p.8 #1 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
NonDecaf wrote:
I work in industrial automation and deal with linear actuators on a daily basis. It's not wrong to say that VCMs are going to be the dominant tech going forward, but there is absolutely nothing revolutionary about VCMs in 2023, even as micromotors. No, Sony or whoever didn't "invent" them, so the sony fanboys need to calm down a bit We have had them for decades in every industry, and on the consumer side famously in hard-disk heads (as dual-actuator systems with PZT). In fact they have historically been limited in use for low-torque applications (which is why you might see quad or dual motors employed for moving heavy focusing groups). Today's advances are about lower power use and a higher force generation capacity using a micromotor that occupies a small space. To put things in perspective For e.g. Tamron in their marketing literature about their linear motors boats a positional accuracy of 0.005mm and hard-disks have been doing a three-sigma of roughly 5nm for decades. 5nm is 0.000005mm....Show more →
It's not about whether any of these camera brands invented VCMs, but the why and how they use these in their lenses. Are you familiar with the other motor technologies? If you are, you can explain to us why you think VCMs are going to be the dominant tech going forward. Sony leads the pack with the implementation of these motors in their mirrorless lenses, other brands are/were taking their time. Even within the use of VCMs, later Sony lenses use more of them in the later generations (need a different optical design to accomplish that) to achieve a much more responsive experience. I have seen people argued before that VCMs offer no advantage over stepper motors (just like groobie above).
p.8 #2 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
People just use their own preferences/needs to justify why they think one option is superior to others. Unfortunately, you will unlikely match your "extreme" use case with others' findings. In the end, best to try them on your own. Then and there you know if you can see any AF speed differences.
I like some features of the Z8, but unfortunately, I have not found any Nikkor lenses that I want to get. And it's just silly to buy the Z8 to use my Sony lenses with an adapter....
p.8 #3 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
hiepphotog wrote:
People just use their own preferences/needs to justify why they think one option is superior to others. Unfortunately, you will unlikely match your "extreme" use case with others' findings. In the end, best to try them on your own. Then and there you know if you can see any AF speed differences.
I like some features of the Z8, but unfortunately, I have not found any Nikkor lenses that I want to get. And it's just silly to buy the Z8 to use my Sony lenses with an adapter....
I like their 85mm f1.2 but it is so expensive…
I find Sony sell their bodies expensive but lens cheap because of third party lens competition. Honestly previously there just wasn’t any competition for camera bodies and thus Sony can price them high. Now they are leveraging in the lens selection adv to justify the pricing on bodies. The Sony lens selection is really much cheaper.
May 12, 2023 at 05:03 AM
duncang Offline • • • [X]
p.8 #4 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
arbitrage wrote:
Where is the "no good at all" quote coming from?
You quoted a post talking about the A9II vs the Z8 (Z9)...nothing about the A1 in that post.
Yes I'm pickier than 99% of other people on here but I make myself clear in most of my posts (maybe not all of them) about what subjects or situations I'm talking about.
In the post you quoted, I said the Z8 could capture anything you want it to. Exactly what you are saying...even about the D850. And I'd agree. I could get all the swallows I wanted and every other BIF I tried (including small passerines like finches) with my D850.....when I put in the effort.
I guess I just like to take the easy route these days. And in my hands the easy route to getting the shots I want, getting more keepers to choose from in a given session and most importantly, giving me the highest chance of getting that 1 in a million split second moment I'll never see again is the Sony A1.
I've never once said a Z8 or a Z9 or an R5 or a D850 or a D500 or an A7RV can't get me a type of shot I'm after. I've got challenging swallows etc with all those cameras.
I made a recent post on BCG showing a shot from each of those cameras to prove it isn't the gear...check it out:
Of course it is possible to capture any image you want with those camera's - but I don't have two lifetimes in which to try - in fact I don't even have on whole one left - and that's why I choose Sony.
Oh and don't forget to download these and view on a 5K display with a native image viewer for the very best result.
p.8 #5 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
osv2 wrote:
a gear discussion with someone who doesn't even know what focus motors he's used? waste of time.
his entire vocabulary is limited to: "show me the photo that an A1 could capture but a Z9 couldn’t"; that's not a gear discussion, especially in a z8 thread.
as i pointed out earlier, he made false claims about what arbitrage posted: "he said a9, not a1"
those things are not good faith discussion.
he's trolling, no doubt because of his inferiority complex over owning nikon, lol
I think it speaks volumes that you believe ultimate image output and has no place in a discussion about photography gear. For me, at least, it says everything I need to know. You’ve truly earned your place as the crowned king of measurebators.
p.8 #6 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
arbitrage wrote:
Where is the "no good at all" quote coming from?
