p.2 #1 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
I cannot add anything to the sharpness/dof discussion, as that is not an area where I am picky. But, I do find the shadow noise, overall color, and file plasticity of the d850 (at iso64 particularly) better than just about everything on the (FF and smaller) market. (Relevant to this discussion, I’ve shot a z9)The Z7ii probably functionally matches it since they fixed the PDAF stripes of the gen1, but the z mount lenses will obviously render differently from Fmount.
Every time I think of getting rid of the d850, I shoot with the 28/58/105 1.4’s and damn that’s hard to walk away from.
I do FULLY recognize that a camera like a z8 has HUGE WILDLY superior AF (incl. accuracy in AFS, tracking in AFC, and full frame coverage) as well as many many other benefits (usb-c charging, little smaller lighter, z mount lenses, exposure preview, double back button AF,etc,etc). So I am not a mirror less Luddite, but those d850 files are really really good at iso64 and gracefully degrade with increased iso (unlike the Leica SL2 whose shadows fall off a cliff at iso80p)
p.2 #2 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
a statement of usage. i have been using adobe color in all my bodies and post for years. so depending that you use it is not wrong as long as you carry through its usage in post. and of course it starts with your monitor and it being able to be calibrated and being done properly.
p.2 #3 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
Kasper6188 wrote:
So, after using the z9 since release and retiring my D850 to the storage bin I decided to take it out a few weeks back and start shooting with the ole girl again. Obviously the z8/9 has many advantages over the d850 with all the mirrorless tech and all, but ultimate image quality doesn't seem to be one of them, to me at least. Specifically the color and fine detail retained in the shadows.
I think you're splitting hairs and would need a lot more controlled testing to validate your conclusions here, however, I think in general you're asking a question that was answered a long time ago. I've never seen anyone claim that the Z9 sensor produces superior IQ vs the D850 sensor. The list of reasons to use the Z9 over the D850 is long but I don't think sensor IQ is one of them.
Jun 06, 2023 at 12:48 PM
AmbientMike Offline • • • • • • [X]
p.2 #4 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
There's little or no incentive to hold on to a better look. People have a strong tendency to buy based on measurables like sharper lenses and better DR high iso etc. So if they put out a camera having a better "look" of an older body they're likely to get killed on the review sites imo.
Even on a semI recent rebel I can't use older alt superteles past 1/1000. The top gets too dark and the bottom to light , or vice versa. Some computational imaging or something going on in the inexpensive ones even. I managed to find the T6 in the image comparison tool and it was as sharp as the 6D, a ff camera iso 100. So you have to think it has more sharpening. I'm not one to necessarily notice this stuff, but even if you are actually nuts (and I don't think you are) or completely screwing up pp I mean: you are shooting a D850. What's the problem ? That looks like one excellent camera
But yes if someone says they get a better look off an older camera I tend to think they are. If they're not, well, even the d700/D3 and 5D still take excellent photos so who cares. I've been shooting an older camera and red doesn't seem to blow out as easily, so there can be advantages
p.2 #5 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
RobCD wrote:
I think you're splitting hairs and would need a lot more controlled testing to validate your conclusions here, however, I think in general you're asking a question that was answered a long time ago. I've never seen anyone claim that the Z9 sensor produces superior IQ vs the D850 sensor. The list of reasons to use the Z9 over the D850 is long but I don't think sensor IQ is one of them.
Oh yes, I am absolutely splitting hairs here, literally In real world usage there is not much of a difference.
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AmbientMike wrote:
There's little or no incentive to hold on to a better look. People have a strong tendency to buy based on measurables like sharper lenses and better DR high iso etc. So if they put out a camera having a better "look" of an older body they're likely to get killed on the review sites imo.
Even on a semI recent rebel I can't use teles past 1/1000. The top gets too dark and the bottom to light , or vice versa. Some computational imaging or something going on in the inexpensive ones even. I managed to find the T6 in the image comparison tool and it was as sharp as the 6D, a ff camera iso 100. So you have to think it has more sharpening. I'm not one to necessarily notice this stuff, but even if you are actually nuts (and I don't think you are) or completely screwing up pp I mean: you are shooting a D850. What's the problem ? That looks like one excellent camera
But yes if someone says they get a better look off an older camera I tend to think they are. If they're not, well, even the d700/D3 and 5D still take excellent photos so who cares. I've been shooting an older camera and red doesn't seem to blow out as easily, so there can be advantages ...Show more →
Absolutely right, any company would get eaten alive if the spec sheet didn't stack up to the competitors. Specially when the look is readily available in the older bodies. I still regularly shoot a D700, that is one of my favorite cameras still to this date.
I was mainly looking to see if anyone else had noticed what I think I noticed I should have titled my thread in a less "stir the pot" sort of way but it would probably have just gone unnoticed at that point.
p.2 #7 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
cope07 wrote:
I cannot add anything to the sharpness/dof discussion, as that is not an area where I am picky. But, I do find the shadow noise, overall color, and file plasticity of the d850 (at iso64 particularly) better than just about everything on the (FF and smaller) market. (Relevant to this discussion, I’ve shot a z9)The Z7ii probably functionally matches it since they fixed the PDAF stripes of the gen1, but the z mount lenses will obviously render differently from Fmount.
