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Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)

  
 
rscheffler
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p.17 #1 · p.17 #1 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


mcbroomf wrote:
I've kept Denoise dngs for the time bring but I won't for files that are exported to jpgs and only destined for the web. For print files I keep psbs or single layer tiffs so I will probably kill the dngs for those.

I've only used a setting higher than 50 for abstracts where I've wanted all noise gone and kind of looking for a plastic effect. I keep a little noise and/or add some texture. I zero out all details sliders before denoise and (re)sharpen after denoise. I think I may test grain instead of or with texture.


Thanks. The examples I posted were the first tests before I bothered reading through much of this thread, so could definitely be improved. I tried a couple ISO 3200 files and thought around 40% looked good. It kept some grain texture similar to an ISO 200 file while fine details were noticeably better than when processed with traditional NR. I'll probably do my adjustments to the original files as usual, save those settings to the XMP sidecars, pick out the 'problem' images (above ISO 3200), zero sharpening settings for those, run Denoise, stack with the originals, apply sharpening as desired, and perhaps also play with texture/clarity/dehaze, etc. This way the bulk of the adjustments will be saved with the XMPs should I decide to discard the Denoise DNGs and later need to revisit.

---------------------------------------------

rdeloe wrote:
Gotta love the University of Waterloo PhD robes and hat!


There's a decent UW contingent in leadership roles at Mac. Provost, deans of science and business and other faculty. The hat's cool, except it results in shaded eyes when the person is speaking at the podium, unless they look up, which they often don't, in order to avoid the bright spotlights in the eyes, of course. Not great for photos.



Jun 18, 2023 at 09:26 PM
rscheffler
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p.17 #2 · p.17 #2 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


Just processed a job that was shot indoors available light in ISOs ranging from 800 to 6400 on Canon R6 and R6II (20 & 24MP) cameras. Rather than custom tweak based on ISO, I just set Denoise to 40% and had it batch process all the images which I'd already corrected for color and tonality in LR. Prior to the batch process, I zeroed out sharpening.

On my pokey 14" 2021 M1 Pro MBP with only 16GB RAM, it took about 25 seconds per file.

Even with the ISO 6400 Denoise versions, I could apply sharpening I would normally use for lower ISO files - 40/0.7/40/10, resulting in minimal very fine grain.

My plan was to pull the Denoise DNGs from the job's catalog and discard them before archiving. But before I did that, I ran them through DNG converter with lossy compression to see what would happen...

Well, to my surprise, the ~90-110MB Denoise DNGs compressed down to around 7-10MB and those to which I had applied AI masks, retained them when imported back into LR. As well as retaining all edit settings.

I haven't explored it more than superficially, but I exported a jpeg of a high ISO instance of one of these lossy compressed Denoise DNGs and compared it against a jpeg from the same image but the original Denoise DNG. The jpeg from the lossy compressed version was a larger compressed file size and looked ever so slightly grainier, which implied there were some differences. But overall visually, I could not tell without pixel peeping at 200%. Overall color and tonality looked identical. Mind you, the image didn't contain any super saturated colors, etc.

So what's the point? For files I'll probably never revisit, it's at least an option to save the 'effort' of outputting Denoise versions without having to save the original DNGs that are ~3x larger than the original raw files out of the cameras, just in case I actually do need to reprocess them.

I'm posting this here more or less just to say it can be done. Whether anyone will want to, will be up to them.

Related, I use DNG Converter to lossy compress all raw outtakes from shoots to save space, because I virtually never revisit those images (I keep them "just in case" there is a need). I brought one such lossy converted DNG into LR and Denoise will not recognize it, so that's a slight downside. One option would be to run all outtakes through Denoise and then lossy convert them, but probably not worth the effort.



Jun 19, 2023 at 04:18 PM
lsquare
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p.17 #3 · p.17 #3 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


As I'm upgrading my PC, I need to understand a few things. It seems like the Denoise feature used up a lot of space since it generates a new DNG file. I wish there was a way where it just stores the edit as metadata like the other LRC features. So does that mean Denoise uses a lot of storage space if I have a library? If so, I might have to look at a Windows setup since SSD prices are much more affordable than Apple. In the last, I was able to just keep my photos on an HDD while using an SSD as a boot drive. None of the LRC edits utilize a lot of storage space. Is my understanding correct?