You quoted a post talking about the A9II vs the Z8 (Z9)...nothing about the A1 in that post.
Yes I'm pickier than 99% of other people on here but I make myself clear in most of my posts (maybe not all of them) about what subjects or situations I'm talking about.
In the post you quoted, I said the Z8 could capture anything you want it to. Exactly what you are saying...even about the D850. And I'd agree. I could get all the swallows I wanted and every other BIF I tried (including small passerines like finches) with my D850.....when I put in the effort.
I guess I just like to take the easy route these days. And in my hands the easy route to getting the shots I want, getting more keepers to choose from in a given session and most importantly, giving me the highest chance of getting that 1 in a million split second moment I'll never see again is the Sony A1.
I've never once said a Z8 or a Z9 or an R5 or a D850 or a D500 or an A7RV can't get me a type of shot I'm after. I've got challenging swallows etc with all those cameras.
I made a recent post on BCG showing a shot from each of those cameras to prove it isn't the gear...check it out:
You said: “Z8 still requires clunky handoff AF methods and it is no good at all at distant subjects or subjects over more complicated backgrounds.”
Perhaps that was over reading it and leaving out some context on my part. I sought some clarification based on our previous discussion about the Z9 relative to the A1.
p.8 #7 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
hiepphotog wrote:
It's not about whether any of these camera brands invented VCMs, but the why and how they use these in their lenses. Are you familiar with the other motor technologies? If you are, you can explain to us why you think VCMs are going to be the dominant tech going forward. Sony leads the pack with the implementation of these motors in their mirrorless lenses, other brands are/were taking their time. Even within the use of VCMs, later Sony lenses use more of them in the later generations (need a different optical design to accomplish that) to achieve a much more responsive experience. I have seen people argued before that VCMs offer no advantage over stepper motors (just like groobie above).
Tbc, I’m perfectly happy to concede that VCMs offer best-in-class performance. My point is that, practically speaking, one’s results are not going to vary much, if it all, when shooting with a telephoto that has a stepper motor or a SWM, instead of a VCM. Even assuming a VCM offers the best performance, the difference is going to be slight, and there will be a negligible effect on ultimate output.
May 12, 2023 at 05:54 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.8 #8 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
hiepphotog wrote:
People just use their own preferences/needs to justify why they think one option is superior to others. Unfortunately, you will unlikely match your "extreme" use case with others' findings. In the end, best to try them on your own. Then and there you know if you can see any AF speed differences.
I like some features of the Z8, but unfortunately, I have not found any Nikkor lenses that I want to get. And it's just silly to buy the Z8 to use my Sony lenses with an adapter....
Well it is close to the opposite for me. The lenses I really want the 400 f/4.5S and the 800 f/6.3S PF (maybe some day) Sony has no equivalent. I would love to replace my 200-600 G with the 400 f/4.5S and 1.4X TC and that is why I will probably get the Z8.
p.8 #9 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
groob wrote:
You said: “Z8 still requires clunky handoff AF methods and it is no good at all at distant subjects or subjects over more complicated backgrounds.”
Perhaps that was over reading it and leaving out some context on my part. I sought some clarification based on our previous discussion about the Z9 relative to the A1.
I still stand by that statement. Z9 is not good at seeing a distant, small in the frame subject and has a lot of issues initiating and holding a tracking lock over complicated backgrounds. But that doesn't mean the AF as a whole is not good. At least I didn't intend it to mean that.
And I mean most of the time I'm out (with any camera) trying to get subjects in situations that aren't over complicated backgrounds and that are as close as possible. But often being able to acquire a subject early when it is smaller in the frame allows a camera to track it as it approaches and then you can take the shots when it is big enough. Doing initial acquisition of a fast target when it is already fairly close and large in the frame is 10x more difficult for the operator to keep it in frame and for the camera to react quickly enough because the larger/closer subject moves through the FOV way faster than a more distant subject.
Nikon had this down with its final generation of DSLRs shot in Auto AF. Sony has this almost perfected (well, not really, they could always make it better) shot in Wide AF (no tracking). The thing I love about Sony is how easy it is for a new user to get shooting. Literally if you hand a Sony to someone, set it up in Wide AF, no tracking, AF Sensitivity to 1 and tell them to try and have the subject close to the centre of the frame when first engaging the AF, they will be blown away no matter what they are coming from. Only Nikon DSLRs came close to that functionality.
p.8 #10 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
That 400 f/4.5S is a nice looking lens and at what seems to be a reasonable price. I wouldn't change camera systems for it, but I can see the appeal if shooting with that type of lens is primarily what one uses.
