p.61 #2 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
armd wrote:
Yes, I need directions to that PNW rainforest. All I ever see these days are the crazies burning down Portland and Seattle.
Yes, that sucks. I grew up in Beaverton and lived on the west side for over 50 years. We left Portland area 3 years ago due to several changes occurring. From southern Oregon, I get into rainforest by the coast every few weeks. I meet new friends there too from other countries, states, and locally. In the 2nd photo, the 4 guys on the left climb tall rainforest trees from Northern California up to British Columbia.
If R6's or R5's were fully stocked, I'd be using one there in a couple weeks. But likely by October. The big trees and rainforest are ideal for high resolution bodies and big prints. Here at home office, I'm surrounded by 30 inch to 48 inch prints from the redwood coast.
p.61 #3 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
RoamingScott wrote:
ISO 3200, horizontal banding in the shadows starts at less than +3 exposure...previously we thought the banding was relegated to higher ISOs. Unclear if elec. shutter was used in this image or not, but still highly disappointing.
My version of exiftool does not show any tag related to what kind of shutter mode is being used,
but the banding is visible in the ISO 51200 exposure, jpg. This is highly indicative of ES being used, as we don't see any banding in other 51200 test images.
Regarding the noise level, long exposure noise reduction is enabled in these images. We don't know how it would look without, but LENR does double the random noise in quadrature, as adding and subtracting random noise has the same effect. LENR should be used carefully, sometimes it just makes things worse.
Reagrding comparison to Sony, anecdotal comparisons are not very helpful, as the conditions may be very different.The general dynamic range at high ISO should be among the best for the R5 according to measurements and other test images, and the raw files are not baked in high ISO.
In any case, thank you for the heads up, this is something to be aware of. I am concerned about long exposures with the R5, and the negative effect of electronic shutter on tthe dynamic range.
p.61 #4 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
R5 kit and adapter arrived today. Initial impressions with respect to stills?
1) Build construction no where near as nice as an a7riv or a9ii - it feels like a mini-5dmkiv with the buttons squashed together. I prefer the shutter release on Canon cameras though the button quality is not as good as Sony's IMHO. The thumb wheel is rinky dink in comparison, feels stiff, and is featureless. Adapter is clunky and large.
2) EVF very nice - too bright at first, will need to adjust. No appreciable blackout in HI+ in electronic or first curtain. Am trying to warm up to the shutter sound.
3) LCD - not sure I like the flip out screen; feels kind of lame and gives a weird look to the body. I am sure it is very handy especially for video. Very nice color/contrast. Excellent touch screen and features.
4) Menus - extensive though miss the greater customization of the Sony
5) AF - still working through it and figuring out how to customize appropriately. A bit more sticky than the a7riv, though I need to compare it to the a9 especially with BIF. Was using it tonight at twilight though I am hesitant to pass any judgement.
6) IQ - hard to assess because I was shooting at 12800 though the IBIS was impressive. Was handholding 500 mm lens + TC shooting wide open at f/5.6, 1/500 sec and it was sharp, sharp, sharp. Colors are typical Canon. Noise very controllable and amenable to NR.
Overall, if I were a Sony user and had a 600 f/4 and a9(ii)/a7riv I would take a deep breath, not worry and go on enjoying your gear. In other words, don't buy into the hype and I probably wouldn't sell or switch. For Canon users, it's a welcome refresh and for those of us with a lot of EF glass, it is a very intriguing camera with extremely good qualities. A Sony killer? I think not though it raises the challenge bar for Sony.
p.61 #5 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
armd wrote:
R5 kit and adapter arrived today. Initial impressions with respect to stills?
1) Build construction no where near as nice as an a7riv or a9ii - it feels like a mini-5dmkiv with the buttons squashed together.
Did you have an EOS R? Because when I got the EOS R, it had that feel to it at first, but I was judging by size, and the size was actually what I preferred.
One of the first things that moved my attention to the R5 from the R6 was the R5 having a magnesium alloy body and chassis. I didn't realize the EOS R had a magnesium body until I found the R6 had a magnesium chassis. Apparently the A7R iv and A9 have magnesium chassis .. I'm guessing the bodies do also.
p.61 #6 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
mdvaden wrote:
Did you have an EOS R? Because when I got the EOS R, it had that feel to it at first, but I was judging by size, and the size was actually what I preferred.
One of the first things that moved my attention to the R5 from the R6 was the R5 having a magnesium alloy body and chassis. I didn't realize the EOS R had a magnesium body until I found the R6 had a magnesium chassis. Apparently the A7R iv and A9 have magnesium chassis .. I'm guessing the bodies do also.