Jun 23, 2023 at 09:55 AM
mcbroomf
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p.17 #4 · p.17 #4 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


Do you mean if you keep your images on the internal SSD of your Mac storage will go higher? If so then yes, if you have a lot of noisy images to process each new DNG file will be 4x the size of the raw I think. The catalog won't get much larger though (the .lrcat file) so you can keep that on your SSD and put images on an external drive, SSD or HDD. I do this on my Macbook Pro.


Jun 23, 2023 at 11:40 AM
Erictator
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p.17 #5 · p.17 #5 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


lsquare wrote:
As I'm upgrading my PC, I need to understand a few things. It seems like the Denoise feature used up a lot of space since it generates a new DNG file. I wish there was a way where it just stores the edit as metadata like the other LRC features. So does that mean Denoise uses a lot of storage space if I have a library? If so, I might have to look at a Windows setup since SSD prices are much more affordable than Apple. In the last, I was able to just keep my photos on an HDD
...Show more

Umm... Why not just get a Thunderbolt/USB external SSD drive for the Apple? Once your done with PP, dump the finished and long term storage stuff there. They are dirt cheap and plenty fast these days. If you are used to Apple IOS, and with the new Apple's being so fast right out of the box with LR AI, I would think an external drive would be a simple solution for long term storage.

And if you wanted get a safety net while your at it, get something like an IDrive personal account... like for $59 a year, you can backup 5TB of data... so I would backup all your finished product minimum, and RAW/Dng if you feel its necessary. Just a thought.

Eric



Jun 23, 2023 at 11:58 AM
mcbroomf
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p.17 #6 · p.17 #6 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


ArtisRight posted a new video, adding an M2 Studio Ultra with 128GB RAM to his earlier tests. Several of us had asked if he might add an Adobe Denoise test and he has done this using a 36MP Nikon file. For the geeks amongst us I added his data on a separate section below the testing Jeff and I did (mainly Jeff). I also added some calculated times for the GPU options missing in our data, using the same efficiency from the actual data for that CPU option.
EDIT : He added a 2nd new video with testing of his 13" and 15" Macbook Air's so I added them. Both M2 CPU with 10 GPU cores

The GPU drives the Denoise time in both tables except for a slower number from the M1 Studio Ultra. If the results from these 2 machines were in line with the others they would have given times of ~15 seconds vs the 20 that both delivered. No explanation for this, they were the only 64 GPU core devices tested (Art's was 48 GPU cores).

MAC with calc and air by Mike Broomfield, on Flickr

Here is Art's new video. Skip to 9 mins or so for the full test data.





Jun 23, 2023 at 12:03 PM
rscheffler
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p.17 #7 · p.17 #7 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


lsquare wrote:
As I'm upgrading my PC, I need to understand a few things. It seems like the Denoise feature used up a lot of space since it generates a new DNG file. I wish there was a way where it just stores the edit as metadata like the other LRC features. So does that mean Denoise uses a lot of storage space if I have a library? If so, I might have to look at a Windows setup since SSD prices are much more affordable than Apple. In the last, I was able to just keep my photos on an HDD
...Show more

The DNG created by Denoise resides wherever the file it was created from resides. It's not in the actual LR catalog/database (at least in my case because I only ever have LR import images by keeping them in the original locations).

I agree with other suggestions to look into building your own external SSD storage. In my case I bought a Western Digital SN850X 2TB NVME SSD from B&H for ~$140 and put it in a $30 Sabrent USB-3 tool-less NVME enclosure. It's 'only' 10Gbs transfer speed (the enclosure is the bottleneck), but that translates into consistent and stable ~1GB/s read/write speed, which is plenty fast enough for photo editing.

If you don't like the thought of the extra storage consumed by the Denoise DNG, you have a few workflow options. You could make all adjustments to an original raw file, save those settings to the accompanying XMP, zero out sharpening, run Denoise, apply suitable sharpening to the DNG and output to your preferred output format. After this, delete the DNG. Or, start by creating the Denoise DNG, apply all your adjustments to it, copy/paste those to the original raw file, save the adjustments metadata to the XMP sidecar and delete the Denoise DNG after final export. I also discovered that the Denoise DNG can be run through Adobe's DNG Converter with lossy compression. This knocks down the compressed file size about 10x. In my case, 24MP Canon CR3 files translate into ~90-110MB Denoise DNGs. Run through DNG Converter reduces these to ~10MB on average. Preliminary tests importing compressed Denoise DNGs into LR and outputting with the same settings as the original Denoise DNGs suggests the compressed DNGs result in a slightly noisier file. I'm not really sure there's a point to keeping the Denoise DNG, or compressing it, because it can always be recreated in LR relatively quickly if it's needed again. In your case, I'd just make sure to copy all edits to the original raw files before deleting Denoise DNGs.



