p.3 #2 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
joakim wrote:
But how large is the Sony market really, I know Sony sells so much more cameras than Leica does but how many of those buyers are interested in using manual focus lenses? I have no idea myself but i assume there is a pretty large majority of Sony (and Canon and Nikon for that matter) shooters that only uses AF lenses and would never consider buying something else.
Ah well, this is very off topic but still interesting
Some people here with connections in Japan have reported that at one point the 2/65 Apo Lanthar in e Mount was Cosinas best selling lens in any mount, and another E mount lens was their second best seller. But sales don’t seem to be their primary driver. Voigtländer lenses are a hobby for Mr K.
p.3 #3 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
philip_pj wrote:
'of course we will adapt it to E'
Who is this we, brother? As they burn credibility, their looming problem is that (i) the kind of user who is interested in 'adapting' specialty manual focus lenses to Sony et al is also (ii) the kind of buyer who is extremely fussy, being seriously concerned about ensuring that the said lenses work as well or better than on their native target M mount. Speaking here of non-dual users of M and E.
It took a few nanoseconds to reject the idea of buying the latest potential adapter lens from them for use on Sony cameras - the Vintage Ultron 28/2, courtesy of Fred's June 11 review. Of course, one could gather cobwebs waiting for the third Sony-only Voigtlander to arrive, after 2017/2018's pair of macros.
They sure know what their game is, but now so do we - 'if it can't be made for Leica, we won't make it'. Between that and their refusal to produce non-macro lenses longer than 50mm (they have just one, the M friendly 75/1.5), it's pretty clear now. They are moving quickly into the Zeiss dustbin of history with respect to Sony use, courtesy of their Leica-first design intentions and 50mm-or-wider philosophy, some would say obsession. ...Show more →
One could say: so what! It's their decision and the owner/CEO apparently has been one to do whatever he wants, whether logical to others, or not.
One could argue that focusing on excellent VM glass optimized for Leica is very smart because it exploits the one area in which Leica is very weak: price/performance ratio. Though optical performance is compromised, those can still be adapted to other mirrorless systems and provide other benefits that some value. But probably not pixelpeepers (I would often include myself in that category). Yes, the Leica M market is infinitesimal compared to mainstream MILC, but as others have questioned, how many MILC buyers really want a native mount manual focus-only experience? Especially at longer focal lengths where AF has a significant advantage (this assumes Cosina doesn't have the tech/capability to develop AF lenses). Zeiss already addressed this niche and apparently have decided it doesn't merit further development. While Sony became the MILC platform of choice for the Alt community, in part by being the first to market, they milked that aspect as much as they could while their native mount offerings were few and far between. Now that native lens options are extensive, how many who entered as Alt users remain dedicated to that pursuit? I would guess a minority.
This isn't to say I'm not skeptical about this new Heliar lens and where it fits in the grand puzzle of yet another 50mm lens, but will wait for sample images before coming to a conclusion.
p.3 #4 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
DavidBM wrote:
Some people here with connections in Japan have reported that at one point the 2/65 Apo Lanthar in e Mount was Cosinas best selling lens in any mount, and another E mount lens was their second best seller. But sales don’t seem to be their primary driver. Voigtländer lenses are a hobby for Mr K.
Up until 2-3 years ago it was common to see 3-5 E-mount lenses topping the Cosina lens sales positions in Japan constantly but recently it's spread out more between E-mount and others. 35/2, 50/2 and 65/2 are still constantly among the best-selling Cosina E-mount lenses, along with 35/1.4 classic.
Current Cosina lens sales rankings in Japan according to https://kakaku.com/camera/camera-lens/itemlist.aspx?pdf_ma=365.
kakaku.com is a very popular price-comparison and sales ranking site in Japan and they collect data from lots of different shops, and I think their sales ranking comparison data should be a fairly good data point regarding Cosina lens sales in Japan.
