p.15 #1 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Innovation Tax
arbitrage wrote:
What the Z8 has made me realize is just how large the margins must be on the A1.
I mean Nikon has to buy that custom designed stacked sensor from Sony Semi and can still cram it in and sell it for $4K.
Meanwhile Sony who makes all these sensors in house is selling the A1 (which is probably 90% of the parts of an A7IV which they sell for $2.5K) for $6.5K. Now maybe Sony Semi is so separated from Sony Consumer Electronics that they don't get any favourable pricing on the sensors but I'm sure they could work out a deal between friends...Show more →
p.15 #2 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
osv2 wrote:
"quite expensive to manufacture the pf lens element" is an unsubstantiated claim, that is not logical when compared to cheap canon do lenses like the 800/11 for $899, that also use stepper motors.
the reality is that nikon is seriously overcharging for the 800pf, and once again i'll repeat that $6500 is pro-grade pricing, the lens should have pro-grade focus motors in it.
nikon states that vcm is the best, so that's not arguable, and given that sony puts up to four linear voice coil af motors in much cheaper lenses, the tech is not that expensive.
"The Silky Swift VCM is utilized for NIKKOR Z lenses as an AF drive motor. This system simultaneously achieves higher speed, higher accuracy and quieter operation. Each of these factors far surpasses conventional systems, and as for the “quietness” specifically, drive sound is intensively suppressed to an almost-silent level. Even heavy lenses can be controlled accurately at high speed, with minimal noise or vibration, enabling users to reliably capture sharply focused images. Extremely quiet AF operation is specifically advantageous for shooting in places where silence is required and for video recording." ...Show more →
Overcharging compared to what? The literal zero competitive lenses in existence?
May 14, 2023 at 10:10 AM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.15 #3 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
those are smartphone cis numbers but it's the trending we care about, as a potential explanation for why z8/z9 sucks down power like a sailor on shore leave.
the progression of technology... the latest sony smartphone, announced earlier this week: "Due to the combination of the low-light performance, which is approximately double compared to the previous modelii and the high-speed multi frame overlay procession technology of the Xperia 1 V, it is possible to shoot a noise resistant photo with a wider dynamic range that is equivalent to a full-frame camera."
May 14, 2023 at 10:32 AM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.15 #4 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Jesse Evans wrote:
Overcharging compared to what? The literal zero competitive lenses in existence?
what part of 800/11 was unclear? the point was that it's similar technology, what would you call nikon charging $5600 more for an f/4.5 aperture?
p.15 #5 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
nandadevieast wrote:
Innovation Tax
That is true. First to market can charge whatever they feel can optimize their profits. Last to market needs to play the underpricing game. Happens in every industry.
p.15 #6 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
osv2 wrote:
what part of 800/11 was unclear? the point was that it's similar technology, what would you call nikon charging $5600 more for an f/4.5 aperture?
What coatings and optics are in the both of them? What about weather sealing? VR vs IS stats? f6.4 vs F11 isn't a huge difference? I beg to differ. How about TC usage between the two?
The difference in lens construction? Memory recalls? Etc, etc...
Not to take away from the Canon 800mm but they aren't remotely the same except for being 800mm.
p.15 #7 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
chez wrote:
Yep, and it seemed like plenty of people opened their wallets and bought the A1 at its price point.
And those that did pay full price for the A1 have been able to enjoy using the best autofocusing camera on the planet for a couple of years now, and their investment is still sound since Nikon has now fallen short twice in trying to match it, and Canon still seems to be focusing more on taking selfies.
p.15 #8 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
osv2 wrote:
what part of 800/11 was unclear? the point was that it's similar technology, what would you call nikon charging $5600 more for an f/4.5 aperture?
In what way is an 800/6.3 comparable to an 800/11?
May 14, 2023 at 11:48 AM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.15 #9 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Tyr-Sog wrote:
What coatings and optics are in the both of them? What about weather sealing? VR vs IS stats? f6.4 vs F11 isn't a huge difference? I beg to differ. How about TC usage between the two?