Jun 23, 2023 at 11:03 PM
jrsforums
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p.17 #8 · p.17 #8 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


mcbroomf wrote:
I don't pretend to know much about gaming as I don't play any, so I've not followed GPU specs much. No video editing either. But for Adobe Denoise Eric Chan has said that the AI uses Tensor cores in the Nvidia GPU, and while the Ti version has only 8GB RAM it has an additional 40 Tensor cores; 152 vs 112 for the RTX 3060. This may be where the additional performance is coming from. Unfortunately no-one has run the A7R3 file through the 3060 Ti to compare it to the 37 secs or we are getting from the 3060.

The
...Show more

I would question the use of ‘actual’ times for relative tensor core (and CUDA cores, clock speed, bandwidth) comparisons. These are not identical systems in architecture or I/O. I suspect the Adobe estimate times would be a greater indicator. For 3080 vs 3080 Ti the estimate delta is 15/10. The 4070’s were 15/15, but had significantly different CPUs



Jun 23, 2023 at 11:11 PM
mcbroomf
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p.17 #9 · p.17 #9 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


jrsforums wrote:
I would question the use of ‘actual’ times for relative tensor core (and CUDA cores, clock speed, bandwidth) comparisons. These are not identical systems in architecture or I/O. I suspect the Adobe estimate times would be a greater indicator. For 3080 vs 3080 Ti the estimate delta is 15/10. The 4070’s were 15/15, but had significantly different CPUs


Yes, I initially started the table for Nvidia with clock speed and memory as well but quickly realized it was going to be a Herculean test to find the data let alone keep it up to date. The Mac table is simple by comparison with times correlating quite well with the GPU cores.




Jun 24, 2023 at 03:22 AM
Bruce n Philly
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p.17 #10 · p.17 #10 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


I agree, the only thing that matters is processing time and what card did it.

The tech is cool but it is just a tool.

Peace
Bruce in Philly



Jun 25, 2023 at 09:00 AM
 


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FrankA373
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p.17 #11 · p.17 #11 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


Is it possible to run LRC Denoise and then send the created dng to Topaz AI for sharpening and then topaz send their dng back to LRC for final processing?


Jun 25, 2023 at 02:35 PM
mcbroomf
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p.17 #12 · p.17 #12 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


FrankA373 wrote:
Is it possible to run LRC Denoise and then send the created dng to Topaz AI for sharpening and then topaz send their dng back to LRC for final processing?


Yes. You choose between Edit a Copy and Overwrite Selected File when you transfer to Topaz




Jun 26, 2023 at 05:38 AM
rscheffler
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p.17 #13 · p.17 #13 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


@FrankA373 Not sure if you've tried Denoise yet, but noise reduction is combined with the Raw Details feature, which sharpens the image.

I have not used Topaz, so not sure what it does better with regard to sharpening. I found I can apply stronger, but finer sharpening in LRC after the Denoise treatment (with LRC sharpening at zero prior to Denoise). Of course you should test this to determine the necessary adjustments to your typical sharpening routines and what, if any benefit you'll gain from additional sharpening in Topaz.



Jun 26, 2023 at 01:58 PM
FrankA373
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p.17 #14 · p.17 #14 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


Thanks for the responses. I should put a little more detail in my question. Topaz AI does a great job on motion blur and on the few occasions if i need it I want to pass it there for that. LRC is not there yet for motion blur.


Jun 26, 2023 at 04:10 PM
Zenon Char
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p.17 #15 · p.17 #15 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


FrankA373 wrote:
Thanks for the responses. I should put a little more detail in my question. Topaz AI does a great job on motion blur and on the few occasions if i need it I want to pass it there for that. LRC is not there yet for motion blur.


I had both Topaz Photo and Sharpen AI. Since I won't be renewing Photo AI I took it off my OS. When I need to correct motion blur I use Sharpen AI but I can only open it as a TIFF, PSD or Jpeg. I open it as a TIFF. For that app you have to use the "Edit In" method.

Photo AI has two methods. Edit In and Plug-in Extras. If using Edit In you can still only open as a TIFF, PSD or Jpeg - I think. It's been a while. When I did use the Plug-in Extras method it opened as a RAW file and saved back into LrC as a DNG.

