p.14 #1 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
1bwana1 wrote:
I don't count the TC as a lens. Just two ways of looking at it I guess. The other three are all 2.8 zooms. 17-28, 28-75, 70-200.
I also have very small primes for my Leica M11.
Yes, I could come up with a smaller kit from my lens collection by using primes. Even smaller with MF primes. But this kit is extremely capable, and flexible. My experience with it shows that i can get pretty much and shot I want when I am traveling with it.
Thank you. For general I agree a f/2,8 Trinity is great. Hope you like your Tamron’s. I actually enjoy the Sigma 16-28 and 28-70 for my travel kit and the GM 16-35, GM 24-70 II, and GM 70-200 II for my main kit. Right now though my son has made off with my 16-35 GM and I may never see it again. Will often add a prime as well.
May 13, 2023 at 03:11 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.14 #2 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
NonDecaf wrote:
No, I said they offer an advantage, not that they are superior in every aspect. The things that are going to be important from a design standpoint for consumer electronics - low-power, compactness etc will outweigh top-end performance. I gave the example of why some lenses are using two or four motors, because even the weaker performance is preferable to the other advantages. As an engineer, I can see a design being completely different if the priority is performance, reliability, or compactness. I personally would prefer a simple design with fewer moving parts.
the industry has traditionally used steppers in only the cheapest lenses, aka consumer grade, there are many examples of that... i wouldn't put a $6500 800pf lens in that class, but nikon certainly did when they put steppers in it... it's not clear to me why anyone would think that it's o.k. to do that, but whatever.
i'd rather support a company that understands that people who pay serious $$$ for a lens expect professional performance and a compact lightweight design, regardless of what they shoot, whether they get paid for it or not.
p.14 #3 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
I see that the Nikon people here have entirely different needs than most Sony people; that is they are looking for longer than 300mm but less than $10k. For any other cases, I don't imagine the Z8 and Nikon's current lens line-up would offer enough of an incentive to switch (and enough pressure for Sony). I surely wouldn't say no to a price drop in Sony land, or a few more major firmware updates. But to think the niche of birders/shooters who want longer than 300mm but less than $10k as enough for Sony to change anything in their pricing structure is unfound IMO.
Z8 is, at best, presenting Nikon's best effort to leapfrog Sony, but it only managed to do so on a few fronts compared to the previous gen. Sony (A1) and lagged on a few others. The A1 already got through its early adopter phase when people were willing to pay the full price to get theirs. The A1 is now sold on the used market at the same price (or slightly higher) than the Z8. So even harder to switch to Nikon. Maybe the Z7III with the current disruptive low pricing might change that.
p.14 #4 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
hiepphotog wrote:
…
Z8 is, at best, presenting Nikon's best effort to leapfrog Sony, but it only managed to do so on a few fronts compared to the previous gen. Sony (A1) and lagged on a few others. The A1 already got through its early adopter phase when people were willing to pay the full price to get theirs. The A1 is now sold on the used market at the same price (or slightly higher) than the Z8. So even harder to switch to Nikon. Maybe the Z7III with the current disruptive low pricing might change that.
Sony-bots are reduced to comparing the price of a used Sony to a new Nikon. Embarrassing.
I shoot Sony for what it’s worth. Came over long ago from Canon. The Z8 is a better value proposition than anything Sony has released. And I don’t just mean cameras. I mean anything. Ever.
p.14 #5 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
osv2 wrote:
the industry has traditionally used steppers in only the cheapest lenses, aka consumer grade, there are many examples of that... i wouldn't put a $6500 800pf lens in that class, but nikon certainly did when they put steppers in it... it's not clear to me why anyone would think that it's o.k. to do that, but whatever.
i'd rather support a company that understands that people who pay serious $$$ for a lens expect professional performance and a compact lightweight design, regardless of what they shoot, whether they get paid for it or not.
Who else is offering a better value for a similar product? I'm sure it's quite expensive to manufacture the PF lens elements. In any case, Nikon has directly answered this question.
Q: Why didn't this lens use the same motor as the NIKKOR Z 400mm f/2.8 TC VR S, but an STM motor?
A: The design concept of this lens is that amateurs can also use it for shooting, so we use a low-cost high-performance STM stepper motor. In addition, the focus group has been optimized from the design stage, allowing the STM stepper motor to fully demonstrate its performance.
p.14 #6 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
molson wrote:
Olympus OM-1 and 150-400mm f4.5+TC
But a high mpx ff body with a 400 4.5 Lens is a m43 killer. Instead od zooming you Crop with your camera. At shorter fl you get more mpx to Play with, at longer fl, well, you loose some pixels. However a TC can be adapted. Ok, you will not Reach 2000mm equivalent, but unless doing eye shots at few metres, If you need 2000mm you do something wrong.
And the Nikon setup is cheaper.