The difference in lens construction? Memory recalls? Etc, etc...
Not to take away from the Canon 800mm but they aren't remotely the same except for being 800mm.
no, they both use the same cheap focus motor technology and a form of diffractive optics, this has been argued before, nikon owners always claim that what nikon does is somehow special: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4647368
May 14, 2023 at 12:03 PM
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p.15 #10 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Jesse Evans wrote:
In what way is an 800/6.3 comparable to an 800/11?
that's not an answer to the question that was posted.
p.15 #11 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
osv2 wrote:
no, they both use the same cheap focus motor technology and a form of diffractive optics, this has been argued before, nikon owners always claim that what nikon does is somehow special: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4647368
You're arguing the cost of the lens as a whole. Answer my questions. I'll quickly answer it for you because you won't do the comparison because you know it already.
I see just about all of Nikons top line technology added to the Z800mm, just about all of it. Hence the premium cost. I see nothing of the sort on Canons website stating the same for the rf800. None of Canons top technology drifts down to this 800, and it shows. If it did you can bet it would be $6500 lens.
As far as the argument of f11 vs f6.3. That deference is the ability of shooting in failing light conditions or packing up and going home. the 6.3 will give you a lot more time to get quality shots, f11 not so much. Even when I add my 2xtc to my 300 2.8(so f5.6 with tc) I start to have to be mindful of lighting when shooting at my preferred F7.1 for ultimate sharpness. Even on a lowlight beast like the D4. Start adding TC's to these two lenses and it's a whole different game I'm betting.
p.15 #13 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
osv2 wrote:
that's not an answer to the question that was posted.
~RF600mm F4 L IS USM - $12,999.00
~NIKKOR Z 600mm f/4 TC VR S - $15,499.95
Ok, so Nikons and Canons top dogs...
Now make a list of how many of Nikons "pro-grade" technologies and optical formulas
from the Z600 make its way down to the Z800. They share nearly all of them.
Now do the same with the RF600 and the RF800. There's nothing there for the RF800.
Nothing I can see anyways on Canons spec sheet.
What is it exactly you are comparing The Z800 at $6500 is 1/2 the cost of Canons prograde 600mm
and well over 2 times cheaper the Nikons prograde 600mm yet sharing most of Nikons 600mm prograde features.
Sounds like one hell of a bargain all things considering.
p.15 #14 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
osv2 wrote:
"quite expensive to manufacture the pf lens element" is an unsubstantiated claim, that is not logical when compared to cheap canon do lenses like the 800/11 for $899, that also use stepper motors.
the reality is that nikon is seriously overcharging for the 800pf, and once again i'll repeat that $6500 is pro-grade pricing, the lens should have pro-grade focus motors in it.
nikon states that vcm is the best, so that's not arguable, and given that sony puts up to four linear voice coil af motors in much cheaper lenses, the tech is not that expensive.
"The Silky Swift VCM is utilized for NIKKOR Z lenses as an AF drive motor. This system simultaneously achieves higher speed, higher accuracy and quieter operation. Each of these factors far surpasses conventional systems, and as for the “quietness” specifically, drive sound is intensively suppressed to an almost-silent level. Even heavy lenses can be controlled accurately at high speed, with minimal noise or vibration, enabling users to reliably capture sharply focused images. Extremely quiet AF operation is specifically advantageous for shooting in places where silence is required and for video recording." ...Show more →
You can manufacture them in a variety of ways, but traditionally such elements are obtained by cutting fine saw-tooth shaped concentric micro-grooves (tens of thousands of them per mm) in optical materials using a diamond cutting tool. I'd be willing to bet that the number of suppliers for such type of equipment in the world is in the single digits. This is not to mention other process issues like controlling the temperature, very tight tolerances for the groove shape (taking into account the inherent surface roughness itself), particulate matter from the cutting or environment getting trapped in those grooves, alignment of those concentric grooves, etc. To me, it is rather easy to see why this would be an expensive part to manufacture. Heck, I'd be worried that even micro-vibrations in and around the manufacturing plant from other equipment will ruin a batch. I wonder what happens when there is an earthquake somewhere in Japan!
