p.62 #1 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
arbitrage wrote:
The buttons were the one thing that stuck out (actually didn't stick out) when I saw the R5 images. They reminded me how puny Canon's buttons have always been for AF-ON, * etc. Sony caught a lot of slack for their buttons until the A9II/A7RIV/A7SIII design. The only decent AF-ON button Canon has produced to date is on the 1DXIII (regardless if one finds the sensor useful or not). I may have forgotten how puny they are after using Nikon for awhile and now the A9II/A7RIV. One thing I was looking forward to with the R5 was better ergonomics but maybe that isn't going to be the case??
I get to finally shoot the R5 this weekend so I'm excited to see if the hype is real or not.
The things that interest me with the R5 are:
1) AED....can it automatically get on birds in cluttered surroundings or just faster in general even in good surroundings?
2) Top screen LCD (I miss this a lot)
3) Better ergonomics with a bigger grip? buttons?
4) Ability to always have my upper control wheels do ISO and SS and not Aperture
5) Large selection of used EF super-tele glass
But the more I get myself past the hype phase, my GAS is diminishing for this camera. This weekend with it in my hands will be the deciding factor (as it should be). We shall see....just hope I can find enough challenging subjects to get a handle on AF speed and accuracy....Show more →
Looking foward to the test Geoff , I know you will give an honest opinion against sony system
p.62 #3 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
I had the a73 the a7r3 and then the a7r4. Ultimately i think, the r5 fills the modern roll of what the a73 did when it came out. The r5 is a shock to sony’s pattern of producing a video camera, and mid range mp hybrid camera and resolution camera. It’s basically the a7r3 combined with the a73 video features but with a9 technology, even better ibis and video specs.
Now that being said, if you’re looking for a resolution focused photo camera, the a7r4 wouldn’t have me looking for a switch. The good news for sony users is that they know the pattern of releases. Sure enough an a74 will soon follow the a7siii which will perhaps come out with a higher mp sensor, 10 bit with 4k 60. For the price of the r6 and the question will then be, how bad do we need 4k 120 that overheats and an extra 10 mp?
Sony’s going to be in their sweet spot where their closest competiton is a crop sensor fuji xt4 for 1k less or 4k 120, with an extra 10 mp for 1500 more. There’s good things to come from Sony.
p.62 #4 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Curiously I read Gordan Laing's R5 initial and saw the gull in flight with a focus square on the eye.
So I wonder if Sony will give a FW update (remember the original a9 received two wonderful FW updates) granting such on the a9ii and A7riv....or will that be an a9iii and A7Rv feature?
p.62 #5 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
MedicineMan404 wrote:
Curiously I read Gordan Laing's R5 initial and saw the gull in flight with a focus square on the eye.
So I wonder if Sony will give a FW update (remember the original a9 received two wonderful FW updates) granting such on the a9ii and A7riv....or will that be an a9iii and A7Rv feature?
I still have hope that the A9II will get the Animal Eye-AF Mark II FW. I recently made a thread about just that: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1658681
I see less chance of the RIV getting it because the A9II has an updated processor. Remember Sony said they would have updates in the future and only supported cats and dogs with the initial release despite the fact of showing birds and other animals in the initial Animal Eye-AF presentation.
I think Sony owe it to the A9II owners who forked out a lot of $$ for a minimally updated camera....I may be a little biased
p.62 #6 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
arbitrage wrote:
I still have hope that the A9II will get the Animal Eye-AF Mark II FW. I recently made a thread about just that: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1658681
I see less chance of the RIV getting it because the A9II has an updated processor. Remember Sony said they would have updates in the future and only supported cats and dogs with the initial release despite the fact of showing birds and other animals in the initial Animal Eye-AF presentation.
I think Sony owe it to the A9II owners who forked out a lot of $$ for a minimally updated camera....I may be a little biased
I think you deserve it too. Bierd eye AF squares still not enough for me to up from the original a9...more mpx's would though.
p.62 #7 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
MedicineMan404 wrote:
I think you deserve it too. Bierd eye AF squares still not enough for me to up from the original a9...more mpx's would though.
My upgrade cost was very minimal (after selling my A9 and getting a big discount on the A9II) so I can live with it if they wait for the A9III with the new A7SIII's processor.