Every time I think of getting rid of the d850, I shoot with the 28/58/105 1.4’s and damn that’s hard to walk away from.
I do FULLY recognize that a camera like a z8 has HUGE WILDLY superior AF (incl. accuracy in AFS, tracking in AFC, and full frame coverage) as well as many many other benefits (usb-c charging, little smaller lighter, z mount lenses, exposure preview, double back button AF,etc,etc). So I am not a mirror less Luddite, but those d850 files are really really good at iso64 and gracefully degrade with increased iso (unlike the Leica SL2 whose shadows fall off a cliff at iso80p)...Show more →
We definitely share some of the same opinions. If IQ was the only variable I would easily list the d850 at the top of the FF tier but the Z8/9 is vastly superior in every other aspect. Well minus the not so important stuff like battery life etc.
The 28/58/105 trio, creme de la creme, perfect balance. I don't think I will ever part with those.
p.2 #8 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
RoamingScott wrote:
None of the examples in this thread are controlled nor conclusive.
These examples reflect my personal experience of shooting 100's of thousands of wildlife images with all sorts of different gear, not scientific. Everyone is going to have their own opinion of what a better image is or isn't and that is perfectly ok, it is immeasurable. I was mainly looking to see if anyone else had noticed any of these things and should have worded my thread as more of a question, but my thread would probably have fallen into obscurity at that point.
p.2 #9 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
I think that based on what you’ve said and what you’ve posted:
1. Yes the D850 has a very VERY modest advantage in dynamic range due to very slightly less noise in the deepest shadows.
2. You are not used to the level of sharpness provided by the combination of autofocus that is coplanar with the sensor and free of front or backfocusing.
3. You are not used to the increase in sharpness provided by the lack of vibration imparted by the mirror flapping about.
Jim Kasson, Bill Claff, or others doing much more rigorously scientific testing would have uncovered any sharpening being applied to raw files.
p.2 #10 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
IQ for a lot of people is subjective. Not sure anyone needs to try to explain or convince you of anything. If you look at images from both the D850 and Z9 or Z8 and you consistently like the IQ of the D850 better, nothing anyone tells you is going to change that. Because regardless if anyone can show test charts to the contrary, what you see is the deciding factor. Nothing else matters, at least to me, than real world results/performance.
What can help make a decision for you is if the other aspects of mirrorless advantages over DSLR mean enough to you. Real time exposure in the EVF, blackout free EVF andeye/subject detection to make a few.
p.2 #15 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
Depends on the lens. I used the Sigma 40 1.4 for like a month on the Z7II and Z9 just fine and the moment I put it on the D850 I had to AF fine tune it. I have to do "something" with the Sigma 50 1.4 as well, because that thing don't look right on a lot of the DSLR's that I have same will probably be said about the Sigma 85 1.4 and 135 1.8 as well if I ever get those. sjms wrote:
funny, i never touched the AF FT on the 850
p.2 #16 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
true and that says something about the lens and that is understood since there is no intercooperation. the only Sigma i really have left is the 120-300 its a happy lens on my D500. i shoot zooms. i don't swap out that often at all.
in the stuff i do i try to keep it operationally simple.
Jun 06, 2023 at 03:42 PM
AmbientMike Offline • • • • • • [X]
p.2 #17 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
Kasper6188 wrote:
I absolutely do not dispute the fact that the z8/9 will net more keepers overall and that all the other added quality of life improvements of mirrorless makes getting your shot easier. I have both z8/9 and d850 and will continue to use them all based on what I am shooting. I'm just noticing that the images I am getting out of the Z seem more artificial to me than the F bodies. A lot of people seem to praise the Z lenses and their sharpness compared to the F but I think there may be more to it than that. The Z bodies seem to be doing something to the raw file behind the scenes to spit them out in a sharper state straight out of camera. Also, I have no clue what is going on with that wild pattern in the Z image with edge detection.
D850 then Z8, then with edge detection in PS. These were shot at the exact same settings, no light changed. The Z magically has more DOF creating harsher falloff? Also, at longer distances this creates a pasted on look to me.
It's probably pretty easy to tape some contacts or something. To see if there's significant lens corrections etc going on. Even the canon SL2 has basic lens corrections in body, so it'snot surprising if the Z9 has them.
I edited my comment above, having issues with 300mm alt tele, probably other long alt teles.
p.2 #18 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
TBH I'm not seeing any differences in these images. Apart from the DPR shot posted above which shows severe purple fringing of the lens used. Maybe it's my monitor or maybe I am not looking long and hard enough.
p.2 #19 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
Kasper6188 wrote:
I'm not sure either, probably a little personal experience coupled with ignorance and a splash of bias. Still doesn't change the fact that I personally see a difference. If you don't that's fine too, a "better picture" is ultimately up to personal interpretation. Maybe it is adobe like others state, there are many variables here. It doesn't make me stupid or an idiot for seeing a difference like your "D850 TakEs BeTtEr PiCtureS Than Z8/Z9...ChAnGe mY MinD" implies.
In real world usage there is not much of a difference. 