ilkka_nissila wrote:
The combined EVF lag (i.e how far in the past is the image shown in the EVF) + shutter lag (ie. how long it takes for the shutter to open after the shutter button is pressed) in the Z6 II is about twice the lag of typical higher-end DSLRs. It's enough to be noticeable and has a significant impact on the outcome of shots timed based on events in the viewfinder. The newer cameras such as the Z8 is OK in this respect.
I didn't find data on the newer Z6 II and D6 models.
You see the Z6 has a slower AF, slower triggering of the shutter in manual focus mode, and on top of that there is the EVF lag which is not measured on that site. Jim Kasson measured the LCD lag on the Sony A9, he said "So the LCD lag is 35 msec at the top of the display, and less than 30 msec at the bottom."
The LCD on the Z7 LCD latency from 10 ms to 40 ms in Kasson's measurements when not magnified and about 200 ms when magnified.
So if we sum together these figures for LCD screen lag and shutter delay we get from 0.06+0.01 = 0.07 s to 0.06+0.04 = 0.1 s for pre-focused for the Z6 and 0.039 s for the D5. When combined with AF the figures are from 0.205+0.01 = 0.215 to 0.245 s for Z6 and 0.132s for the D5, however, this depends on the lens and how far out of focus the shot is to begin with etc.
This analysis does not take into account what difference there is between the EVF and the back LCD as this is a technically more difficult measurement. However, this should be similar between the two displays because most of the EVF lag is from data reading and processing getting it from the sensor to the display and the display itself is fast in comparison.
Also what is not taken into account here is that the EVF/LCD delay is increased in low light as the camera magnifies and averages the data to produce a cleaner image, but with a cost in increased delay. Because of the variability in delay, learning how to time shots with the camera is difficult. Normally I separate the AF from the timing and would have AF on continuous (rather than imaging resource's single shot focusing) but the single-shot AF is relevant when reacting to something that is at the time in focus (the AF variability of course can be a considerable factor in itself).
There is also exposure variability as when the camera is pointed at the subject it starts to analyse the scene, determine the subject and adjust the exposure to favour the subject that it has identified. When taking a picture against the light e.g. a person with daylit window behind them, the Z6 II took what seemed like seconds to go through this process of identifying the subject and adjusting the exposure accordingly, while a DSLR's metering is immediate, so any subject behavior that I might have reacted to when rising the camera to my eye is long gone when the camera has finished adjusting the display. This may still be faster than a human adjusting exposure in backlight but for me when the camera changes the displayed image a lot during viewing it is a big distraction from watching the subject behavior. There is also occasional flickering of the EVF when exposed to artificial lights (it happens in my home, for example, and is worse under some lights than others).
As for human reaction time, it too varies but that's what all the experience and training is for, over many years and images shot and analysed, one leans to do one's personal thing, time for the shot that best works for the intent of the photographer. What I know from practical experience using Z6 II and DSLRs in practical situations was that I could not get my timing right with the Z6 II - the shots I remember seeing in the EVF and aiming for were substantially different from the images the camera actually recorded (for example, in portraits taken in low light or with acrobatics in daylight), while with a DSLR I am used to the timing it gives and the shots typically come out as expected. To compensate for this I had to resort to a great deal of overshooting with the Z6 II to get an adequate number of OK timed shots and led to was a great deal of frustration. However, with the Z8 I don't notice such a difference between shots compared to DSLRs and so it's a camera I can work with. I still prefer the more stable optical viewfinder (when viewing; obviously between shots it goes dark, but that's after already committing to the image so it has no impact on my process) which has no artifacts as a more pleasing experience but the Z8 has other virtues such as its silence and the Z 24-70/2.8 S has better quality than the DSLR version wide open so that's a big draw. However, usually I end up with way too many images because there is no sound to deter me from shooting more and the end result is still a disaster in terms of editing time. But the shots do come out well. I would like to see a camera with similar technology (as in the Z8/Z9) but with a 24 MP sensor from Nikon. I think the applications for high resolution are so far removed from how most images are used that I would prefer to have the option to bypass all that data without other compromises (such as lag) and benefit from a better high ISO image quality such as seen in the D6 or Z6 II....Show more →
This is a good discussion, but of course you’re comparing shutter lag on a mid range consumer camera to that on a pro-grade sports oriented DSLR. I’d imagine the lag on the D780 or D750 would be closer to the Z6 II (though possibly still faster).
