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Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

hmzimelka
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p.6 #1 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

Steve Spencer wrote:
No, think of it this way. The center and edges are optimally focussed at 2,000 M (i.e., the infinity stop), but the corners are optimally focussed just at little closer at 1,000 M (i.e., a tad before the infinity stop). This is mild inward field curvature.

I'm sure those numbers are exactly correct, but they should suffice to illustrate how the pattern Fred has shown is inward field curvature.

But the images show that the corners are optimally focused when focus ring is positioned slightly before infinity. That means the focus plane for the corners is behind that of the centre. Isn't that outward field curvature? Inward curvature would mean the corners focus closer to the camera and would require a back-focus correction.

Sep 11, 2022 at 12:44 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.6 #2 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

hmzimelka wrote:
But the images show that the corners are optimally focused when focus ring is positioned slightly before infinity. That means the focus plane for the corners is behind that of the centre. Isn't that outward field curvature? Inward curvature would mean the corners focus closer to the camera and would require a back-focus correction.

No as I explained above the images show that the corners are in optimal focus when the plain of focus is closer to the camera (i.e., just a tad short of infinity), than the center and mid-zone that are in optimal focus when the plain of focus is set farther away from the camera (i.e., infinity focus). This is inward field curvature.

Sep 11, 2022 at 09:20 AM

Fred Miranda
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p.6 #3 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

Hi, if I wrote inwards here, it should actually be outwards as mentioned by Martin.

Here you can see the outwards shape from the Leica 50/1.4 Lux. (first image on the post)
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1741370/3#15853850

The reason it is outwards is that in order for the very edges to be in focus, it requires the camera to focus closer.

The image from the post above shows the FC shape at around 4m. At infinity distance, the shape flatten out futher and only the very edges of the frame are curved.

Sep 11, 2022 at 11:08 AM

hmzimelka
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p.6 #4 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

Sep 11, 2022 at 11:09 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.6 #5 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

Fred Miranda wrote:
Hi, if I wrote inwards here, it should actually be outwards as mentioned by Martin.

Here you can see the outwards shape from the Leica 50/1.4 Lux. (first image on the post)
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1741370/3#15853850

The reason it is outwards is that in order for the very edges to be in focus, it requires the camera to focus closer.

The image from the post above shows the FC shape at around 4m. At infinity distance, the shape flatten out futher and only the very edges of the frame are curved.

I think it is just Martin and you in this post are using inward and outward in a different way than I am. I call it inward if the edges focus at a closer distance than the center. I guess you are calling this outward. I really don't care about such terminology. The point is that with this lens we know that the edges and corners focus at a closer distance than the center. It has always made sense to me to call that inward field curvature because the edges are bending inward toward the camera, but if people want to call that outward curvature that is fine with me.

Sep 11, 2022 at 12:13 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.6 #6 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

Steve Spencer wrote:
I think it is just Martin and you in this post are using inward and outward in a different way that I am. I call it inward if the edges focus at a closer distance than the center. I guess you are calling this outward. I really don't care about such terminology. The point is that with this lens we know that the edges and corners focus at closer distance than the center. It has always made sense to me to call that inward field curvature because the edges are bending inward toward the camera, but if people want...Show more →

Think about it this way:

Because of the outwards curvature, the corners are behind true infinity at center. In order to bring the corners in focus, the lens has to be focused closer.

In the illustration below, the red line (out of focus corners) has to match the black line (true infinity) in order to be in focus.

Sep 11, 2022 at 12:25 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.6 #7 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

Sep 11, 2022 at 01:36 PM

highdesertmesa
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p.6 #8 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

Fred Miranda wrote:
Think about it this way:

Because of the outwards curvature, the corners are behind true infinity at center. In order to bring the corners in focus, the lens has to be focused closer.

In the illustration below, the red line (out of focus corners) has to match the black line (true infinity) in order to be in focus.

This finally makes sense to me now.