Top 10 as of today (the rankings list is updated every day based on latest data although I think it's some kind of accumulated data over several days of sales and not just current day's sales):
1) Nokton 35/1.2 for X-mount (pre-orders) at #114 among all lenses
2) 50/2 APO-Lanthar for E-mount at #148
3) Nokton classic 40/1.4 VM (MC) at #202
4) Nokton classic 40/1.4 VM (SC) at #214
5) Nokton classic 35/1.4 II VM (SC) at #247
6) 35/2 APO-Lanthar for E-mount at #265
7) Ultron 40/2 SL II S for Nikon (black rim) at #282
7) Nokton classic 35/1.4 for E-mount at #282
9) 65/2 APO-Lanthar for E-mount at #310
10) Color-Skopar 35/2.5 PII VM at #340
10) Color-Skopar 21/4 VM at #340
Some of the recent VM releases have many different versions (6 for 50/1.5 II, 3 for 28/2 II etc.) and those are listed as separate sales items in the rankings so it's hard to measure how well they are selling combined among all Cosina lenses, but none of those have ranked very high at any time. 50/2 APO-Lanthar for E-mount was ranked at #5 among all lenses for a short time when the lens came out and that's by far the highest I've ever seen any Cosina lens go. It has continued to be a very strong seller for them ever since. 35/2 APO-Lanthar never peaked as high but it's also been sticking to quite high positions among Cosina lenses since it came out and 65/2 has stayed near the top all the time as well.
Based on the continous good sales of the E-mount APO-Lanthars (especially 50/2, 65/2, 35/2) I would expect Cosina to continue releasing more APO-Lanthars in similar style as 50/2 and 35/2 for E-mount but probably at a pace of 1 per year or so. There would be room for 28/2 and 75/2 APO-Lanthars going forward.
From VM lenses, some of their old ones that are small and reasonably priced, and especially both versions of classic 40/1.4 keep selling well all the time.
p.3 #6 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
I think it seems to be a smart understanding of their niche—the number of E-mount users who adapt Alt lenses is certainly a shrinking minority with all the new E-mount options. And most Sony users prefer AF. And even those who might enjoy the MF experience are much more likely to want something AF once the foal length reaches a certain point (except when doing macro photography). I don’t really know/see anyone here using long MF lenses on Sony (and there are many Alt options)—the siren song of the C/Y 100-300 has been sung.
That said, it will be interesting to see what makes this 50 distinctive amidst the wide field of other options. So far, I haven’t seen reason to prefer any CV lenses over my ZM C-Sonnar (which I swap out with an adapted Leitaxed Macro-Elmarit R 60/2.8 depending on the circumstances—this latter is a great all arounder—sharp across the frame, flat field, macro, with really beautiful color and tonal rendition).
(FWIW, I still only use adapted MF lenses—on the long end that includes Canon FDn 80-200L/4, 100/2, and 300L/4, all of which perform great, render beautifully, and leave nothing on the table with regard to my experience. I don’t like AF for my photography, even when it includes soccer action, kids, birds, bees, and butterflies in flight, etc.)
p.3 #7 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
tsdevine wrote:
I would by both a 28 and 75 APO.
I think Voigtlander could design a superb 75/2 APO for both E and M mounts. It's interesting to me they didn't port the CV 75/1.5 Nokton to E-mount since the performance is quite similar on both Leica and Sony bodies. It's perhaps something technical I'm not aware of.
p.3 #8 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
Juha Kannisto wrote:
...
1) Nokton 35/1.2 for X-mount (pre-orders) at #114 among all lenses
2) 50/2 APO-Lanthar for E-mount at #148
3) Nokton classic 40/1.4 VM (MC) at #202
4) Nokton classic 40/1.4 VM (SC) at #214
5) Nokton classic 35/1.4 II VM (SC) at #247
6) 35/2 APO-Lanthar for E-mount at #265
7) Ultron 40/2 SL II S for Nikon (black rim) at #282
7) Nokton classic 35/1.4 for E-mount at #282
9) 65/2 APO-Lanthar for E-mount at #310
10) Color-Skopar 35/2.5 PII VM at #340
10) Color-Skopar 21/4 VM at #340
...
From VM lenses, some of their old ones that are small and reasonably priced, and especially both versions of classic 40/1.4 keep selling well all the time....Show more →
It's an interesting breakdown, three of the E mounts are APO-Lanthar and all of the VM are small lenses. ...Might be a clue why something like the 28 Ultron II was released. What is interesting is what isn't here - some of the key E Noktons like the 40 and 50. My interpretation would be that the Nokton line sells well for the niche VM market but doesn't for the E market (in Japan). I suspect that if we were going to see a wider range of E mounts, they would have been here already...
p.3 #9 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
Fred Miranda wrote:
I think Voigtlander could design a superb 75/2 APO for both E and M mounts. It's interesting to me they didn't port the CV 75/1.5 Nokton to E-mount since the performance is quite similar on both Leica and Sony bodies. It's perhaps something technical I'm not aware of.
