helimat wrote:
It would be nice, but still sounds like wishful thinking. When has Leica ever concerned themselves with the competition of used gear? As far as I know, that has never been their modus operandi.
As well, for argument sake, say they did try to compete with used gear, wouldn't the new 'affordable' Leica also become used gear at some point? Would they then release something else even cheaper to compete with it? Where does it end?
I'll tell you where. Before it begins.
This is all based off of a rumor which I would be very surprised if it were true! Hell, forget about M mount or whatever, it would be a new FILM camera from Leica. I don’t know what year the Sofort was released (not a true Leica camera as it’s just a rebadged Fuji Instax camera), but Leica’s last (35mm) film camera was the M-A that came out in 2014. It will be 5/6 years if this rumor is true and Leica will be releasing a new film camera. I hope it’s not another Leica X Fuji Collab Instax film camera, a-la Sofort Mk II, but a real 35mm film camera.
With that said and 1) assuming that the rumor is indeed true and, 2) that the consumption of film is on the up and up, it makes sense for Leica to capitalize on this. Why else would they release another film camera? To make money!!! I’m sure they’re completely aware of how much film gear has increased over the years. Why wouldn’t they want to make more money, get more people interested in and have a Leica product in their hands if they can put something to market that’s competitively priced (for what it is)?
Will people still buy used Leica M film bodies after this new camera is released? You bet, but now Leica will have another product that might make people think twice about buying used when they can buy new. Like I said, this is all assumptions. We don’t even know what format this new camera will be. For all we know, it could be a fixed lens point and shoot. Still, it’s fun to think about the potential here.
Alpha_Geist wrote:
This is all based off of a rumor which I would be very surprised if it were true! Hell, forget about M mount or whatever, it would be a new FILM camera from Leica. I don’t know what year the Sofort was released (not a true Leica camera as it’s just a rebadged Fuji Instax camera), but Leica’s last (35mm) film camera was the M-A that came out in 2014. It will be 5/6 years if this rumor is true and Leica will be releasing a new film camera. I hope it’s not another Leica X Fuji Collab Instax film camera, a-la Sofort Mk II, but a real 35mm film camera.
With that said and 1) assuming that the rumor is indeed true and, 2) that the consumption of film is on the up and up, it makes sense for Leica to capitalize on this. Why else would they release another film camera? To make money!!! I’m sure they’re completely aware of how much film gear has increased over the years. Why wouldn’t they want to make more money, get more people interested in and have a Leica product in their hands if they can put something to market that’s competitively priced (for what it is)?
Will people still buy used Leica M film bodies after this new camera is released? You bet, but now Leica will have another product that might make people think twice about buying used when they can buy new. Like I said, this is all assumptions. We don’t even know what format this new camera will be. For all we know, it could be a fixed lens point and shoot. Still, it’s fun to think about the potential here. ...Show more →
Oh, I agree 100% that it would make sense for Leica to capitalize on the recent increase in interest in film. I just think that, (again, if the rumour is true) if it is going to be a M mount camera, it will be much more expensive. Just less than the MP & M-A. And will sell a ton!
Alpha_Geist wrote:
If Leica can manufacture and market a 35mm rangefinder body for a price that undercuts the used M mount film bodies, then we all win. How so?
Maybe. But I was answering to retrofocus who explained that the camera cannot cost more than $2000 because it would be in direct competition with a $1000 M3.
Unless you believe that Leica has the means and the will to build a rangefinder for such a low price, I do not see your point.
pmeheut wrote:
Maybe. But I was answering to retrofocus who explained that the camera cannot cost more than $2000 because it would be in direct competition with a $1000 M3.
Unless you believe that Leica has the means and the will to build a rangefinder for such a low price, I do not see your point.
If you read my earlier post in this thread, then you'd have noticed that my guess for the rumored new Leica camera is not a rangefinder. Do I believe that Leica would sell a new film M, possibly stripped down and manufactured elsewhere, for $1k or $2k or less? Hell no! I, and many others, would be pleasantly surprised if they did...AND if they did, then I would expect prices for used film M cameras to fall. That would be a win win situation as far as I'm concerned.