I wish Sony would make 400f4.5 copycat Lens. And several more.
Anyway if canon makes 200-500f4 TC it willcbe the holy grail and one Lens to do IT all.
p.14 #7 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
I think what Z8 offers which Sony currently does not have in its lineup is an affordable high-res stacked sensor cam. It's a similar case as when Canon's R5 was introduced, while it wasn't stacked, it offered a high-res general-use cam, where in Sony land you had to choose between A7, A7R or A9 lines.
Sony has A1 now, which ticks all the boxes, but it's significantly more expensive (new at least) and I still think it's better for action-oriented shooting (mainly due to 30 fps + AF) but as a general-use cam it's close to Z8. We'll have to wait to see if Sony responds with A9III in Z8's price range.
BTW, it's ridiculous it's impossible to have a nice discussion across brands here without trolls making it unreadable...
p.14 #8 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
What the Z8 has made me realize is just how large the margins must be on the A1.
I mean Nikon has to buy that custom designed stacked sensor from Sony Semi and can still cram it in and sell it for $4K.
Meanwhile Sony who makes all these sensors in house is selling the A1 (which is probably 90% of the parts of an A7IV which they sell for $2.5K) for $6.5K. Now maybe Sony Semi is so separated from Sony Consumer Electronics that they don't get any favourable pricing on the sensors but I'm sure they could work out a deal between friends
p.14 #9 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
True, but I think that the sensor in A1 have some new superior A/D converters that improve dynamic range. I seem to remember that it is the best amongst stacked sensor but maybe I’m wrong. Anyway that could mean that the sensor in A1 is much more expensive to produce when you add in the R&D expense they have to recover.
But whatever. Sony should release A9 III with the sensor from A1, axes the mechanical shutter and cripple hammer some video features + add the new stuff from A7r5 and call it a day. 🥳
arbitrage wrote:
What the Z8 has made me realize is just how large the margins must be on the A1.
I mean Nikon has to buy that custom designed stacked sensor from Sony Semi and can still cram it in and sell it for $4K.
Meanwhile Sony who makes all these sensors in house is selling the A1 (which is probably 90% of the parts of an A7IV which they sell for $2.5K) for $6.5K. Now maybe Sony Semi is so separated from Sony Consumer Electronics that they don't get any favourable pricing on the sensors but I'm sure they could work out a deal between friends...Show more →
p.14 #10 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
arbitrage wrote:
What the Z8 has made me realize is just how large the margins must be on the A1.
I mean Nikon has to buy that custom designed stacked sensor from Sony Semi and can still cram it in and sell it for $4K.
Meanwhile Sony who makes all these sensors in house is selling the A1 (which is probably 90% of the parts of an A7IV which they sell for $2.5K) for $6.5K. Now maybe Sony Semi is so separated from Sony Consumer Electronics that they don't get any favourable pricing on the sensors but I'm sure they could work out a deal between friends...Show more →
I have got the same idea when I have seen the price for Z8. So I mostly agree.
But on the other hand Nikon is more desperate to win back some market share now so that could explain acceptance of small margins.
Nikon can also make cameras cheaper while cashing on lenses while Sony cannot use that strategy as E-mount is being too open for that (evidence is markup on Z-mount Tarmon lenses).
p.14 #11 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Maybe, but I do believe there is a cost to put electronics in a smaller package. While the Z8 is smaller than the Z9, it's still quite a bit larger than the a1. Not saying it makes up the difference, but I'm sure it eats into it.
arbitrage wrote:
What the Z8 has made me realize is just how large the margins must be on the A1.
I mean Nikon has to buy that custom designed stacked sensor from Sony Semi and can still cram it in and sell it for $4K.
Meanwhile Sony who makes all these sensors in house is selling the A1 (which is probably 90% of the parts of an A7IV which they sell for $2.5K) for $6.5K. Now maybe Sony Semi is so separated from Sony Consumer Electronics that they don't get any favourable pricing on the sensors but I'm sure they could work out a deal between friends...Show more →
May 14, 2023 at 06:38 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.14 #12 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
NonDecaf wrote:
Who else is offering a better value for a similar product? I'm sure it's quite expensive to manufacture the PF lens elements. In any case, Nikon has directly answered this question.
In other words, linear motors are not always better. What motor makes sense depends on design goals and how the focus group operates. Simplistic statements like linear motors are always better are almost always wrong and they are in this specific instance despite the persistent misinformation provided by some on this forum.
May 14, 2023 at 06:43 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.14 #13 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
tsdevine wrote:
Maybe, but I do believe there is a cost to put electronics in a smaller package. While the Z8 is smaller than the Z9, it's still quite a bit larger than the a1. Not saying it makes up the difference, but I'm sure it eats into it.