If a lens did have *inward* field curvature wide open at infinity, the corners could never be brought into focus wide open without focusing past infinity � would that be right?

Sep 11, 2022 at 02:58 PM

gordec
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p.6 #9 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

The VM 50 APO doesn't look that much bigger compared to the 50 Lux, but it seems to handle bigger than the 50 Lux. I'm pretty happy with Zeiss Planar 50 right now. It seems to do everything I want out of a 50. For the M mount, every little size increase makes a big difference in quality of of life.

Sep 13, 2022 at 12:27 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.6 #10 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

gordec wrote:
The VM 50 APO doesn't look that much bigger compared to the 50 Lux, but it seems to handle bigger than the 50 Lux. I'm pretty happy with Zeiss Planar 50 right now. It seems to do everything I want out of a 50. For the M mount, every little size increase makes a big difference in quality of of life.

They have exactly the same length although the Lux is a stop faster. Both have great axial CA correction but the Lux is capable of smoother rendering even when both are set to f/2.

I find the Zeiss 50/2 Planar a wonderful lens, especially stop down a bit. It has a double gauss design similar to Loxia 50/2 E-mount and Leica 50/2 Summicron with 6 elements and no aspherical.

Sep 26, 2023 at 04:22 PM

gammarART
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p.6 #11 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

Hello everyone,

I'm currently torn between the Voigtl�nder 50mm 1.2 and the Summilux 50mm 1.4 Asph for my 240-P.

Both are readily available; the Summilux even in silver as 11892. However, the Lux costs nearly double � both in pristine condition.In terms of an all-round lens (also for travel), what speaks for the Summilux and justifies the higher price? Setting aside the external design.

I'm planning to upgrade to an M11 this year. Purchasing the Summilux would mean waiting a bit longer for the 60-megapixel camera.

Which lens would you recommend in this dilemma?

Thanks and sunny greetings from Germany.

Oliver

Apr 03, 2024 at 07:23 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.6 #12 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

gammarART wrote:
Hello everyone,

I'm currently torn between the Voigtl�nder 50mm 1.2 and the Summilux 50mm 1.4 Asph for my 240-P.

Both are readily available; the Summilux even in silver as 11892. However, the Lux costs nearly double � both in pristine condition.In terms of an all-round lens (also for travel), what speaks for the Summilux and justifies the higher price? Setting aside the external design.

I'm planning to upgrade to an M11 this year. Purchasing the Summilux would mean waiting a bit longer for the 60-megapixel camera.

Which lens would you recommend in this dilemma?

Thanks and sunny greetings from Germany.

Oliver

The 50 lux Asph (first version without the close focus) has been and remains my favorite lens. I also have the Voigtlander 50 f/1.2 for Sony E mount. It is among my favorite lenses for Sony. Both are wonderful lenses, but what really separates them on Leica M is that the Leica is considerably smaller and blocks the rangefinder less. I am also a fan of the built-in hood on the Leica (not everyone is).

I would say that both lenses have really nice bokeh, both lenses also have quite good control of CA, and both lenses have quite good central sharpness even wide open. Very few lenses have all three of those things. I find the Leica does better near closer than a meter (it has a floating element the Voigtlander lacks), and I find the Voigtlander has a flatter field than the Leica, which has a bit of a mid zone dip until you stop down to f/5.6 or so.

All that said, they are both great lenses, but I prefer the Leica for its smaller size which I really value on a Leica M camera because of how it affects the use of the rangefinder. I can tolerate larger lenses on the Sony as the viewfinder is an EVF and is unaffected by the size of the lens. That difference in size and the better close performance for me makes the Leica worth the extra money, but your mileage may vary.