Besides, all we know from the rumor is that it will be a cheaper camera and possibly similar to the M6 TTL. Anything else is just pure mental masturbation.
The reason that Leica currently cannot meet the demand for the MP is pretty much because they make so few of them. It's not hard for demand to overwhelm supply of they only make 30 cameras a month (for example).
I hope to be proven wrong but I really don't see Leica producing a new 35mm film camera, let alone an affordable one. The M7 was dropped as demand for it had dropped and it was more expensive to produce than the MP. Introducing the MA was cheaper to produce than the MP as no meter. And so pretty much 99% of the parts are the same.
If Leica really wanted to sell more film cameras, all they have to do is increase production of the MP until supply kept up with demand. They don't have to introduce a new film camera.
Desmolicious wrote:
The reason that Leica currently cannot meet the demand for the MP is pretty much because they make so few of them. It's not hard for demand to overwhelm supply of they only make 30 cameras a month (for example).
I hope to be proven wrong but I really don't see Leica producing a new 35mm film camera, let alone an affordable one. The M7 was dropped as demand for it had dropped and it was more expensive to produce than the MP. Introducing the MA was cheaper to produce than the MP as no meter. And so pretty much 99% of the parts are the same.
If Leica really wanted to sell more film cameras, all they have to do is increase production of the MP until supply kept up with demand. They don't have to introduce a new film camera....Show more →
You bring up a good point Huss. Leica makes a limited supply of film rangefinders each year. I would imagine digital (M & L) bodies and lenses are their bread and butter.
I would like to know if they have a separate work center solely for their film M bodies versus their digital M bodies? If Leica were to increase production of the M-A/MP, would that cut into their digital M manufacturing by taking resources away from it? Can they manufacture film Ms in their Portugal manufacturing plant? If Leica were able to increase M-A/MP production, would they decrease the price of the camera? Actually, no...no they wouldn't. :P
I don't think this rumor makes any business sense. I can see Leica trying to get a larger portion of the film pie because film use is up, but in my opinion, the piece of that pie would still be too small to justify a new film camera. If (and a BIG if) Leica were to announce/release a new film body in 2021, my bet is that it would not be a M rangefinder body. It would be something outside of the M ecosystem and expensive for what it is.
Alpha_Geist wrote:
If you read my earlier post in this thread, then you'd have noticed that my guess for the rumored new Leica camera is not a rangefinder
And once again, I was answering to retrofocus and his comparison to the 2nd hand M3.
If the new camera is not a rangefinder, I would like to know how it will impact this 2nd hand market.
Alpha_Geist wrote:
Besides, all we know from the rumor is that it will be a cheaper camera and possibly similar to the M6 TTL.
You lost me there: the camera would not be a rangefinder but yet somehow similar to the M6 TTL?
Alpha_Geist wrote:
Anything else is just pure mental masturbation.
Not anything else: this entire thread is wanking the log.
pmeheut wrote:
And once again, I was answering to retrofocus and his comparison to the 2nd hand M3.
If the new camera is not a rangefinder, I would like to know how it will impact this 2nd hand market.
These aren't private posts. How will this rumored camera (if it turns out to not be a rangefinder) impact the second hand market? Well, that depends on what the camera has to offer and what that means to the individual. If it's "cheap" enough and provides a shooting experience deemed close enough to an M, then it might lure people to it over a used M. If it's not sufficiently attractive enough to lure potential second hand M purchases, then it would likely do jack squat.
pmeheut wrote:
You lost me there: the camera would not be a rangefinder but yet somehow similar to the M6 TTL?
I'm not putting any faith into this rumor being accurate. I don't see how an introduction of another M film rangefinder that's supposedly "cheaper" would help Leica when they can't even meet the demand for the M-A/MP. The rumor site mentions that it will likely be similar to the M6 TTL and be "cheaper". What exactly is "cheaper"? If Leica does come out with a 35mm film camera, my bet is that it wouldn't be a rangefinder.
pmeheut wrote:
Not anything else: this entire thread is wanking the log.
