sony or Canon pages, but they do say this:
'The optical design is optimized for the image sensors of mirrorless cameras with the Canon RF mount.'
and
'..utilize optical formulas optimized for Sony E-mount sensors.'
So they are fully aware the 'optimising' is important. They do it for all of them individually. They have been as...Show more →
Yes, I agree that they definitely know the importance of optimizing for each sensor stack. If/when they come up with a new release for all 3 FF mirrorless mounts at the same time, I'd expect them to optimize for each sensor stack as well as do the differentiation in body styling that they have had for each system. For Nikon Z the 40/1.2 seems to have been by far the most popular lens in their lineup after Nikon Zf got released and it would pair very nicely with Z-mount version of Nokton 28/1.5. Also with Canon they just released 40/1.2 on 1/19 and 28/1.5 would pair great with that and would be a very nice extension of their current RF line, and with Sony E they have the pretty wide gap from 21mm to 35mm in the E-mount lineup where 28/1.5 would fit perfectly.
Also at CP+ Cosina usually try to bring out several new lenses as "development announcements" trying to cater to multiple mounts and they bring out prototypes so that their customers can enjoy trialing prototypes of those with their cameras. It's always more pleasant if there is something for everyone as otherwise they have to listen to complaints from those whose cameras haven't been getting anything new for a long while (I did my share of complaining / talking to many of their staff in last year's CP+ and I didn't yet have a Fuji X camera at that time, otherwise I would have been happy to try out the prototypes of the new X-mount lenses there).
I'm really looking forward to see what they come up with at this year's CP+. It opens on 2/22 and lasts through 2/25. I plan to go there on Friday 2/23 which is a national holiday in Japan. Anyway, new announcements (including development announcements) would be expected to come out in the morning of 2/22 (last year they got leaked a bit before CP+ though).
They probably feel they need to bring the Canon and Nikon ranges up to parity with Sony, after securing their respective contract agreements. This on the Nikon page:
'*This product is developed and manufactured under a license agreement with Nikon Corporation.'
They don't mention the licensing on the Sony or Canon pages, but they do say this:
'The optical design is optimized for the image sensors of mirrorless cameras with the Canon RF mount.'
and
'..utilize optical formulas optimized for Sony E-mount sensors.'
So they are fully aware the 'optimising' is important. They do it for all of them individually. They have been as...Show more →
Yes, I agree that they definitely know the importance of optimizing for each sensor stack. If/when they come up with a new release for all 3 FF mirrorless mounts at the same time, I'd expect them to optimize for each sensor stack as well as do the differentiation in body styling that they have had for each system. For Nikon Z the 40/1.2 seems to have been by far the most popular lens in their lineup after Nikon Zf got released and it would pair very nicely with Z-mount version of Nokton 28/1.5. Also with Canon they just released 40/1.2 on 1/19 and 28/1.5 would pair great with that and would be a very nice extension of their current RF line, and with Sony E they have the pretty wide gap from 21mm to 35mm in the E-mount lineup where 28/1.5 would fit perfectly.
Also at CP+ Cosina usually try to bring out several new lenses as "development announcements" trying to cater to multiple mounts and they bring out prototypes so that their customers can enjoy trialing prototypes of those with their cameras. It's always more pleasant if there is something for everyone as otherwise they have to listen to complaints from those whose cameras haven't been getting anything new for a long while (I did my share of complaining / talking to many of their staff in last year's CP+ and I didn't yet have a Fuji X camera at that time, otherwise I would have been happy to try out the prototypes of the new X-mount lenses there).
I'm really looking forward to see what they come up with at this year's CP+. It opens on 2/22 and lasts through 2/25. I plan to go there on Friday 2/23 which is a national holiday in Japan. Anyway, new announcements (including development announcements) would be expected to come out in the morning of 2/22 (last year they got leaked a bit before CP+ though).
Jan 22, 2024 at 01:09 AM
p.12 #10Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
philip_pj wrote:
So they are fully aware the 'optimising' is important. They do it for all of them individually.
And, the wider you go ... the tougher it gets (i.e. angles of incidence).
Not only for the thickness of the sensor stack, but also the shape of the micro-lenses ... since the M's use both a different sensor stack thickness and different shape microlenses.
https://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2021/12/do-leica-cmos-sensors-have-any.html
So they are fully aware the 'optimising' is important. They do it for all of them individually.