Since the release of Adobe Denoise AI I never really experimented with Photo AI. So you can use the Plug-in Extras method on a DNG file and it will open as a DNG in Photo AI?



Jun 27, 2023 at 05:59 AM
Bruce n Philly
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p.17 #16 · p.17 #16 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


BTW, Topaz Sharpen AI does a nice job denoising... so much so, that when I use Sharpen AI and I have only slight noise, I make sure I have LR sharpening at 0 (of course), but also any denoising tuned all the way off. And I don't bother with Topaz Denoise AI or the new LR denoise.

The type of noise I am talking about, is what you get say with my R5, a blue sky, at 800 ISO, and a deep crop. You can see some dustiness in that sky. Topaz Sharpen AI takes it right out perfectly.

This denoising in Sharpen AI happens even if you have the "Supress Noise" slider all the way off. It works really well and leaves no "creaminess". Actually it is excellent.

Peace
Bruce in Philly



Jun 27, 2023 at 09:55 AM
Bruce n Philly
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p.17 #17 · p.17 #17 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


If you are thinking about upgrading your graphics card to take advantage of LR Denoise, you probably already know that reviewers are really panning Nvidia's pricing of these newer cards. I build my own machines and never saw such negative talk about Nvidia from mainstream reviewers.

I don't know what this all means, but I am going to wait to buy a new card for two reasons 1) Topaz denoise AI is really fabulous, and 2) These Nvidia cards are really expensive... i think they will drop in price... maybe?

Anywho....

Peace
Bruce in Philly

Beginning of vid summs up feelings about Nvidia right now.

https://youtu.be/O0srjKOOR4g



Jun 28, 2023 at 05:35 PM
exdeejjjaaaa
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p.17 #18 · p.17 #18 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


jhapeman wrote:
What are you doing in the batch conversion? In my experience Adobe seems very slow on the DNG creation side.


what do you think ? I am simply creating DNG files from that same A7R4 example and doing this on 40 files in a row to average time and exclude any human error ( note that DxO PhotoLab gain extra efficiency that way as it can start batch work using multiple - user controlled number - processes behind the same single UI-user facing instance ) ... and as we see the lowly 4070 ( 4090 -> 4080 -> 4070Ti -> 4070 ... 4th from the top ) is pretty on par with M2 Ultra and $ per performance-wise kicks the @$$



Jul 01, 2023 at 08:10 AM
jhapeman
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p.17 #19 · p.17 #19 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


I just recently got an Nvidia RTX 4090 GPU for another 3D rendering box I was building for my business and ran some tests to compare. It's the fastest to date, at just under 11s to process the standard A7RIV image used for the other computers. That compares to 14s for an RTX 4080, just over 13s for an M2 Ultra with 76 GPU cores and 20s for an RTX 4070 or an M1 Ultra with 64 GPU cores.

Related to this, the PC I built was specced almost identically to an M2 Ultra. I don't use the cheapest parts available; I use the best quality and with solid warranties, so the PCs I build are rock-solid stable and last for years--just like my Macs do. I also like a nice-looking compact case, not a cheap box. Bottom line, for a top of the line Intel Core i9-13900K 24-core processor, matching 64GB of RAM and 4TB of storage, Nvidia RTX 4080 to match the GPU performance--the home-built PC is a whopping $229 cheaper. That's it. My time to assemble it was worth a lot more than. The only reason I didn't buy a pre-built HP or Lenovo, is that their PCs with the 4090 are gaming boxes, and don't have some of the other features I wanted like Thunderbolt (I used the Asus ProArt Creator board to get 2 TB4 ports).

At the end of the day, the Mac has more TB ports (6 vs 2) is much more compact and quiet (and yes, I got all very quiet fans, etc. for the PC) but it also uses less than 1/3 of the power.

Every time I've done this over the last 15+ years the prices end up being very similar when you actually spec out similar quality goods. The one new thing is that with Apple Silicon for the first time in ages I have a GPU that can compete toe to toe with the top of the line Nvidia cards. No, not for gaming, but that's not what I do, and for everything else it's right up there.



Aug 30, 2023 at 03:50 PM
Kaj E
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p.17 #20 · p.17 #20 · Lightroom Classic AI Denoise (12.3)


As this old thread has been revived, I decided to post my new laptop result. My Dell Precision 7780 with a Nvidia RTX 4000 Ada generation laptop GPU does the reference A7RIV file AI denoising in ACR in 16 sec after update to a new driver. 18 sec before the driver update.


Aug 30, 2023 at 08:41 PM
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