Nikon seems to have that long prime lens selection category pretty filled out. Some with the built in teleconverters. Sony is sleeping on that segment at their own peril.
p.8 #11 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
I’ve seen brand new A7RV on fm buy and sell greatly reduced. I pre ordered from B&H in November and paid full price.
On he wildlife I should have said Fast BIF that I shoot only with my A1. Sorry for the hyperboly.
p.8 #12 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
arbitrage wrote:
I still stand by that statement. Z9 is not good at seeing a distant, small in the frame subject and has a lot of issues initiating and holding a tracking lock over complicated backgrounds. But that doesn't mean the AF as a whole is not good. At least I didn't intend it to mean that.
And I mean most of the time I'm out (with any camera) trying to get subjects in situations that aren't over complicated backgrounds and that are as close as possible. But often being able to acquire a subject early when it is smaller in the frame allows a camera to track it as it approaches and then you can take the shots when it is big enough. Doing initial acquisition of a fast target when it is already fairly close and large in the frame is 10x more difficult for the operator to keep it in frame and for the camera to react quickly enough because the larger/closer subject moves through the FOV way faster than a more distant subject.
Nikon had this down with its final generation of DSLRs shot in Auto AF. Sony has this almost perfected (well, not really, they could always make it better) shot in Wide AF (no tracking). The thing I love about Sony is how easy it is for a new user to get shooting. Literally if you hand a Sony to someone, set it up in Wide AF, no tracking, AF Sensitivity to 1 and tell them to try and have the subject close to the centre of the frame when first engaging the AF, they will be blown away no matter what they are coming from. Only Nikon DSLRs came close to that functionality....Show more →
Again, not good relative to what? An A1, a D850, a D3, a Canon Rebel, a Coolpix? You seemed to say earlier that all of your comparisons in the post I quoted were relative to an A9ii. But your most recent statement, again, has no limiting principle. So, I don't know where the context begins and ends. Additionally, you now seem to say that Nikon DSLRs performed better in this specific context than their mirrorless offerings. Honestly, I'm still unclear what situations you're actually referencing. Is this specific to shooting swallows? Because, in a prior discussion we had, you said that the Z9 was on par with the A1 for basically everything but shooting swallows. Do you have a different opinion now? I'm not trying to interrogate you, but I do think it is helpful for everyone to tease out what the practical differences are in the systems. I still haven't moved to mirrorless. I'd prefer to stick with Nikon, but I'm not so invested that a system switch is impossible. I do think Nikon has the best lens ecosystem for what I shoot, but if I am not going to gain as much in AF functionality as I'd assumed, then perhaps I need to look more closely at Canon (which I think has a better lens ecosystem for me than Sony).
p.8 #13 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
The Nikon battery with the end cap is $347 here, but it's irrelevant since the grip does not provide any additional functionality on the A1.
Something that does provide additional functionality is an L-bracket; RRS charges $215 for an A1 bracket, but their Z9 monstrosity goes for $270 - if you can find one.
The L brackets for the A1 withe battery grip is still $230 from RRS. It was much higher 2 years ago when it ame out for earlier Sonys that took the VG-C4EM.
p.8 #14 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Z8 body looks great.
For birding, though, nothing beats Sony's 200-600mm which I use all the time with A7R4 and A9II. It's reasonably priced, super sharp, has good AF speed and costs <$2K new. Not everyone has a budget for a 600F4 which is also not a zoom and some of us want FL flexibility in the field.
Until Nikon comes out with an equivalent to 200-600 lens, I will not seriously consider Z8, but rather a used A1. I am not bothered by lower res EVF if (as reported) it's near real time, that's more important. Bird AF will continue to improve on Z8/Z9 via FW updates, that's another plus over Sony.
p.8 #15 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
The L brackets for the A1 withe battery grip is still $230 from RRS. It was much higher 2 years ago when it ame out for earlier Sonys that took the VG-C4EM.
But you don't need the grip version of the L-bracket for an A1... you're really clutching at straws trying to make up for your earlier mathematical blunder.
May 12, 2023 at 08:40 AM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.8 #16 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
NonDecaf wrote:
I work in industrial automation and deal with linear actuators on a daily basis. It's not wrong to say that VCMs are going to be the dominant tech going forward, but there is absolutely nothing revolutionary about VCMs in 2023, even as micromotors.
"revolutionary"? nobody made that claim, and it's not relevant to the discussion.
you'll be surprised to learn that nikon had vcm back in 2011:
why did nikon abandon their own cutting-edge tech for inferior stepper motors? because it's cheaper.