Apr 03, 2024 at 07:40 AM

RexGig0
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p.6 #13 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

I would not sell or trade a known-good M-P Type 240, for an M11, until I had thoroughly tested the M11. Here is a link to a related discussion: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1852608

I actually started with a new, original-version M10, when I bought my Summilux, in April 2018. After my M10 was damaged, by an impact, when dropped, I acquired a pre-owned, pristine M Type 246 Monochrom, in order to keep shooting with the M system, unitl my M10 was repaired. I would not trade either an M10, nor an M Type 246, in order to be able to buy an M11. There are times that having 60MP would be nice, but I believe that I would rather have the 40MP or the M10-R or the M10 Monochrom, in the now-well-proven M10 system.

Disclaimer: I can �cheat,� in the megapixel arena, by using a Nikon D850 or Canon 5Ds R. Even so, when I do use a DSLR, it is typically one with 16MP or 20MP. I am not any kind of expert.

Apr 03, 2024 at 07:55 AM

gammarART
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p.6 #14 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

Thank you for your responses.

Actually, I come from a Fujifilm GFX 100s, so I�m used to significantly more megapixels. However, that�s gone now, and all that remains is the M and a Sony 7R III for anything where I need autofocus.

Therefore, the 24 megapixels of the 240-P don�t bother me too much. It�s more the very limited dynamic range reserves that sting. Especially when it comes to painterly colorful skies over landscapes, they quickly show when the dynamic range is pushed to its limits. On the other hand, I really like the colors of the 240-P.

I�ve considered the M11 more for the extra reserves and better technical features like USB-C.

Apr 03, 2024 at 08:44 AM

nehemiahphoto
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p.6 #15 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

Apr 03, 2024 at 09:14 AM

RexGig0
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p.6 #16 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

gammarART wrote:
Thank you for your responses.

Actually, I come from a Fujifilm GFX 100s, so I�m used to significantly more megapixels. However, that�s gone now, and all that remains is the M and a Sony 7R III for anything where I need autofocus.

Therefore, the 24 megapixels of the 240-P don�t bother me too much. It�s more the very limited dynamic range reserves that sting. Especially when it comes to painterly colorful skies over landscapes, they quickly show when the dynamic range is pushed to its limits. On the other hand, I really like the colors of the 240-P.

I�ve considered the M11 more...Show more →

Carefully research dynamic range comparisons of the M10-R and the M11. The M11 may not be the better of the two, in this aspect. I cannot cite any specific source, but seem to remember that dynamic range would not be a reason for me to choose an M11. Hopefully, another member, here, can be more helpful, in this specific matter.

Another thing that I seem to remember about the M11 is that its colors are different from those of earlier digital Leica M cameras. The internal memory and USB-C connectivity would be useful, but I do not use M cameras for �work,� so, have no �work-flow.� I added the M system as an antidote to the toxicity of evidentiary/forensic/crime scene photography, an added duty during the final seven years of my career in public service. That was �work.� The character and rendering of the Summilux-M 50mm ASPH served to help me wish to photograph people, again.

I have not used an M11, but, personally, would rather upgrade the lens, first, without compromise in the choice of the lens. The optical character of a lens cannot be so easily faked in post-processing, at this point in time, and even if AI eventually allows that fakery, I would still want have the optical effects at the moment of capture. This is not an anti-Cosina/Voigtlander bias, on my part. I actually bought a Voigtlander 50mm APO lens, last year, because it is better-corrected, optically, across the frame, which is desirable, in some circumstances. Landscape shooting, during anticipated 2024 road trips, was a major reason I added the Voigtlander 50mm APO Lanthar.

Apr 03, 2024 at 10:29 AM

gammarART
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p.6 #17 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

Actually, in terms of the sensor, I would also be satisfied with an M10-R and maybe even a 10-P. However, the M11 with USB-C and other features is the more modern camera, AND the 10-P and the R are only slightly cheaper than the 11.

Is there any particular version of the Summilux Asph that you recommend? I can get the silver 11892 for just under 2300 euros in very good condition. I recently had the 50mm Summicron Version 5, and I wasn�t particularly impressed with it. I wouldn�t know what I�m paying the high price for with this one.

