p.1 #1 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
So, after using the z9 since release and retiring my D850 to the storage bin I decided to take it out a few weeks back and start shooting with the ole girl again. Obviously the z8/9 has many advantages over the d850 with all the mirrorless tech and all, but ultimate image quality doesn't seem to be one of them, to me at least. Specifically the color and fine detail retained in the shadows.
My scientifically un-scientific test, both shot on 70-200FL, raw, imported into LR, and exported as full quality jpg, no other changes.
Pic 1: z8, iso500 (supposedly where dual gain kicks in and things get better?)
Pic 2: d850 iso800
Pixel peep the shadow area by her collar tag, for being shot at higher iso, sure seems cleaner to me. Am I crazy? (don't answer that) Could it be LR and how it's handling the Z files?
p.1 #4 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
There is some penalty in the shadow noise for the fast readout sensor in the Z9/Z8.
However, your ISO settings were different between the two images, and there could be other aspects contributing to your findings. But it's not unexpected that the D850 has an advantage in shadow noise.
The 70-200/2.8 FL is a fantastic lens. But if you pick F-mount and Z-mount 24-70mm f/2.8, you'll probably find that the Z-mount version gives sharper results especially wide open. When using shorter focal lengths like that you might find that overall the image quality is better on the Z9/Z8 with the appropriate Z-mount lens. For telephoto, there is less of a difference as the F-mount was not restricting telephoto lens design as much.
I wouldn't worry about it too much. :-) But there is no question that there is a slight penalty from having that fast sensor readout capability. Engineering involves compromises and you have to pick what works best for your use case and requirements.
I would be surprising if Nikon didn't offer a low ISO dynamic range optimized, high-resolution camera in the Z mount at some point in the not too distant future, and there you might find further advantages at ISO 64, probably higher resolution and maybe even a mechanical shutter.
p.1 #5 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
ilkka_nissila wrote:
There is some penalty in the shadow noise for the fast readout sensor in the Z9/Z8.
However, your ISO settings were different between the two images, and there could be other aspects contributing to your findings. But it's not unexpected that the D850 has an advantage in shadow noise.
The 70-200/2.8 FL is a fantastic lens. But if you pick F-mount and Z-mount 24-70mm f/2.8, you'll probably find that the Z-mount version gives sharper results especially wide open. When using shorter focal lengths like that you might find that overall the image quality is better on the Z9/Z8 with the appropriate Z-mount lens. For telephoto, there is less of a difference as the F-mount was not restricting telephoto lens design as much.
I wouldn't worry about it too much. :-) But there is no question that there is a slight penalty from having that fast sensor readout capability. Engineering involves compromises and you have to pick what works best for your use case and requirements.
I would be surprising if Nikon didn't offer a low ISO dynamic range optimized, high-resolution camera in the Z mount at some point in the not too distant future, and there you might find further advantages at ISO 64, probably higher resolution and maybe even a mechanical shutter....Show more →
This makes a lot of sense, thanks. I do understand this particular test is flawed. My findings are not based on this alone. Its just something I noticed overall in the last few weeks shooting with and editing d850 raws and decided to take a quick shot side by side. I’m more of a telephoto shooter vs a wide end shooter so I certainly notice it more. The Z wides sure are stunning though. The 24-70 2.8 is easily the best short zoom I’ve ever used.
p.1 #6 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
For me it comes down to eVF vs oVF and which you prefer. I've owned and sold a D750 and D850 and now own a Z50 and a Z5 because I don't need 45mp for what I do and I prefer eVF over a oVF. Mirrorless is also lighter and quieter vs dSLR. As for IQ? I doubt there is much if any difference yet. However, the dSLR and its' lenses are at the peak of their development and mirrorless is still in its' infancy.
p.1 #7 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
Yes it has been well established since the early DR testing of the Z9 that the stacked sensor gave up some of the low ISO performance of the D850.
Here is the PDR graph from Bill Claff....marked difference below ISO 500. Not sure about your ISO 800 and why it would be performing that much better than the Z9 at ISO 500?? There was likely different amount of light hitting that area of the dog due to the different position?