NonDecaf wrote:
No, Sony or whoever didn't "invent" them, so the sony fanboys need to calm down a bit
see above.
read to what nikon itself says about the tech:
"Nikon’s new Silky Swift Voice Coil Motor (VCM) uses magnets instead of gears to move the lens focus groups. This design simultaneously delivers higher initial speed, higher accuracy and the smoothest, most silent operation of any Nikon AF drive system. Additionally, vibration within the mechanism has been reduced with an innovative guide bar and minimal space between moving parts, allowing for maximum speed during autofocus."
NonDecaf wrote:
To put things in perspective For e.g. Tamron in their marketing literature about their linear motors boats a positional accuracy of 0.005mm and hard-disks have been doing a three-sigma of roughly 5nm for decades. 5nm is 0.000005mm.
those obsolete hard drives are moving tiny arms really short distances, vs. optical blocks that are measured in ounces and even pounds, so of course there are differences in the granularity of the steps.
i would have thought that was obvious.
May 12, 2023 at 08:41 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.8 #17 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
MarkG2 wrote:
Z8 body looks great.
For birding, though, nothing beats Sony's 200-600mm which I use all the time with A7R4 and A9II. It's reasonably priced, super sharp, has good AF speed and costs <$2K new. Not everyone has a budget for a 600F4 which is also not a zoom and some of us want FL flexibility in the field.
Until Nikon comes out with an equivalent to 200-600 lens, I will not seriously consider Z8, but rather a used A1. I am not bothered by lower res EVF if (as reported) it's near real time, that's more important. Bird AF will continue to improve on Z8/Z9 via FW updates, that's another plus over Sony.
Sorry, for me the Z8 plus the 400 f/4.5S plus the 1.4X TC I am pretty sure I will much prefer over my current A1 plus 200-600.
Let's look at weight and size. The Nikon combo is 2290g (that is camera, plus TC, plus lens) and the front of the lens is just 253mm from the lens mount. My A1 plus 200-600 G combo is 2852g (that is well over a 500g heavier) and it is 318mm from the lens mount (or 65mm longer). So the Nikon system is clearly a lot lighter and smaller now that there is a Z8.
Let's talk price (these are new prices from B & H).
The Nikon system is $3999 for the camera, $3,000 for the lens and $547 for the TC that is a total cost of $7,546 for the system.
The Sony system is $6,498 for the camera, and $1,898 (on sale right now) for the lens for a total cost of $8,396 for the system.
So the Nikon system is lighter, smaller, and cheaper. It also at 400mm has a stop faster aperture and if you look on the Nikon board can produce some pretty stellar images.
For me and what I shoot it isn't even close. I prefer the Nikon system here. Of course YMMV.
May 12, 2023 at 08:47 AM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.8 #18 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
groob wrote:
Tbc, I’m perfectly happy to concede that VCMs offer best-in-class performance. My point is that, practically speaking, one’s results are not going to vary much, if it all, when shooting with a telephoto that has a stepper motor or a SWM, instead of a VCM. Even assuming a VCM offers the best performance, the difference is going to be slight, and there will be a negligible effect on ultimate output.
you already proved that you don't even have any idea what focus motors are in your own lenses, so you don't have any basis for forming a valid opinion about how any of it works.
you are just out here trying to troll sony, and it's failing.
p.8 #19 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
hiepphotog wrote:
I like some features of the Z8, but unfortunately, I have not found any Nikkor lenses that I want to get. And it's just silly to buy the Z8 to use my Sony lenses with an adapter....
For me, I couldn't find any Nikkor lenses I wanted to get... literally. Some retailers told me their wait lists are already over a year long for some of the Z-mount pro telephoto lenses. The only option was to buy the old, obsolete F-mount glass and use adapters; I tried adapting Sony lenses, but the adapters are not reliable.
Nikon is hampered by supply chain issues, with no end in sight, so I decided to cut my losses and go back to a system where I could get the gear I needed and get back out shooting.
p.8 #20 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Steve Spencer wrote:
For me and what I shoot it isn't even close. I prefer the Nikon system here. Of course YMMV.
That's the key - it has to fit your use case. If the focal length works for you, I highly recommend the Z 400mm f4.5S - it's a great lens, and should be much more enjoyable to use on a camera body that weighs less than the Z9.
We have had them for decades in every industry, and on the consumer side famously in hard-disk heads (as dual-actuator systems with PZT). In fact they have historically been limited in use for low-torque applications (which is why you