How is it with the Summilux Asph?

Apr 03, 2024 at 11:24 AM

Fred Miranda
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p.6 #18 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

RexGig0 wrote:
Carefully research dynamic range comparisons of the M10-R and the M11. The M11 may not be the better of the two, in this aspect. I cannot cite any specific source, but seem to remember that dynamic range would not be a reason for me to choose an M11. Hopefully, another member, here, can be more helpful, in this specific matter.

Another thing that I seem to remember about the M11 is that its colors are different from those of earlier digital Leica M cameras. The internal memory and USB-C connectivity would be useful, but I do not use M cameras for...Show more →

I was really interested when the M11 was released and wanted to check out its dynamic range claims. I decided to compare the dynamic range of the M11 to the M10-R by taking DNG files under normal exposure and also overexposing files by +2, +3, +4, and +5EV, then normalizing them in post. First, I downscaled the M11 files to 41MP. After looking at the images side by side, my conclusion is that both cameras have the same dynamic range. I could "recover" highlights to the exact same point, and the shadows had a similar level of noise. However, I did notice that when shooting with the M11 @ISO 64, there was less noise, giving it an advantage in SNR.

So, in terms of dynamic range, I'd say both the M10-R and M11 have about a 1-stop advantage over the M10 24MP and about a 2-stop advantage compared to the M240 series. I posted this comparison in the original M11 thread but can't locate it at the moment.

Apr 03, 2024 at 12:41 PM

gammarART
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p.6 #19 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

Thank you for sharing your experience. That definitely makes investing in a potentially more expensive lens more attractive right now. While it would be nice to have the current Summilux with the low minimum focusing distance, it�s still too expensive for me. And unfortunately, the Voigtl�nder 1.2 also only has a minimum focusing distance of 0.7m.

Apr 03, 2024 at 12:55 PM

Andrew CD
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p.6 #20 · Leica 50/1.4 Lux vs Voigtlander 50/1.2 Nokton vs 50/2 APO

gammarART wrote:
Is there any particular version of the Summilux Asph that you recommend? I can get the silver 11892 for just under 2300 euros in very good condition. I recently had the 50mm Summicron Version 5, and I wasn�t particularly impressed with it. I wouldn�t know what I�m paying the high price for with this one.

How is it with the Summilux Asph?

I too need to decide whether to buy the CV 50/1.2 Nokton or a Summilux! (Although I might consider one of the earlier, non-aspherical versions.) I did actually own the CV f/1.2, but sold it when I bought the CV f/2 APO � which I now regret. So I may repurchase it.

By the way, I realise that you�re asking about the Asph but, if you would be interested to get an idea of the characteristics of the earlier, non-aspherical versions, it would be worth looking at this thread:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1812141/0

As for the Asph, if you haven�t already seen it, I recommend reading Puts� analysis, here:

http://photo.imx.nl//leica/lenses/lenses/page57.html

His Rembrandt / Vermeer analogy, to describe the difference between earlier and new versions, is lovely.

My collection of Leica M-mount lenses is very modest, currently just three older models but, of all of the ones I might consider buying at some point, the one I�d most like to have (and will probably buy first) is a 50mm Summilux � hence needing to decide between it and the Nokton.

In terms of optical performance, I think it�s fair to say that the Nokton has some advantages, but the ergonomics and character of the Summilux are pushing me in its direction. To some degree, it depends on what you want to use it for � it is probably stating the obvious to say that neither is the best choice for landscapes, for example � so it�s well worth considering the pros and cons that @Steve Spencer and @nehemiahphoto have mentioned in the context of how you would use it.

If I do buy a Summilux, it will most probably the be the Asph silver version, 11892, that you mention (note that it is quite a bit heavier than the black one). I should leave it to those who have experience of using both to comment on the differences between the original 2006 (11891/2) and current, closer-focusing versions.

Apr 03, 2024 at 01:09 PM

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