Desmolicious wrote:
The reason that Leica currently cannot meet the demand for the MP is pretty much because they make so few of them. It's not hard for demand to overwhelm supply of they only make 30 cameras a month (for example).
I hope to be proven wrong but I really don't see Leica producing a new 35mm film camera, let alone an affordable one. The M7 was dropped as demand for it had dropped and it was more expensive to produce than the MP. Introducing the MA was cheaper to produce than the MP as no meter. And so pretty much 99% of the parts are the same.
If Leica really wanted to sell more film cameras, all they have to do is increase production of the MP until supply kept up with demand. They don't have to introduce a new film camera....Show more →
Film photography's days might be over with the new airport scanners coming on line that destroy film. Hand inspection is not likely in many parts of the country and most of the world. Back when I was actively shooting film the past 6-7 years I happily sent my film through airport scanners and never suffered any problems at all. They were film safe scanners. The word is out now that all these new scanners are essentially CAT scanner type machines that are far more powerful and will destroy film. Hand inspection is simply not an option in most cases. Security folks dont have the time or even understand why you are asking for such a thing. I used to take trips to Japan or in China and come back with 40-50 rolls of film. No way anyone today will take the time to hand inspect that much film.
To travel and take film shots is going to be a LOT harder in the near future. This will cut demand for film and film cameras a lot I predict.
rattymouse wrote:
Film photography's days might be over with the new airport scanners coming on line that destroy film. Hand inspection is not likely in many parts of the country and most of the world. Back when I was actively shooting film the past 6-7 years I happily sent my film through airport scanners and never suffered any problems at all. They were film safe scanners. The word is out now that all these new scanners are essentially CAT scanner type machines that are far more powerful and will destroy film. Hand inspection is simply not an option in most cases. Security folks dont have the time or even understand why you are asking for such a thing. I used to take trips to Japan or in China and come back with 40-50 rolls of film. No way anyone today will take the time to hand inspect that much film.
To travel and take film shots is going to be a LOT harder in the near future. This will cut demand for film and film cameras a lot I predict. ...Show more →
+1. It is very hard to travel with film.
Nine years ago I flew out of Palm Springs airport with 80+ rolls of 120 film.
They were willing to hand inspect each and every roll of film. It took about an hour. I knew that was going to happen and showed up early.
Good luck with that right now and in a bigger airport!
helimat wrote:
It would be nice, but still sounds like wishful thinking. In all of their history, when has Leica ever concerned themselves with the competition of used gear? As far as I know, that has never been their modus operandi.
As well, for argument sake, say they did try to compete with used gear, wouldn't the new 'affordable' Leica also become used gear at some point? Would they then release something else even cheaper to compete with it? Where does it end?
I'll tell you where. Before it begins.
I highly doubt that a brand new Leica M film camera would depreciate much in the used market if the sales price is around $1.5K what I suggested earlier. Used Leica M film camera prices are rather going up than depreciating these days. M3 and M2 camera prices remain fairly constant over a few years without depreciation either. As I said multiple times earlier, Leica needs to choose a price to be competitive with the used camera market and avoiding in-house competition with MA and MP series cameras.
SlowDriver wrote:
+1. It is very hard to travel with film.
Nine years ago I flew out of Palm Springs airport with 80+ rolls of 120 film.
They were willing to hand inspect each and every roll of film. It took about an hour. I knew that was going to happen and showed up early.
Good luck with that right now and in a bigger airport!
It's not an issue at all from my experience - flying between USA and Europe multiple times between large airports. I have my self-rolled film cartridges (up to six of them) inside a small lead-based film travel bag which I purposely take out of my camera bag during check-in and never even once was stopped because of it after it went through the scanners. Not even once somebody bothered to look inside the bag either.