As to the Zf photos: it looks cool, but it also looks uncomfortable to hold and cramped in the controls department. It appears to be about the size of the Z6/Z7 bodies but without their nice grip and extra vertical space on the back.
Playback button being on the left side/requiring two hands kills this body immediately. Nikon pulled their head out of their ass with the Z8/Z9, and put it right back in here.
RoamingScott wrote:
Playback button being on the left side/requiring two hands kills this body immediately. Nikon pulled their head out of their ass with the Z8/Z9, and put it right back in here.
I mean it is a retro body with fixed function dials all over it that are a royal pain to use. I can’t imagine someone who has already sacrificed a functional modern UI for retro dials is going to be like “Oh my, the Play button requires my left hand! I’m out Nikon!”
kwalsh wrote:
I mean it is a retro body with fixed function dials all over it that are a royal pain to use. I can’t imagine someone who has already sacrificed a functional modern UI for retro dials is going to be like “Oh my, the Play button requires my left hand! I’m out Nikon!”
I have a "retro" camera with fixed dials all over that aren't a pain to use at all, and a play button in a non-braindead location to boot. It can be done.
RoamingScott wrote:
Playback button being on the left side/requiring two hands kills this body immediately. Nikon pulled their head out of their ass with the Z8/Z9, and put it right back in here.
Yeah, I wasn’t thinking they would do a Z6 etc level grip but the grip looks minuscule, the buttons are Zfc layout, which I would not prefer. Will have to see more photos of it. I’m surprised, but I may pass on this and shift the funds to the Z8 fund. I’m just glad it has the larger battery, and APS-C battery would kill this camera
Looks to validate some rumors, appears to be a Stills, Video and a “W” visible which is hopefully the B&W mode, though it will be interesting to see what that implies if it has to be a separate mode. If they’re doing some kind of processing etc to emphasize B&W I’d be pretty interested.
AdaptedLenses wrote:
Looks to validate some rumors, supers to be a Stills, Video and a “W” visible which is hopefully the B&W mode, though it will be interesting to see what that implies if it has to be a separate mode. If they’re doing some kind of processing etc to emphasize B&W I’d be pretty interested.
The switch I was interested in but not in that location. Make it like the other Z FF and have it on the stills/video button would be so, so much easier
BPsmith511 wrote:
Yeah, I wasn’t thinking they would do a Z6 etc level grip but the grip looks minuscule, the buttons are Zfc layout, which I would not prefer. Will have to see more photos of it. I’m surprised, but I may pass on this and shift the funds to the Z8 fund. I’m just glad it has the larger battery, and APS-C battery would kill this camera
We don't know if it's going to have the normal battery. From the pictures this thing looks like it's the size of the Z fc which also means it won't have space for the EN-EL15. The only hope is that those hands are way too huge and the actual camera is larger than the Z fc and has space for the bigger battery.
For anyone who cares, over at DPR I posted a really poor size comparison with the Z7 and Zfc using a scaled frame grab from the leaked video attempting to show IBIS functionality:
It isn't perfect because the Zf is being held perfectly parallel to the camera in the video, but basically it appears from the front the Zf is nearly the same size as the Zfc. Now of course it may have grown in thickness.
Anyway, these cameras aren't my cup of tea but figured someone might be interested. Or, you know, sensible people could just wait for the actual specs when released...
unchecked wrote:
We don't know if it's going to have the normal battery. From the pictures this thing looks like it's the size of the Z fc which also means it won't have space for the EN-EL15. The only hope is that those hands are way too huge and the actual camera is larger than the Z fc and has space for the bigger battery.
At this point I expect it to be very similar in size to the Zfc and that makes me question EN-EL15, which could be another significant drawback.
The body ergonomics are not that exciting unfortunately- no joystick and no 3D tracking would be annoying. So if it doesn’t have an expeed 7 I would be significantly less interested.
Hopefully we’ll see the release and some decent previews within the next 1-2 weeks. Usually it doesn’t take long from leaked pics to actual release
fjablo wrote:
no joystick and no 3D tracking would be annoying. So if it doesn’t have an expeed 7 I would be significantly less interested.
Good point. If it has functional 3D tracking with a functional UI for it one can argue the joystick isn’t as necessary. If it has weak tracking or the older hamfisted UI for tracking then that’d be a miss.