No, I skipped the R as it didn’t interest me and I moved to Sony. Kept my Canon dslr’s and ef lenses. The Sony cameras just feel like precision machined parts and the buttons on the a9ii and a7riv are solid and responsive. The R5 wheel felt clunky and gritty and it lacks the multifunction capabilities of the Sony. I am finding the Canon buttons particularly on the right side small an difficult to find and press. Perhaps with time it will get better?
p.61 #7 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
To be fair, it has taken Sony 4 generations to get nice, chunky, solid feelings buttons.
armd wrote:
No, I skipped the R as it didn’t interest me and I moved to Sony. Kept my Canon dslr’s and ef lenses. The Sony cameras just feel like precision machined parts and the buttons on the a9ii and a7riv are solid and responsive. The R5 wheel felt clunky and gritty and it lacks the multifunction capabilities of the Sony. I am finding the Canon buttons particularly on the right side small an difficult to find and press. Perhaps with time it will get better?
p.61 #9 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
The buttons were the one thing that stuck out (actually didn't stick out) when I saw the R5 images. They reminded me how puny Canon's buttons have always been for AF-ON, * etc. Sony caught a lot of slack for their buttons until the A9II/A7RIV/A7SIII design. The only decent AF-ON button Canon has produced to date is on the 1DXIII (regardless if one finds the sensor useful or not). I may have forgotten how puny they are after using Nikon for awhile and now the A9II/A7RIV. One thing I was looking forward to with the R5 was better ergonomics but maybe that isn't going to be the case??
I get to finally shoot the R5 this weekend so I'm excited to see if the hype is real or not.
The things that interest me with the R5 are:
1) AED....can it automatically get on birds in cluttered surroundings or just faster in general even in good surroundings?
2) Top screen LCD (I miss this a lot)
3) Better ergonomics with a bigger grip? buttons?
4) Ability to always have my upper control wheels do ISO and SS and not Aperture
5) Large selection of used EF super-tele glass
But the more I get myself past the hype phase, my GAS is diminishing for this camera. This weekend with it in my hands will be the deciding factor (as it should be). We shall see....just hope I can find enough challenging subjects to get a handle on AF speed and accuracy.
p.61 #11 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
arbitrage wrote:
The buttons were the one thing that stuck out (actually didn't stick out) when I saw the R5 images. They reminded me how puny Canon's buttons have always been for AF-ON, * etc. Sony caught a lot of slack for their buttons until the A9II/A7RIV/A7SIII design. The only decent AF-ON button Canon has produced to date is on the 1DXIII (regardless if one finds the sensor useful or not). I may have forgotten how puny they are after using Nikon for awhile and now the A9II/A7RIV. One thing I was looking forward to with the R5 was better ergonomics but maybe that isn't going to be the case??
I get to finally shoot the R5 this weekend so I'm excited to see if the hype is real or not.
The things that interest me with the R5 are:
1) AED....can it automatically get on birds in cluttered surroundings or just faster in general even in good surroundings?
2) Top screen LCD (I miss this a lot)
3) Better ergonomics with a bigger grip? buttons?
4) Ability to always have my upper control wheels do ISO and SS and not Aperture
5) Large selection of used EF super-tele glass
But the more I get myself past the hype phase, my GAS is diminishing for this camera. This weekend with it in my hands will be the deciding factor (as it should be). We shall see....just hope I can find enough challenging subjects to get a handle on AF speed and accuracy....Show more →
I haven't used the R5, but I reviewed the R and own the RP....I'm hoping the R5 leans more towards the RP buttons (and improves on them), as I found the R buttons to be inconsistenet in feel. The RP buttons all feel nice, though they aren't quite as big as the giant A7R IV AF-ON button, but they feel pretty nice. The hand hold and feel is a big step up on the Canon side, though, and I'd expect that to continue. The R felt wonderful in the hand, my RP feels wonderful in the hand, and I'd expect the R5 and R6 to feel wonderful in the hand. Canon's recent designs really sculpt where your hand goes and it feels extremely natural and I have a lot less fatigue in my hands (I have some nerve issues that can cause my hand to lose feeling for a little bit if in a cramped position for too long...and I get that when out shooting with my A7R IV for a while...I don't get it on my RP).
I think that one of the other biggest things with the Canon grips is that they are a good distance from the mount, where Sony's grips are right up against the mount, even the R IV has this issue despite being an improvement from the mark III bodies in this respect. I still get fingers a bit pinched with my Samyang 85/1.4 or other large lenses. The Canon grips are never cramped, even with the giant RF lenses like the 85/1.2 and 28-70/2.
It's one area where Canon really has a leg up, IMO. I do wish they allowed for more customizable buttons, though....they can be programmed, but not every function can be assigned to a button.
p.61 #12 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Jman13 wrote:
I haven't used the R5, but I reviewed the R and own the RP....I'm hoping the R5 leans more towards the RP buttons (and improves on them), as I found the R buttons to be inconsistenet in feel. The RP buttons all feel nice, though they aren't quite as big as the giant A7R IV AF-ON button, but they feel pretty nice. The hand hold and feel is a big step up on the Canon side, though, and I'd expect that to continue. The R felt wonderful in the hand, my RP feels wonderful in the hand, and I'd expect the R5 and R6 to feel wonderful in the hand. Canon's recent designs really sculpt where your hand goes and it feels extremely natural and I have a lot less fatigue in my hands (I have some nerve issues that can cause my hand to lose feeling for a little bit if in a cramped position for too long...and I get that when out shooting with my A7R IV for a while...I don't get it on my RP).