And, the wider you go ... the tougher it gets (i.e. angles of incidence).
Not only for the thickness of the sensor stack, but also the shape of the micro-lenses ... since the M's use both a different sensor stack thickness and different shape microlenses.
https://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2021/12/do-leica-cmos-sensors-have-any.html
Jan 22, 2024 at 06:49 AM
p.12 #11Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
RustyBug wrote:
And, the wider you go ... the tougher it gets (i.e. angles of incidence).
Not only for the thickness of the sensor stack, but also the shape of the micro-lenses ... since the M's use both a different sensor stack thickness and different shape microlenses.
https://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2021/12/do-leica-cmos-sensors-have-any.html
Since the M11 Leica there is no difference regarding micro lenses anymore.
The M10(P) has the theoretically "best" micro lenses, but sadly only for one edge of the frame due to their application process,
which ultimately lead to the ugly italian flag color cast and uneven vignetting figures.
philip_pj wrote
So they are fully aware the 'optimising' is important. They do it for all of them individually.Not only for the thickness of the sensor stack, but also the shape of the micro-lenses ... since the M's use both a different sensor stack thickness and different shape microlenses.
https://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2021/12/do-leica-cmos-sensors-have-any.html
Since the M11 Leica there is no difference regarding micro lenses anymore.
The M10(P) has the theoretically "best" micro lenses, but sadly only for one edge of the frame due to their application process,
which ultimately lead to the ugly italian flag color cast and uneven vignetting figures.
Jan 22, 2024 at 07:19 AM
p.12 #12Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
BastianK wrote:
Since the M11 Leica there is no difference regarding micro lenses anymore.
I missed that ... got a source / link, thanks.
Since the M11 Leica there is no difference regarding micro lenses anymore.
I missed that ... got a source / link, thanks.
Jan 22, 2024 at 07:52 AM
p.12 #13Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
RustyBug wrote:
I missed that ... got a source / link, thanks.
Source is: I tried all those cameras (M10r as well) and compared the results.
The M11 has the same exact vignetting and color cast characteristics as a Sony camera with BSI sensor and thin filter stack.
Read: only slightly greenish corners with acute angles but way more vignetting than an M10.
Regarding the application of the micro lenses and how that leads to that italian flag vignetting I did find an article on that, need to see if I can find it again.
BastianK wrote
Since the M11 Leica there is no difference regarding micro lenses anymore.Source is: I tried all those cameras (M10r as well) and compared the results.
The M11 has the same exact vignetting and color cast characteristics as a Sony camera with BSI sensor and thin filter stack.
Read: only slightly greenish corners with acute angles but way more vignetting than an M10.
Regarding the application of the micro lenses and how that leads to that italian flag vignetting I did find an article on that, need to see if I can find it again.
Jan 22, 2024 at 07:59 AM
p.12 #14Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
BastianK wrote:
I missed that ... got a source / link, thanks.Source is: I tried all those cameras (M10r as well) and compared the results.
The M11 has the same exact vignetting and color cast characteristics as a Sony camera with BSI sensor and thin filter stack.
Read: only slightly greenish corners with acute angles but way more vignetting than an M10.
Regarding the application of the micro lenses and how that leads to that italian flag vignetting I did find an article on that, need to see if I can find it again.
Gotcha, thanks.
Color shifts vs. vignetting vs. distortion vs CA ... those are my main nemesis. I find that it is almost always a matter of "choose your poison(s)", particularly as you go wider, they become more difficult to manage, in exchange for resolution / acuity / contrast, etc.
So, your point about the trade for "way more" vignetting, is appreciated.
As to the Italian flag, there was an interesting thread from several years back (2011), but I've not followed much more on it, so I'm sure there is more recent info / insight available.
https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/153464-towards-an-explanation-of-the-italian-flag-phenomenon/#comments
Any chance you've compared the M11M to the M10M in this same manner.
I don't mean to hijack, this thread ... but, the point of "optimized" for an optical path, does include all elements of the optical path. Which begs the question ... IF, the microlenses have been changed in the M11, does that mean that all the lenses that were previously "optimized" for the M optical path before the M11 ... are now "unoptimized" for the revised optical path of the M11? Way more vignetting doesn't exactly strike me as optimized, rather it might be considered a quid pro quo, of sorts.