The selfie-screen kills it for me. I need something with a more practical tilting screen for photo and video shooting - if I want to take pictures of myself, I have an iPhone for that.
molson wrote:
The selfie-screen kills it for me. I need something with a more practical tilting screen for photo and video shooting - if I want to take pictures of myself, I have an iPhone for that.
It's for Vlogging more than selfies. All the big makes have correctly identified vlogging as a huge area of growth and a camera like the ZF is great for that. It's useful with the screen pointed forward, it looks good in social media posts of your camera, and I'm guessing it'll have the IQ chops to back everything up.
Additionally, you are likely able to reverse the screen for a more 'purist' no screen experience a la some of Leica's offerings.
fjablo wrote:
At this point I expect it to be very similar in size to the Zfc and that makes me question EN-EL15, which could be another significant drawback.
The body ergonomics are not that exciting unfortunately- no joystick and no 3D tracking would be annoying. So if it doesn’t have an expeed 7 I would be significantly less interested.
Hopefully we’ll see the release and some decent previews within the next 1-2 weeks. Usually it doesn’t take long from leaked pics to actual release
It looks to be almost identical size as the Zfc with the exception of the grip. Look how little distance there is between the bottom of the lens mount and the bottom of the camera - same thing on the top. Looks to be damn near the same as the Zfc.
Kind of a bummer. I was hoping it would have the Df form factor.
Also, the texturing of the body looks kind of stupid with a nice, smooth, modern lens on it...
molson wrote:
Same thing. For anything else, it's a drawback, not a feature.
It's one of those things they needed to add if they intend to sell this camera. The swivel screen has been taking over tilt screens over the last few years. If we look at the more recent releases from the main companies within the last 2 years..
Sony
The a1 has the tilt screen
The a6700, a7iv, FX30 have the swivel screen. The rumoured a7cii and a7CR are allegedly going to have swivel screens. The swivel screen is so important they even gave the a7Rv's tilt screen another axis to swivel the screen around.
1(2):6
Canon:
Everything in the RF line up has a swivel screen, except the R100 which screen doesn't pull out at all. The R3, R6ii, R7, R8, R10, R50. 6 cameras if we have to count for the last 2 years.
0:6
Panasonic
The S5ii/x has the swivel screen
0:1
Fujifilm
The X-T5 has the tilt screen
GFX50sii has the tilt screen.
The X-H2 and X-H2S have the swivel screen
The X-S20 has the swivel screen.
1:3
Nikon
The Z8 and Z9 have the tilt screen
The Z fc has the swivel screen
2:1
Out of the cameras within the last 2 years, only 5 (6 if you count the a7Rv) has the tilt screen. 17/22 have swivel around screens. You're not going to like it, but we're well into the swivel era.
unchecked wrote:
It's one of those things they needed to add if they intend to sell this camera. The swivel screen has been taking over tilt screens over the last few years. If we look at the more recent releases from the main companies within the last 2 years..
Sony
The a1 has the tilt screen
The a6700, a7iv, FX30 have the swivel screen. The rumoured a7cii and a7CR are allegedly going to have swivel screens. The swivel screen is so important they even gave the a7Rv's tilt screen another axis to swivel the screen around.
1(2):6
Canon:
Everything in the RF line up has a swivel screen, except the R100 which screen doesn't pull out at all. The R3, R6ii, R7, R8, R10, R50. 6 cameras if we have to count for the last 2 years.
0:6
Panasonic
The S5ii/x has the swivel screen
0:1
Fujifilm
The X-T5 has the tilt screen
GFX50sii ha the tilt screen.
The X-H2 and X-H2S have the swivel screen
The X-S20 has the swivel screen.
1:3
Nikon
The Z8 and Z9 have the tilt screen
The Z fc has the swivel screen
2:1
Out of the cameras within the last 2 years, only 4 (5 if you count the a7Rv) has the tilt screen. 18/22 or 81% have swivel around screens. You're not going to like it, but we're well into the swivel era. ...Show more →
I don't follow the YouTube lemmings.
That's why I'm using a Nikon Z8 instead of a Canon R5 - it's one of the few remaining cameras for more serious photo and video work.
It appears that it is the Stills / Video “switch” which is a subdial on that dial (assume shutter speed?) Hoping since it’s a third switch, alternative to stills mode they’re doing something “extra” than just a B&W picture control.
BPsmith511 wrote:
The switch I was interested in but not in that location. Make it like the other Z FF and have it on the stills/video button would be so, so much easier
Things I need from this camera to buy and use it:
1) Acceptable AF. It needs to be at least close to the level of the z8/z9, which are still lagging behind sony, but still very good enough that it hits moving targets with reliability.