After seeing the new card slots, upgraded menus, elimination of lockouts while writing to cards that the A7SIII has I'm looking forward to an A9III. I just have my fingers crossed that they don't put the vlogger screen on the A9III as I do not like that type.
But they have to get into the low 30MPs this time. I'm worried they are going to become a boring upgrade company like Canon.
Trying out the R5 tomorrow....maybe it is the future with 45MP, 12/20FPS and eye focus for BIF??
p.62 #8 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
arbitrage wrote:
My upgrade cost was very minimal (after selling my A9 and getting a big discount on the A9II) so I can live with it if they wait for the A9III with the new A7SIII's processor.
After seeing the new card slots, upgraded menus, elimination of lockouts while writing to cards that the A7SIII has I'm looking forward to an A9III. I just have my fingers crossed that they don't put the vlogger screen on the A9III as I do not like that type.
But they have to get into the low 30MPs this time. I'm worried they are going to become a boring upgrade company like Canon.
Trying out the R5 tomorrow....maybe it is the future with 45MP, 12/20FPS and eye focus for BIF??...Show more →
The R5 is especially made for Canadian shooters, the hand warmer is built in. Seriously, please run this camera at 20fps & check the noise in the later shots.
p.62 #9 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
mogul wrote:
The R5 is especially made for Canadian shooters, the hand warmer is built in. Seriously, please run this camera at 20fps & check the noise in the later shots.
I will try to evaluate that but only will have maybe 1/2 day to use it. I will certainly see if I see a difference in the latter shots after shooting for a few hours.
p.62 #10 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
MedicineMan404 wrote:
Curiously I read Gordan Laing's R5 initial and saw the gull in flight with a focus square on the eye.
So I wonder if Sony will give a FW update (remember the original a9 received two wonderful FW updates) granting such on the a9ii and A7riv....or will that be an a9iii and A7Rv feature?
As much as I would hope so, I think it is extremely unlikely. I think we would need to see a new updated processor. Seems like Canon have jumped ahead of Sony in terms of computational AF at the moment, so we will need to wait for the A9iii or A7R5 for that...
p.62 #11 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
armd wrote:
R5 kit and adapter arrived today. Initial impressions with respect to stills?
1) Build construction no where near as nice as an a7riv or a9ii - it feels like a mini-5dmkiv with the buttons squashed together. I prefer the shutter release on Canon cameras though the button quality is not as good as Sony's IMHO.
You might want to use the old 'Sugru' trick to improve the buttons. I found this worked wonders on the older generation of Sony bodys. https://sugru.com/
p.62 #12 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Timothy OConn wrote:
As much as I would hope so, I think it is extremely unlikely. I think we would need to see a new updated processor. Seems like Canon have jumped ahead of Sony in terms of computational AF at the moment, so we will need to wait for the A9iii or A7R5 for that...
Baseless assumption. The A9 already got AI based AF through a big FW update. Why shouldn't the A9ii not be able to get one, too? We are not talking about AF calculations per second, but pattern recognition meaning training the neural networks on different training sets than before. Instead of big wildlife animals they just need to include more birds.
Then people can shoot millions of bird photos which then are stored on hard disks in case one needs them.
p.62 #13 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Holger wrote:
Baseless assumption. The A9 already got AI based AF through a big FW update. Why shouldn't the A9ii not be able to get one, too? We are not talking about AF calculations per second, but pattern recognition meaning training the neural networks on different training sets than before. Instead of big wildlife animals they just need to include more birds.
Then people can shoot millions of bird photos which then are stored on hard disks in case one needs them.
BIF might be important to many on this board, but sports is probably more on the minds of Sony given their AP agreements and the Olympics next year. I feel we have a very slanted view towards shooting boards when in reality it makes up a very small portion of how the A9 is used.
p.62 #14 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
I made a YT video about this recently. I expect also that Sony will release a FW update but I think the capabilities Canon now has are also taking advantage of a MUCH faster processor (Digic X) that the current Bionz X can't match (although we see the Bionz XR in the A7SIII) and the R5 and R6 have substantially more AF points than any of the Sony cameras do. So I think Sony can make some improvements in software but it will take new hardware to regain the lead again. That's my guess anyway.
p.62 #15 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
chez wrote:
BIF might be important to many on this board, but sports is probably more on the minds of Sony given their AP agreements and the Olympics next year. I feel we have a very slanted view towards shooting boards when in reality it makes up a very small portion of how the A9 is used.