Hmmm.
Would be curious to learn more (new thread) about your assessment that the M11 uses different microlenses from its predecessor ... and all the implications / differences that renders, etc.
RustyBug wrote
BastianK wrote
Since the M11 Leica there is no difference regarding micro lenses anymore.The M11 has the same exact vignetting and color cast characteristics as a Sony camera with BSI sensor and thin filter stack.
Read: only slightly greenish corners with acute angles but way more vignetting than an M10.
Regarding the application of the micro lenses and how that leads to that italian flag vignetting I did find an article on that, need to see if I can find it again.
Gotcha, thanks.
Color shifts vs. vignetting vs. distortion vs CA ... those are my main nemesis. I find that it is almost always a matter of "choose your poison(s)", particularly as you go wider, they become more difficult to manage, in exchange for resolution / acuity / contrast, etc.
So, your point about the trade for "way more" vignetting, is appreciated.
As to the Italian flag, there was an interesting thread from several years back (2011), but I've not followed much more on it, so I'm sure there is more recent info / insight available.
https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/153464-towards-an-explanation-of-the-italian-flag-phenomenon/#comments
Any chance you've compared the M11M to the M10M in this same manner.
I don't mean to hijack, this thread ... but, the point of "optimized" for an optical path, does include all elements of the optical path. Which begs the question ... IF, the microlenses have been changed in the M11, does that mean that all the lenses that were previously "optimized" for the M optical path before the M11 ... are now "unoptimized" for the revised optical path of the M11? Way more vignetting doesn't exactly strike me as optimized, rather it might be considered a quid pro quo, of sorts.
Hmmm.
Would be curious to learn more (new thread) about your assessment that the M11 uses different microlenses from its predecessor ... and all the implications / differences that renders, etc.
Jan 22, 2024 at 09:10 AM
p.12 #15Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
BastianK wrote:
I missed that ... got a source / link, thanks.Source is: I tried all those cameras (M10r as well) and compared the results.
The M11 has the same exact vignetting and color cast characteristics as a Sony camera with BSI sensor and thin filter stack.
Read: only slightly greenish corners with acute angles but way more vignetting than an M10.
Regarding the application of the micro lenses and how that leads to that italian flag vignetting I did find an article on that, need to see if I can find it again.
When I got my M11 right after it came out, I tested it against the M10-R using all my Summilux lenses. The result was what you mentioned – the M11 had more vignetting, even though Leica said its sensor would handle vignetting better. I'm not sure if they later fixed this with a firmware update to make the vignetting characteristics more similar. My tests were with internal vignetting correction set to 'off'.
RustyBug wrote
BastianK wrote
Since the M11 Leica there is no difference regarding micro lenses anymore.The M11 has the same exact vignetting and color cast characteristics as a Sony camera with BSI sensor and thin filter stack.
Read: only slightly greenish corners with acute angles but way more vignetting than an M10.
Regarding the application of the micro lenses and how that leads to that italian flag vignetting I did find an article on that, need to see if I can find it again.
When I got my M11 right after it came out, I tested it against the M10-R using all my Summilux lenses. The result was what you mentioned – the M11 had more vignetting, even though Leica said its sensor would handle vignetting better. I'm not sure if they later fixed this with a firmware update to make the vignetting characteristics more similar. My tests were with internal vignetting correction set to 'off'.
Jan 22, 2024 at 09:18 AM
p.12 #16Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
Fred Miranda wrote:
I missed that ... got a source / link, thanks.Source is: I tried all those cameras (M10r as well) and compared the results.
The M11 has the same exact vignetting and color cast characteristics as a Sony camera with BSI sensor and thin filter stack.
Read: only slightly greenish corners with acute angles but way more vignetting than an M10.
Regarding the application of the micro lenses and how that leads to that italian flag vignetting I did find an article on that, need to see if I can find it again.When I got my M11 right after it came out, I tested it against the M10-R using all my Summilux lenses. The result was what you mentioned – the M11 had more vignetting, even though Leica said its sensor would handle vignetting better. I'm not sure if they later fixed this with a firmware update to make the vignetting characteristics more similar. My tests were with internal vignetting correction set to 'off'.
Hmmm, "sensor" ... does that mean, the optical path of delivery for the light, or does that mean the electronics / adjustments that come after receiving the light that is going to "handle vignetting better"?