2) EN-EL15 battery. Without this, I'm out. I need to be able to throw this in the bag as a fun second camera and don't want the extra weight and space of a different battery especially if traveling.
3) Not a stacked sensor. I don't need a fast readout from this camera and don't want it. I would like the sensor to be on par with or out perform the z6/z6ii sensor. If it's on par with the z6 camera, great. Very few people will want or need 20fps from this camera, including me, who shoots sports for money. This is a fun walk-around/second camera for event photos that aren't action. I would rather have dynamic range than speed.
4) The retro dials don't get in the way of using the camera effectively and the design doesn't feel cheap or plasticy. I absolutely love shooting my Nikon FE bodies. They feel good in the hand and have a really tactile experience to them. Part of that is having the aperture on the lens though, and Nikon decided to completely remove that from their mirrorless lenses. At least the Sony lenses still have clickable aperture. The control ring on higher end nikon Z lenses is a waste of space. So, that part of the user experience isn't coming back. It looks like the exposure comp dial is large and on the right hand side of the camera (from the shooters perspective). I don't like this on sony cameras and wouldn't like it on the Zf. Exposure comp was well done on the Nikon film cameras and with the button on later film and Z cameras.
5) A mechanical shutter. I understand why the z8/z9 don't have this, but I do miss it on occasion. There are many times where I run into banding issues that can't be avoided with the z8 and z9.
Things I'm ambivalent about, but maybe leaning toward:
1) IBIS. Not a deal breaker for me, but if this is going to be a walkaround camera, it would be beneficial.
2) Flippy screen. i don't like these. For video Im sure they are great. They mess up your lines for photography. You can't tilt without moving it to the side and when youre trying to line up a shot and the screen is 4 inches off the lens axis, it messes things up. There is a reason that pro cameras avoid these. I feel like if it wasn't there we would only hear about how its missing from youtubers who like these, but photographers will (rightfully) complain about a flimsy flip screen if its there. I like being able to shoot low with the Z8 screen in portrait mode so I guess the flip screen helps that, but it detracts aesthetically for me and feels cheap and isn't ideal.
3) USB-PD is nice, but should be standard these days anyway.
4) I don't really care about video features as this doesn't really seem targeted to the video crowd. I don't think this needs to be an everything to everyone camera, but I guess the flippy screen suggests that nikon thinks otherwise.
Things I wish it had, but don't think it will:
1) a better screen or EVF. Pick one, but both are a bit lackluster in 2023 on the z6/z7 lines.
2) One CF express type B. I would take one more reliable card than two less reliable ones, especially since CF-B cards are what I'm going to already have spares of in my bag.
3) Black and Silver. Avoid the color models that will sit on shelves and take up manufacturing capacity. 3 people want a seafoam green Zf.
4) a vintage styled FTZ. I actually enjoy using my MF lenses on my Z8. The focus peaking makes using them quick and accurate. They will look stupid on a Zf with the current FTZ.
unchecked wrote:
It's one of those things they needed to add if they intend to sell this camera. The swivel screen has been taking over tilt screens over the last few years. If we look at the more recent releases from the main companies within the last 2 years..
Sony
The a1 has the tilt screen
The a6700, a7iv, FX30 have the swivel screen. The rumoured a7cii and a7CR are allegedly going to have swivel screens. The swivel screen is so important they even gave the a7Rv's tilt screen another axis to swivel the screen around.
1(2):6
Canon:
Everything in the RF line up has a swivel screen, except the R100 which screen doesn't pull out at all. The R3, R6ii, R7, R8, R10, R50. 6 cameras if we have to count for the last 2 years.
0:6
Panasonic
The S5ii/x has the swivel screen
0:1
Fujifilm
The X-T5 has the tilt screen
GFX50sii has the tilt screen.
The X-H2 and X-H2S have the swivel screen
The X-S20 has the swivel screen.
1:3
Nikon
The Z8 and Z9 have the tilt screen
The Z fc has the swivel screen
2:1
Out of the cameras within the last 2 years, only 5 (6 if you count the a7Rv) has the tilt screen. 17/22 have swivel around screens. You're not going to like it, but we're well into the swivel era. ...Show more →
Well if you have to be limited to 5 cameras out of 22 that's a list of 5 that's hard to beat.