80+ rolls of film might be a different story. That doesn't look like the standard need of an amateur photographer during a trip.
retrofocus wrote:
It's not an issue at all from my experience - flying between USA and Europe multiple times between large airports. I have my self-rolled film cartridges (up to six of them) inside a small lead-based film travel bag which I purposely take out of my camera bag during check-in and never even once was stopped because of it after it went through the scanners. Not even once somebody bothered to look inside the bag either.
80+ rolls of film might be a different story. That doesn't look like the standard need of an amateur photographer during a trip.
The world is changing. The new scanners destroy film. And just try getting film hand inspected in Europe today. Ain't going to happen. Rome, Paris, Berlin...you will be firmly rejected.
Alpha_Geist wrote:
You bring up a good point Huss. Leica makes a limited supply of film rangefinders each year. I would imagine digital (M & L) bodies and lenses are their bread and butter.
I would like to know if they have a separate work center solely for their film M bodies versus their digital M bodies? If Leica were to increase production of the M-A/MP, would that cut into their digital M manufacturing by taking resources away from it? Can they manufacture film Ms in their Portugal manufacturing plant? If Leica were able to increase M-A/MP production, would they decrease the price of the camera? Actually, no...no they wouldn't. :P
I don't think this rumor makes any business sense. I can see Leica trying to get a larger portion of the film pie because film use is up, but in my opinion, the piece of that pie would still be too small to justify a new film camera. If (and a BIG if) Leica were to announce/release a new film body in 2021, my bet is that it would not be a M rangefinder body. It would be something outside of the M ecosystem and expensive for what it is....Show more →
In this video that I also posted in another thread, you can see the M film cameras being assembled.
There are literally just a couple of ladies doing it at a cubicle, and while the video does not tell the whole story it is reflective of the conventional wisdom/hearsay that Leica's film camera production is extremely limited as is.
I just don't see Leica introducing an all new film camera, when they have deliberately limited production of what they have.
I spotted this a few hours ago. Film is mostly used for creative purposes that does not need a rangefinder, or a meter or even a proper lens. Kodak Folder from year 1919.
Desmolicious wrote:
In this video that I also posted in another thread, you can see the M film cameras being assembled.
There are literally just a couple of ladies doing it at a cubicle, and while the video does not tell the whole story it is reflective of the conventional wisdom/hearsay that Leica's film camera production is extremely limited as is.
I just don't see Leica introducing an all new film camera, when they have deliberately limited production of what they have.
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Leica could outsource production of a new film entirely. A new camera, at a lower price, would not in any way compete with their standard fare. This would be an attempt to grow their business.
retrofocus wrote:
I highly doubt that a brand new Leica M film camera would depreciate much in the used market if the sales price is around $1.5K what I suggested earlier. Used Leica M film camera prices are rather going up than depreciating these days. M3 and M2 camera prices remain fairly constant over a few years without depreciation either. As I said multiple times earlier, Leica needs to choose a price to be competitive with the used camera market and avoiding in-house competition with MA and MP series cameras.
You'd buy a used camera for $1400 when you could buy brand new for $1500? C'mon now.
rattymouse wrote:
The world is changing. The new scanners destroy film. And just try getting film hand inspected in Europe today. Ain't going to happen. Rome, Paris, Berlin...you will be firmly rejected.
It's true, I have first hand experience. Last year I had a couple rolls wrecked leaving Ottawa, (capital of Canada) as unknowingly to me, had recently had the new scanners installed. I probably should have asked for a hand inspection, but it was 4am and my mind was elsewhere. It was nuts there too, I couldn't imagine asking to have a huge number of rolls hand inspected.
rattymouse wrote:
Leica could outsource production of a new film entirely. A new camera, at a lower price, would not in any way compete with their standard fare. This would be an attempt to grow their business.
Who would build their new film camera? Fuji? Cosina (who I think have pulled the plug on all their film camera production)? Epson? Panasonic?
Desmolicious wrote:
Who would build their new film camera? Fuji? Cosina (who I think have pulled the plug on all their film camera production)? Epson? Panasonic?
No idea - it could simply be in Portugal, but I wouldn't exclude China as well in the future for Leica.