I would like a 75/1.5 Nokton E. 😎 My guess is it’s deemed economically not feasible, maybe since it would compete against many fine native AF lenses in the same range.
Technically the E mount is wider than M, shorter flange distance and no need for a rangefinder coupling, so a 75/1.5 Nokton E is likely easier to manufacture than the 75/1.5 Nokton VM.
If I want an f/1.2-f/1.4 kit I will have look into a combo adapted MF VM and native AF (24/1.4 GM maybe) or MF E-mount lenses. This in order to make it lightweight enough for me to bother bringing it with me.
Voigtländer Noktons E and VM seem like the best compromise between weight and optical quality for my use.
p.3 #10 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
bjornthun wrote:
I would like a 75/1.5 Nokton E. 😎 My guess is it’s deemed economically not feasible, maybe since it would compete against many fine native AF lenses in the same range.
Technically the E mount is wider than M, shorter flange distance and no need for a rangefinder coupling, so a 75/1.5 Nokton E is likely easier to manufacture than the 75/1.5 Nokton VM.
If I want an f/1.2-f/1.4 kit I will have look into a combo adapted MF VM and native AF (24/1.4 GM maybe) or MF E-mount lenses. This in order to make it lightweight enough for me to bother bringing it with me.
Voigtländer Noktons E and VM seem like the best compromise between weight and optical quality for my use....Show more →
Yes, since the 75/1.5 Nokton + adapter works well on the Sony, it would be very easy for Cosina to port it to the E-mount, so I can't think of any technical issue preventing it from happening. As you wrote, there may be a financial reason for this.
However, a 75/2 APO would be very unique with nothing to compete against in E-mount. On the Leica side, it would compete with the Leica's 75/2 APO cron which is an older design and way more expensive. Bring it on Cosina!
p.3 #11 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
mapgraphs wrote:
It's an interesting breakdown, three of the E mounts are APO-Lanthar and all of the VM are small lenses. ...Might be a clue why something like the 28 Ultron II was released. What is interesting is what isn't here - some of the key E Noktons like the 40 and 50. My interpretation would be that the Nokton line sells well for the niche VM market but doesn't for the E market (in Japan). I suspect that if we were going to see a wider range of E mounts, they would have been here already...
The original Nokton 40/1.2 for E-mount was actually one of Cosina's best-sellers in Japan for a couple of years after it came out in 2017. It was usually one of the top 3-5 sellers among Cosina lenses until late 2019 but now there are many different competing relatively similar options, e.g. original 40/1.2, original 50/1.2, 35/1.2 SE, 40/1.2 SE and 50/1.2 SE and they are also competing with 35/2 and 50/2 APO-Lanthars. E-mount also got plenty of other competitive options at 35-50mm from many other lens makers in the meanwhile too.
The f1.2 Noktons are currently piled up at positions 7, 8, 9, 10, 11.
Anyway, since the 35/2, 50/2, 65/2 APO-Lanthars for E-mount have been consistent best-sellers in Cosina's lineup in Japan ever since they came out, I think Cosina will continue coming up with more APO-Lanthars for E-mount and probably designing and releasing VM versions at the same time. In the meanwhile they might keep their more experimental releases like this 50/1.5 Heliar in VM only and they'll probably put focus on expanding their X-mount offerings too.
p.3 #12 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
Fred Miranda wrote:
Yes, since the 75/1.5 Nokton + adapter works well on the Sony, it would be very easy for Cosina to port it to the E-mount, so I can't think of any technical issue preventing it from happening. As you wrote, there may be a financial reason for this.
However, a 75/2 APO would be very unique with nothing to compete against in E-mount. On the Leica side, it would compete with Leica's 75/2 APO cron which is an older design and way more expensive. Bring it on Cosina!
Maybe since it adapts without much compromise, that’s why there’s no E-mount version. Cosina seems to design these for how they want to use them and that’s literally where the conversation stops. Thankfully they have good taste in lenses!