I think you are right Tim that decreasing the size adds to the cost of the A1, and no doubt developing the robust AI that seems to be better than Nikon's AI adds to the cost too. At the same time many including myself with the help of a forum member here were able to get the A1 for $5,000 brand new and that was well over a year ago in my case. When Sony sells the A1 at full retail price they must be making a pretty healthy margin.
p.14 #14 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Companies will always try to keep margins high as the market will bear, as it's a lever to profit, and that's why competition is good.
We all know that companies generally don't reduce price, there has to be some external driving force.
Steve Spencer wrote:
I think you are right Tim that decreasing the size adds to the cost of the A1, and no doubt developing the robust AI that seems to be better than Nikon's AI adds to the cost too. At the same time many including myself with the help of a forum member here were able to get the A1 for $5,000 brand new and that was well over a year ago in my case. When Sony sells the A1 at full retail price they must be making a pretty healthy margin.
May 14, 2023 at 07:11 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.14 #15 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Stoffer wrote:
True, but I think that the sensor in A1 have some new superior A/D converters that improve dynamic range. I seem to remember that it is the best amongst stacked sensor but maybe I’m wrong. Anyway that could mean that the sensor in A1 is much more expensive to produce when you add in the R&D expense they have to recover.
But whatever. Sony should release A9 III with the sensor from A1, axes the mechanical shutter and cripple hammer some video features + add the new stuff from A7r5 and call it a day. 🥳
The A1 and the Z9 have very similar dynamic range (DR) at their lowest ISO 11.27 vs 11.34 stops as measured by photons to photos. At higher ISO where the dual gain kicks in Sony has about a third of a stop advantage. So an advantage for the Sony sensor, but a small one. See the graph of DR by ISO here:
p.14 #16 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
tsdevine wrote:
Companies will always try to keep margins high as the market will bear, as it's a lever to profit, and that's why competition is good.
We all know that companies generally don't reduce price, there has to be some external driving force.
Yep, and it seemed like plenty of people opened their wallets and bought the A1 at its price point. In general, it’s the organization that has little to compete on than price that comes out with lower priced products. They have no choice.
p.14 #17 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
I guess it was cheaper for Nikon to use same tech as z9 than to make new sensor, order it at fab. In terms of rnd cost is also minimal. Nice move, they probably had to make.
p.14 #18 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
I don't know this for certain, but I think Sony achieves their live feed and AF differently than the others based on a much faster chip and associated circuitry. Two things lead me to this hypothesis. First in an article about the A1 chip the engineer said it scanned just faster than 1/250 of a second and he said that was necessary so the screen could update on one scan and the AF could read on the next scan. Based on some comments I've read about the Z9 (and I think the R3, but I can't remember), changing the exposure or switching into APSC mode affects how the camera focuses which seems to support the true dual stream nature of the feed. Most of my reading and experience suggests that the A1 AF does not benefit from exposure changes or switching to APSC which supports the high speed separate feeds. I don't know that this creates a substantial performance difference, but it does appear to be a real technical difference.
May 14, 2023 at 08:06 AM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.14 #19 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
NonDecaf wrote:
Who else is offering a better value for a similar product? I'm sure it's quite expensive to manufacture the PF lens elements. In any case, Nikon has directly answered this question.
"quite expensive to manufacture the pf lens element" is an unsubstantiated claim, that is not logical when compared to cheap canon do lenses like the 800/11 for $899, that also use stepper motors.
the reality is that nikon is seriously overcharging for the 800pf, and once again i'll repeat that $6500 is pro-grade pricing, the lens should have pro-grade focus motors in it.
nikon states that vcm is the best, so that's not arguable, and given that sony puts up to four linear voice coil af motors in much cheaper lenses, the tech is not that expensive.
"The Silky Swift VCM is utilized for NIKKOR Z lenses as an AF drive motor. This system simultaneously achieves higher speed, higher accuracy and quieter operation. Each of these factors far surpasses conventional systems, and as for the “quietness” specifically, drive sound is intensively suppressed to an almost-silent level. Even heavy lenses can be controlled accurately at high speed, with minimal noise or vibration, enabling users to reliably capture sharply focused images. Extremely quiet AF operation is specifically advantageous for shooting in places where silence is required and for video recording."
May 14, 2023 at 08:58 AM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.14 #20 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
tsdevine wrote:
Maybe, but I do believe there is a cost to put electronics in a smaller package. While the Z8 is smaller than the Z9, it's still quite a bit larger than the a1. Not saying it makes up the difference, but I'm sure it eats into it.
yes, going smaller costs more and the a1 is a much better engineered camera, with the first carbon fiber shutter ever put in a camera, carbon heat sink on the sensor, etc.
the a1 has significantly better battery life than the z8/z9; power efficiency is expensive to implement, the a1 internal electronics including the sensor are most likely based in part on better node sizing, which increases engineering and manufacturing costs.