BastianK wrote
RustyBug wrote
BastianK wrote
Since the M11 Leica there is no difference regarding micro lenses anymore.The M11 has the same exact vignetting and color cast characteristics as a Sony camera with BSI sensor and thin filter stack.
Read: only slightly greenish corners with acute angles but way more vignetting than an M10.
Regarding the application of the micro lenses and how that leads to that italian flag vignetting I did find an article on that, need to see if I can find it again.
Hmmm, "sensor" ... does that mean, the optical path of delivery for the light, or does that mean the electronics / adjustments that come after receiving the light that is going to "handle vignetting better"?
Jan 22, 2024 at 09:22 AM
p.12 #17Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
RustyBug wrote:
I don't mean to hijack, this thread ... but, the point of "optimized" for an optical path, does include all elements of the optical path. Which begs the question ... IF, the microlenses have been changed in the M11, does that mean that all the lenses that were previously "optimized" for the M optical path before the M11 ... are now "unoptimized" for the revised optical path of the M11? Way more vignetting doesn't exactly strike me as optimized, rather it might be considered a quid pro quo, of sorts.
Back in 2011 (referring to the link you posted) the rangefinder lens optical landscape was considerably different than it is now. Many more lenses back then would have been pre-digital designs whereas now my understanding is there is a greater emphasis in a given lens's optical design to address the necessities of digital capture vs. analog. For example if you dig up one of the Lens Rentals blog posts about exit pupil distance, the lenses that perform better on challenging sensors are those with longer exit pupil distances. With such a design, even with an UWA, light rays are not projected on the sensor at as steep an angle as they would have been in more symmetrical pre-digital designs.
It could be that with the M11 Leica is leveraging the better ability of BSI to handle steeper incident angles, coupled with 'standard' microlenses that are good enough (and one imagines less expensive than a customized design) and current sensors' abilities to dig deeper into underexposure (to fix color and vignetting shifts in software) while delivering acceptable image quality. Along with this it's possible Leica expects the majority of M11 purchasers will either be buying current production lenses that are likely better digital-optimized, or already have these in their collections.
As an M240 owner though, I'm a bit concerned about the VM 28/1.5 in respect to edge color shift. I don't recall this being a problem discussed about the VM 28/2, yet when I finally got one to try last year, it had cyan/green shift into the corners. It's probable that the M10 generation's sensors are better optimized for this than the M240s (which supposedly has relatively shallow pixel wells and custom microlens design) and it could be that more recent lenses have been optimized for these sensors, meaning possibly sub-optimized for older ones like M240, M9 generations.
Regarding Cosina and future E mount releases - all we know is that we don't know what Cosina will do (they seem to be more unpredictable than other companies).
That said, I agree the 28/1.5 would seem to be an extremely logical design to also release for the mainstream mirrorless systems. A fast, small, high-performance lens such as what this one appears to be, would seem to make sense, and fill a pretty notable gap in all of these systems.
I don't mean to hijack, this thread ... but, the point of "optimized" for an optical path, does include all elements of the optical path. Which begs the question ... IF, the microlenses have been changed in the M11, does that mean that all the lenses that were previously "optimized" for the M optical path before the M11 ... are now "unoptimized" for the revised optical path of the M11? Way more vignetting doesn't exactly strike me as optimized, rather it might be considered a quid pro quo, of sorts.
Back in 2011 (referring to the link you posted) the rangefinder lens optical landscape was considerably different than it is now. Many more lenses back then would have been pre-digital designs whereas now my understanding is there is a greater emphasis in a given lens's optical design to address the necessities of digital capture vs. analog. For example if you dig up one of the Lens Rentals blog posts about exit pupil distance, the lenses that perform better on challenging sensors are those with longer exit pupil distances. With such a design, even with an UWA, light rays are not projected on the sensor at as steep an angle as they would have been in more symmetrical pre-digital designs.
It could be that with the M11 Leica is leveraging the better ability of BSI to handle steeper incident angles, coupled with 'standard' microlenses that are good enough (and one imagines less expensive than a customized design) and current sensors' abilities to dig deeper into underexposure (to fix color and vignetting shifts in software) while delivering acceptable image quality. Along with this it's possible Leica expects the majority of M11 purchasers will either be buying current production lenses that are likely better digital-optimized, or already have these in their collections.