I would try a more controlled test. Non-moving subject, same ISO (I'd test ISO 64 and ISO 500), same Adobe profiles, same exposure settings.
You can also check out the DPR studio scene as they've already done the testing for you...one quick screen shot below.
p.1 #8 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
Better new lenses for the Z9/Z8 and much improved autofocus performance with eye detection. I can fix a lot of things in post processing but not an out of focus image or a subject I missed while the camera was hunting.
One situation where the D850 autofocus would fail is with a subject rapidly approaching the camera. The D5 I also owned had 20 infocus shots with a rapidly approaching raptor but zero shots with the D850 camera. This is a very difficult AF situation for cameras and not one that everyone cares about. But for sports and wildlife photographers it is a very big deal.
p.1 #9 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
I think D850 and Z7/ Z7ii have pretty much identical performance, IQ wise.
I don't pixelpeep much but to be honest, postprocessing milkyway shot, landscape shots etc
at base ISO or any ISO, I have not noticed much difference or worsen IQ one way or another.
I am sure if I really try, I could detect differences but Z8/Z9 is good enough and all the extra
features certainly make it a worthwhile trade off.
p.1 #10 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
I absolutely do not dispute the fact that the z8/9 will net more keepers overall and that all the other added quality of life improvements of mirrorless makes getting your shot easier. I have both z8/9 and d850 and will continue to use them all based on what I am shooting. I'm just noticing that the images I am getting out of the Z seem more artificial to me than the F bodies. A lot of people seem to praise the Z lenses and their sharpness compared to the F but I think there may be more to it than that. The Z bodies seem to be doing something to the raw file behind the scenes to spit them out in a sharper state straight out of camera. Also, I have no clue what is going on with that wild pattern in the Z image with edge detection.
D850 then Z8, then with edge detection in PS. These were shot at the exact same settings, no light changed. The Z magically has more DOF creating harsher falloff? Also, at longer distances this creates a pasted on look to me.
p.1 #11 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
Kasper6188 wrote:
I absolutely do not dispute the fact that the z8/9 will net more keepers overall and that all the other added quality of life improvements of mirrorless makes getting your shot easier. I have both z8/9 and d850 and will continue to use them all based on what I am shooting. I'm just noticing that the images I am getting out of the Z seem more artificial to me than the F bodies. A lot of people seem to praise the Z lenses and their sharpness compared to the F but I think there may be more to it than that. The Z bodies seem to be doing something to the raw file behind the scenes to spit them out in a sharper state straight out of camera. Also, I have no clue what is going on with that wild pattern in the Z image with edge detection.
D850 then Z8, then with edge detection in PS. These were shot at the exact same settings, no light changed. The Z magically has more DOF creating harsher falloff? Also, at longer distances this creates a pasted on look to me.
Brother, all you’re seeing here is your D850 mildly front focused. No magic to it.
Jun 05, 2023 at 11:10 PM
AmbientMike Offline • • • • • • [X]
p.1 #12 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
Kasper6188 wrote:
So, after using the z9 since release and retiring my D850 to the storage bin I decided to take it out a few weeks back and start shooting with the ole girl again. Obviously the z8/9 has many advantages over the d850 with all the mirrorless tech and all, but ultimate image quality doesn't seem to be one of them, to me at least. Specifically the color and fine detail retained in the shadows.
My scientifically un-scientific test, both shot on 70-200FL, raw, imported into LR, and exported as full quality jpg, no other changes.
Pic 1: z8, iso500 (supposedly where dual gain kicks in and things get better?)
Pic 2: d850 iso800
Pixel peep the shadow area by her collar tag, for being shot at higher iso, sure seems cleaner to me. Am I crazy? (don't answer that) Could it be LR and how it's handling the Z files?
How dare you get on FM and say that DSLR has advantages over mirrorless.