I’ve been jealous of the E-mount-only Macro Lanthars for some time now. Given Leica has a 30cm MFD 35mm APO now, maybe CV will make one or two APO macros for M at some point. Imagine if CV not only makes a VM 28 and 75 APO, but they also make them macros!! I wouldn’t be able to find my wallet fast enough.
p.3 #13 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
highdesertmesa wrote:
Maybe since it adapts without much compromise, that’s why there’s no E-mount version. Cosina seems to design these for how they want to use them and that’s literally where the conversation stops. Thankfully they have good taste in lenses!
That's a good point but there are Sony purists who do not like to adapt and lose functionality like EXIF transmission, auto-IBIS and auto-magnification. Furthermore, the CV 10/5.6, 12/5.6 and 15/4.5 have identical optical designs for both M and E. So, in this case Voigtlander saw the need for both mounts even though Sony shooters could just adapt the M version lenses.
I’ve been jealous of the E-mount-only Macro Lanthars for some time now. Given Leica has a 30cm MFD 35mm APO now, maybe CV will make one or two APO macros for M at some point. Imagine if CV not only makes a VM 28 and 75 APO, but they also make them macros!! I wouldn’t be able to find my wallet fast enough.
Since I mainly use RF and prefer not using accessories, I'm not much of a fan of macro lenses for Leica RF but agree that Voigtlander should make a macro lens for the M. Currently the macro-elmar-M 90 f/4 reigns alone.
I would not want it to be similar in size to a CV 65/2 APO E.
p.3 #14 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
The Leica 90/4 Macro is only a four element Elmar or Tessar type, so it should be easy for Cosina to top that. A super portable MF 90/4 macro that could be used on Sony as well without breaking the bank would be nice.
p.3 #15 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
bjornthun wrote:
The Leica 90/4 Macro is only a four element Elmar or Tessar type, so it should be easy for Cosina to top that. A super portable MF 90/4 macro that could be used on Sony as well without breaking the bank would be nice.
Yes, it would be great: CV 75/2 APO and compact CV 90/4 APO Macro!
The current Leica is compact with few elements but I've heard it's one of the sharpest M lenses they produced to date.
p.3 #16 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
Fred Miranda wrote:
Yes, it would be great: CV 75/2 APO and compact CV 90/4 APO Macro!
The current Leica is compact with few elements but I've heard it's one of the sharpest M lenses they produced to date.
The old Nikon Ai(-S) 105/4 Micro-Nikkor was a five element design. It might not have won a resolution test today, but it had very nice contrast nevertheless. I suspect that the Leica 90/4 Macro does some of the same.
p.3 #18 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
I was actually thinking of posting a poll about which CV lenses would FM members most like to see released, with the following choices:
* APO-Lanthar 28mm (M and E mounts)
* APO-Lanthar 75mm (M and E mounts)
* Nokton 75mm f/1.5 (E mount, based on the M mount version).
It seems from the posts on this page that these are indeed the top contenders. I hope that Juha is correct in predicting that CV will continue to release APO-Lanthar lenses at the rate of one a year and that we’ll eventually get a 28mm AL. I care a little less about an AL 75mm because I have an APO-Summicron-M 75mm and the fact that it’s “an older design” is a plus rather than a minus for me. But, assuming that an AL 75’s rendering will be quite different to that of the APO-Summicron, I probably won’t be able to resist getting one.
Over the past six months I’ve done something that, when I bought my Leica M10-P at the beginning of 2019, I swore I’d never do: assemble a kit of Leica-branded lenses from 28mm to 135mm with the goal of replacing a number of my VM and ZM lenses. The 35mm and 50mm APO-Lanthars are vital components of my Leica kit but, with the exception of 28mm and 75mm APO-Lanthars, I am now completely indifferent to future CV releases since these are most likely to be oddball “vintage” and “classic” designs that are produced according to what seems to be Mr Kobayashi’s whim.
p.3 #20 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
Nick Dakota wrote:
It's amazing how quick & aggressive Voigtlander is with releasing new VM lenses, while Zeiss could care less.
It might be because Zeiss couldn't care less (for now), since it frees up Cosina's time and efforts for their own lenses.
I think Zeiss has made some costly mistakes and mis-reads of the market, particularly with their Milvus line and the ZX1. My guess is they're waiting for an overall market recovery before launching any new designs.