I think so, too.
Look, if I were a Canon executive, I would have asked myself how to differentiate the R/R5 from the Sony cameras system when going mirrorless and still keep people at bay regarding dslrs.
The obvious things which come to mind:
-go for f1.2 lenses or exotics (28-70/2) first, which are very expensive + entry level body to not loose 1dx3,5d4 shooters immediately but show the potential.
-Look where Sony still could do better (albeit not having had a real rival before, so people were enthusiastic with what they got), identify those points and market those for the new camera -> animal eye-AF, IBIS, video.
Additionally they need to decide whether to go for specialised bodies or more into an allrounder + sports body + entry level cam.
This helps getting traction in areas frequently discussed at boards like this. By the way, I never met people more fanatic (in a positive sense) than BIF shooters, obsessed with expensive long glass, bodies and AF, spending hours in every weather just to get an image of a rare bird... Well, not my thing, but why not if they like it.
p.62 #16 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
2xbass wrote:
I made a YT video about this recently. I expect also that Sony will release a FW update but I think the capabilities Canon now has are also taking advantage of a MUCH faster processor (Digic X) that the current Bionz X can't match (although we see the Bionz XR in the A7SIII) and the R5 and R6 have substantially more AF points than any of the Sony cameras do. So I think Sony can make some improvements in software but it will take new hardware to regain the lead again. That's my guess anyway.
Given the fact that the A9ii still isn't even surpassed by the flagship 1dxiii makes me doubt the talk about who is leading whom. First we need to define what aspects of AF we are talking about as there are many aspects that ultimately contribute to that (AF calculations/s, ability to drive the lenses fast and accurately towards the focus plane, pattern recognition, tracking (colors, contrast or both), sensor read out speed, time required to detect changes in contrast ...). People here are obviously referring to BIF-eye AF etc. Given that it works fantastically well for humans, why do people think it can't be updated to include animals, too? Sony has a different sensor layout, so why is the Bionz X too slow for the smaller amount of PDAF pixels than Canons for the full DPAF array?
p.62 #17 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Holger wrote:
Given the fact that the A9ii still isn't even surpassed by the flagship 1dxiii makes me doubt the talk about who is leading whom. First we need to define what aspects of AF we are talking about as there are many aspects that ultimately contribute to that (AF calculations/s, ability to drive the lenses fast and accurately towards the focus plane, pattern recognition, tracking (colors, contrast or both), sensor read out speed, time required to detect changes in contrast ...). People here are obviously referring to BIF-eye AF etc. Given that it works fantastically well for humans, why do people think it can't be updated to include animals, too? Sony has a different sensor layout, so why is the Bionz X too slow for the smaller amount of PDAF pixels than Canons for the full DPAF array?...Show more →
You’re right that there are many aspects to it. Obviously none of us, without intimate knowledge of how the systems are working and encountering limits, can actually know precisely where the bottlenecks are and how they could be removed or reduced. This is just my guess from shooting wildlife (and also people) professionally with the A7RIV and A9II.
To be clear, I didn’t say I think Sony’s animal eye AF couldn’t be updated, just that I don’t think they can match or surpass the R5 and R6 capabilities with firmware updates alone. For example, one of the things people have been most impressed by has been the ability of the R5 and R6 to track, what appears to be, the eye of animals when they are very small in the frame. Way, way smaller than what we see our Sony cameras doing (even with human eye AF). I expect having more than ten times the number of AF points is something to do with that.
I’ll be impressed and super happy if Sony really could make substantial improvements in firmware alone. Some of it, such as the ability to identify the bodies and to fluidly move between body/head/eye/head/body as Canon are doing, should be possible in theory.
Aug 21, 2020 at 09:50 AM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.62 #18 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Odinsoffphotography wrote:
The r5 is a shock to sony’s pattern of producing a video camera
canon failed big time with r5 video... no event shooter with any common sense is going to want to gamble with a camera that shuts down in the middle of a ceremony, and then takes 12 hours to cool off.
so i don't see r5 video overheating as any kind of a threat to what sony is doing.