May 14, 2023 at 01:25 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.15 #15 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Tyr-Sog wrote:
You're arguing the cost of the lens as a whole.
true, but i also gave specific examples, like the same cheap stepper motors that both lenses use, and you refuse to address it.
Tyr-Sog wrote:
I see just about all of Nikons top line technology added to the Z800mm, just about all of it.
and where do the junky focus motors fit into that? it contradicts whatever you are saying, which i'm not sure about because you don't list specifics, just vague marketing claims from nikon.
i settled it for myself with the fe200-600 at 840mm, it's a longer focal length and that 800pf one-stop advantage costs nearly $4k more, plus i lose the flexibility of a zoom.
i can't shoot sports video with an 800mm prime, it's a one-trick pony that has a really small niche market, so it's hardly surprising that no other company is offering something so expensive.
May 14, 2023 at 01:28 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.15 #16 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
molson wrote:
The Nikon version uses diffractive optics, while the Canon version uses diffraction optics...
lol, exactly
"all of Nikons top line technology" means you are getting the secret decoder ring with it, you are now part of the club
May 14, 2023 at 01:30 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.15 #17 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
NonDecaf wrote:
You can manufacture them in a variety of ways, but traditionally such elements are obtained by cutting fine saw-tooth shaped concentric micro-grooves (tens of thousands of them per mm) in optical materials using a diamond cutting tool. I'd be willing to bet that the number of suppliers for such type of equipment in the world is in the single digits. This is not to mention other process issues like controlling the temperature, very tight tolerances for the groove shape (taking into account the inherent surface roughness itself), particulate matter from the cutting or environment getting trapped in those grooves, alignment of those concentric grooves, etc. To me, it is rather easy to see why this would be an expensive part to manufacture. Heck, I'd be worried that even micro-vibrations in and around the manufacturing plant from other equipment will ruin a batch. I wonder what happens when there is an earthquake somewhere in Japan! ...Show more →
i wonder what the reject rate on that is.
whatever magic they are doing works, that lens takes a sharp photo.
p.15 #18 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
osv2 wrote:
true, but i also gave specific examples, like the same cheap stepper motors that both lenses use, and you refuse to address it.
and where do the junky focus motors fit into that? it contradicts whatever you are saying, which i'm not sure about because you don't list specifics, just vague marketing claims from nikon.
i settled it for myself with the fe200-600 at 840mm, it's a longer focal length and that 800pf one-stop advantage costs nearly $4k more, plus i lose the flexibility of a zoom.
i can't shoot sports video with an 800mm prime, it's a one-trick pony that has a really small niche market, so it's hardly surprising that no other company is offering something so expensive.
Contradicting? I gave you an example where it fits in. It's $6500 and not $15,000+.
It's price falls in line with the tech that trickled down from the Z600. Most of it.
If the RF800 had most of Canons RF600 coatings, formulas, and Tech it would be more than $1000.
Fact is, nothing does.
btw, junky AF? Have you been over at the dedicated Z800 forum? Doesn't seem to be struggling with Af the least bit.
Doesn't seem to be a shortage in sales either.
Now you are off comparing who knows what to another company and a zoom lens. ok lol.
p.15 #19 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
arbitrage wrote:
What the Z8 has made me realize is just how large the margins must be on the A1. I mean Nikon has to buy that custom designed stacked sensor from Sony Semi and can still cram it in and sell it for $4K.
Given Nikon's current market position, their closed lens mount and high lens prices, they might be selling the Z8 with small margin or even loss, hoping to recover mid term via lens sales.
May 14, 2023 at 02:21 PM
berimbolo Offline • • • [X]
p.15 #20 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
I think it works out to about the same if you compare the cost of a z8 + 600mm w/TC F4 vs Sony A1 + 600mm F4.
Not that it actually matters as this discussion is no longer about anything other than people arguing over brands.
The Z800 at $6500 is 1/2 the cost of Canons prograde 600mm