Seriously though nothing wrong with the D850. Bill Claff does list the max DR higher. Nobody really considered slightly higher ISO's much, it was more "mirrorless is the future!" and all that jazz when people list their minds over DR
p.1 #13 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
Kasper6188 wrote:
I absolutely do not dispute the fact that the z8/9 will net more keepers overall and that all the other added quality of life improvements of mirrorless makes getting your shot easier. I have both z8/9 and d850 and will continue to use them all based on what I am shooting. I'm just noticing that the images I am getting out of the Z seem more artificial to me than the F bodies. A lot of people seem to praise the Z lenses and their sharpness compared to the F but I think there may be more to it than that. The Z bodies seem to be doing something to the raw file behind the scenes to spit them out in a sharper state straight out of camera. Also, I have no clue what is going on with that wild pattern in the Z image with edge detection.
D850 then Z8, then with edge detection in PS. These were shot at the exact same settings, no light changed. The Z magically has more DOF creating harsher falloff? Also, at longer distances this creates a pasted on look to me.
What lenses were used? Are they the same lens on the Z8/Z9 as well as the D850 - ie an F mount lens with FTZ on the Z8/Z9 and also used on the D850? If you are using a Z mount lens on the Z8 and an F mount lens on the D850, there could be lens design differences due to F mount compared to Z mount in the way the DOF behaves on their respective mounts. I seriously doubt there is any in camera sharpening happening to the RAW file.
p.1 #14 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
Jesse Evans wrote:
Brother, all you’re seeing here is your D850 mildly front focused. No magic to it.
Look at the couch also, doesn't matter where focus landed, the couch has a smoother more gradual sharpness falloff.
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Lance B wrote:
What lenses were used? Are they the same lens on the Z8/Z9 as well as the D850 - ie an F mount lens with FTZ on the Z8/Z9 and also used on the D850? If you are using a Z mount lens on the Z8 and an F mount lens on the D850, there could be lens design differences due to F mount compared to Z mount in the way the DOF behaves on their respective mounts. I seriously doubt there is any in camera sharpening happening to the RAW file.
This was the same lens, set to same focus distance. Same SS, iso, F stop. 70-200FL
p.1 #15 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
An example of what I see when comparing my photos universally, top D850, swallow has dimension, looks real, bottom z9, swallow is SHARP, no dimension, looks pasted on. Obviously this has no real merit as a technical comparison because it's a different day, different lighting, different iso, ss, f, and lens even (yet still both F mount adapted) Just a general visual example of my experience. I did try and pick photos that cropped to around the same resolution though. No topaz or anything just basic LR
p.1 #16 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
Kasper6188 wrote:
The Z bodies seem to be doing something to the raw file behind the scenes to spit them out in a sharper state straight out of camera.
Adobe's ACR is a black box so there's not much you can assume about the raw files based on ACR'differences between two cameras. If you can do a setup on a tripod and shoot a set of comparison photos I'd be happy to have a look at the raw files using my analytical tools in Matlab and various other methods.
p.1 #17 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
Kasper6188 wrote:
Look at the couch also, doesn't matter where focus landed, the couch has a smoother more gradual sharpness falloff.
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This was the same lens, set to same focus distance. Same SS, iso, F stop. 70-200FL
I’m sorry, I don’t see what you’re seeing in the couch at all. All I see is the cats face in sharper focus. Set Adobe sharpening to 0 on both files in Lightroom/ACR and see how it goes.
p.1 #18 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
Kasper6188 wrote:
An example of what I see when comparing my photos universally, top D850, swallow has dimension, looks real, bottom z9, swallow is SHARP, no dimension, looks pasted on. Obviously this has no real merit as a technical comparison because it's a different day, different lighting, different iso, ss, f, and lens even (yet still both F mount adapted) Just a general visual example of my experience. I did try and pick photos that cropped to around the same resolution though. No topaz or anything just basic LR
I'm not sure either, probably a little personal experience coupled with ignorance and a splash of bias. Still doesn't change the fact that I personally see a difference. If you don't that's fine too, a "better picture" is ultimately up to personal interpretation. Maybe it is adobe like others state, there are many variables here. It doesn't make me stupid or an idiot for seeing a difference like your "D850 TakEs BeTtEr PiCtureS Than Z8/Z9...ChAnGe mY MinD" implies.