Odinsoffphotography wrote:
It’s basically the a7r3 combined with the a73 video features but with a9 technology,
canon does not have stacked sensors, so canon does not have a9 technology, not even close.
r5 is using frame duplication to cover up blackout in the evf, which cripples your ability to track fast action in the evf.
Odinsoffphotography wrote:
Sony’s going to be in their sweet spot where their closest competiton is a crop sensor fuji xt4 for 1k less or 4k 120
i don't see how crop sensors compete with ff sensors.
fuji doesn't have stacked sensors, and fuji af is weak compared to sony af, so again no threat to what sony is doing.
p.62 #19 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
chez wrote:
BIF might be important to many on this board, but sports is probably more on the minds of Sony given their AP agreements and the Olympics next year. I feel we have a very slanted view towards shooting boards when in reality it makes up a very small portion of how the A9 is used.
Given the coronavirus pandemic is still booming around the world, and there is no real sign of it going away, I suspect the Tokyo Olympics might be cancelled rather than held in 2021. There is almost no competition level sports going on, and even fewer with audiences, and so I find it hard to see the business sense of putting a lot of effort into making cameras specifically to shoot sports. However, the A9 (II) obvious has other applications, such as weddings (also mostly cancelled) and wildlife (people in most countries are allowed to travel domestically, so I would argue that there is plenty of wildlife photography going on). Developing algorithms for animal detection seems like a perfectly valid way to increase sales in the current situation.
Aug 21, 2020 at 09:58 AM
Steve Spencer Online • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.62 #20 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
ilkka_nissila wrote:
Given the coronavirus pandemic is still booming around the world, and there is no real sign of it going away, I suspect the Tokyo Olympics might be cancelled rather than held in 2021. There is almost no competition level sports going on, and even fewer with audiences, and so I find it hard to see the business sense of putting a lot of effort into making cameras specifically to shoot sports. However, the A9 (II) obvious has other applications, such as weddings (also mostly cancelled) and wildlife (people in most countries are allowed to travel domestically, so I would argue that there is plenty of wildlife photography going on). Developing algorithms for animal detection seems like a perfectly valid way to increase sales in the current situation. ...Show more →
I think whether the Olympics happens next summer is totally dependent on whether there is a successful vaccine developed. There is reason to be cautiously optimistic there will be and if there is then I expect the Olympics to happen with at least as much fanfare as usual next summer. Over in North America, it looks like the four major professional sports leagues (basketball, American Football, baseball, and hockey) are all going to continue despite the pandemic (currently basketball and hockey are having their delayed playoffs, and baseball is having a shortened 50 games season, so far American Football is still scheduled to have a full Fall season). Most high school sports will be cancelled (but I expect that will vary by region), and college sports are cancelled in some regions (Midwest and West Coast in the US) and will continue in other regions (the Southern US and much of the East Coast). I doubt there will be spectators at any of these sports, however, although there will likely be a limited number of photographers. So in North America I expect a reduction in sports shooting during the pandemic, but not a complete absence.
As you say there is actually just as big a reduction in wedding photography, I believe. Weddings are very restricted in size in many North American jurisdictions, such that many couples opt for a simply ceremony for now with just a couple of witnesses with a larger celebration planned for after the pandemic. Other couples are just not getting married and cancelling their weddings altogether. It seems most of the simple ceremonies don't hire a photographer and if they do it is nothing like the whole day affair that was typical before the pandemic. So wedding photography has definitely been hit hard.
Wildlife photography has even been curtailed in North America as travel to many locations where people like to do wildlife photography have been slowed down greatly. These areas are often remote from population centers and not that reachable by car for a lot of people who visit them. So even that has slowed considerably, I believe.
So, slowing camera production of an A9 type camera makes sense to me even if that isn't what I want. I do have what I believe is a reasonable hope, however, that the pandemic will recede significantly be March or April of 2021 as one or more likely a few vaccines become available and widely administered.
) when I saw the R5 images. They reminded me how puny Canon's buttons have always been for AF-ON, * etc. Sony caught a lot of slack for their buttons until the A9II/A7RIV/A7SIII design. The only decent AF-ON button Canon has produced to date is on the 1DXIII (regardless if one finds the sensor useful or not). I may have forgotten how puny they are after using Nikon for awhile and now the A9II/A7RIV. One thing I was looking forward to with the R5 was better ergonomics but