As an M240 owner though, I'm a bit concerned about the VM 28/1.5 in respect to edge color shift. I don't recall this being a problem discussed about the VM 28/2, yet when I finally got one to try last year, it had cyan/green shift into the corners. It's probable that the M10 generation's sensors are better optimized for this than the M240s (which supposedly has relatively shallow pixel wells and custom microlens design) and it could be that more recent lenses have been optimized for these sensors, meaning possibly sub-optimized for older ones like M240, M9 generations.
Regarding Cosina and future E mount releases - all we know is that we don't know what Cosina will do (they seem to be more unpredictable than other companies).
That said, I agree the 28/1.5 would seem to be an extremely logical design to also release for the mainstream mirrorless systems. A fast, small, high-performance lens such as what this one appears to be, would seem to make sense, and fill a pretty notable gap in all of these systems.Jan 22, 2024 at 10:24 AM
p.12 #18Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
Perhaps a strange comparison, but I would love to see how this compares to the Viltrox 28mm 1.8 on Sony. I was about to pull the trigger on that lens for lack of a 28mm G/GM, but this is a really tempting alternative.
Jan 22, 2024 at 01:00 PM
p.12 #19Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
Decided to bite on this one. Can't have enough 28mm lenses, I suppose. The only CV 28 I still don't have is the color skopar, and I've certainly considered it.
Jan 22, 2024 at 02:08 PM
p.12 #20Cosina Voigtländer Nokton Vintage Line 28/1.5 VM lenses announced today
Fred Miranda wrote:
I missed that ... got a source / link, thanks.Source is: I tried all those cameras (M10r as well) and compared the results.
The M11 has the same exact vignetting and color cast characteristics as a Sony camera with BSI sensor and thin filter stack.
Read: only slightly greenish corners with acute angles but way more vignetting than an M10.
Regarding the application of the micro lenses and how that leads to that italian flag vignetting I did find an article on that, need to see if I can find it again.When I got my M11 right after it came out, I tested it against the M10-R using all my Summilux lenses. The result was what you mentioned – the M11 had more vignetting, even though Leica said its sensor would handle vignetting better. I'm not sure if they later fixed this with a firmware update to make the vignetting characteristics more similar. My tests were with internal vignetting correction set to 'off'.
I wonder if Leica used baked-into-RAW vignetting reduction on previous digital Ms, which they removed on the M11 due to its ability to handle vignetting better at the sensor level.
The M11 did seems to give better corner sharpness at infinity for me over the M10-R, particularly with the 28 and 50 Lux – but that's just anecdotal, not a conclusion made from side-by-side testing. I think that has more to do with the cover glass thinness and microlens design than it does the BSI sensor technology. I say that because when I was using the GFX system and moved from the FSI 50S/R to the BSI 100S, I noticed most of my lenses were a bit softer in the corners than they were before (when viewed at the same resolution). If I recall correctly, there were some improvements made with regard to corner sharpness for the GFX 100 II – perhaps a tweak to the microlenses.
BastianK wrote
RustyBug wrote
BastianK wrote
Since the M11 Leica there is no difference regarding micro lenses anymore.The M11 has the same exact vignetting and color cast characteristics as a Sony camera with BSI sensor and thin filter stack.
Read: only slightly greenish corners with acute angles but way more vignetting than an M10.
Regarding the application of the micro lenses and how that leads to that italian flag vignetting I did find an article on that, need to see if I can find it again.
I wonder if Leica used baked-into-RAW vignetting reduction on previous digital Ms, which they removed on the M11 due to its ability to handle vignetting better at the sensor level.
The M11 did seems to give better corner sharpness at infinity for me over the M10-R, particularly with the 28 and 50 Lux – but that's just anecdotal, not a conclusion made from side-by-side testing. I think that has more to do with the cover glass thinness and microlens design than it does the BSI sensor technology. I say that because when I was using the GFX system and moved from the FSI 50S/R to the BSI 100S, I noticed most of my lenses were a bit softer in the corners than they were before (when viewed at the same resolution). If I recall correctly, there were some improvements made with regard to corner sharpness for the GFX 100 II – perhaps a tweak to the microlenses.
Jan 22, 2024 at 03:23 PM