It's one area where Canon really has a leg up, IMO. I do wish they allowed for more customizable buttons, though....they can be programmed, but not every function can be assigned to a button. ...Show more →
I prefer Sony with e.g. RRS base plate. Most comfortable to me. I want to be able to have three wheels to quickly select SS, aperture and iso, too. On the Canon bodies I disliked the wheel positions, esp. the lower wheel on the back, too far down. They only had two in addition.
I often carry the cameras non-stop for 12h at weddings (mostly one with Sigma 35/1.2 attached). I never had problems with the newer Sony bodies similar to the ones I had with the 5div for example. I guess this to be very subjective, but in fact important if you need to shoot for long stretches of time. If you need to hold the camera constantly and you prefer the Canon ergonomics, that would be an important reason to switch.
The buttons on the A9ii/A7riv are fantastic in my opinion.
It appears that the overheating issue, while not visible to the user via warnings or shut downs, is actually rearing its head in the ACTUAL FILES. His conclusions about the build it noise reduction being necessary are interesting.
"I want to add one more important finding when it comes to long exposures. The amount of hot pixels and noise in such a photo taken with the R5 will be worse, the longer you have the camera turned on in advance to taking the long exposure. For the test above I was browsing the menus for some time before I started taking the long exposures, with the eight minute exposure being the last photo I took.
I repeated the test where I turned on the camera after having it sit for several hours and directly taking a single long exposure. This one showed much less long exposure noise – still not as good as the other cameras I have tested, but at least the light reddish glow you see in the comparison above was gone.
This is something to be aware of – especially if you take photos around sunset. You usually start with shorter exposures and as it gets dark the exposure times get longer. Unfortunately though, the camera will warm up in the process. This means Long Exposure NR might be necessary even earlier, when taking one minute exposures or less – only time out in the field will tell."
The amount of tiptoeing around heat one must do, and all the random variables one must remember to consider with the R5 make it half-baked product, and truly not one that can be fully trusted in the field. This one needed more time in the oven, no pun intended.
p.61 #15 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Day 2 observations. Managed to plop the 500 IS II on a tripod and was shooting in decent, early evening oblique angle lighting. In the past, I've found Canon struggles the most in this kind as well as near back light. Additionally, I had the 1.4x and 2x TC. I haven't had any BIF to shoot yet, so these are observations of large, mostly static subjects including a pair of Sandies approximately 30-40 yards away and a GBH around 100 yards distant. ISO 800, Tv's 1/800-1000.
1) Had to change case values today. Canon uses "cases" which describe the AF along with case values for tracking sensitivity and acel/decel sensitivity. Case 1 is the default and I had to turn both down 1 notch. The AF is a bit "twitchy" and this calmed things down to acceptable levels.
2) The eye tracking is solid out past 30-40 yards with the Sandies and it was simply amazing whether I used the 1.4 or 2x tc. It instantaneously locked on to the eye and followed much like the videos have demonstrated and when the bird would preen the eye box jumped to a larger head box and back again once the eye was visible.
3) Beyond that distance, the eye tracking pooped out - makes sense - and with the 2x (1000mm) on the GBH at around 100 yards, it was unable to lock on. AF with spot was equally unreliable with a tendency to BF (where have we seen that before - 200-600?)
4) The e-shutter for static subjects is simply amazing! 20 FPS, it's almost movie like and it reminded me of the a9 - EVERYTHING WAS IN FOCUS! I managed to fill the buffer and with no black out or indication of how many frames I was taking, the buffer filled with a 150mbs SD card within about 2 seconds. Dangerous and much better than an a7riv. Like I said, it was a9 like.
5) The 2x TC still sucks on the 500 f/4 IS II though it is much better than with a DSLR.
6) IQ is simply stunning and it's closer to the a7riv in terms of resolution than the a9.
7) Need to figure out whether I can duplicate the zebras that I used to use in Sony and have to figure out how to turn off the back display which pops on every time I take my eye away from the viewfinder (like I did on my Sony)
8) Need to find some BIF and figure out how to manage this. I'll have to experiment with zone, or try eye tracking, and play around with the cases to optimize results.
9) Still don't like the buttons. The AF-on which I use for BBF is too small and it's kind of buried a bit and is not as distinct as I would like, the adjacent * which I use to turn on the eye tracking is awkwardly located over the thumb ridge and is too small and too close to the button next to it. I must say, I really like the Sony button lay out better; more intuitive and more functional for me including the multipurpose wheel. Will need to adjust and tweak a bit more.
p.61 #16 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
armd wrote:
No, I skipped the R as it didn’t interest me and I moved to Sony. Kept my Canon dslr’s and ef lenses. The Sony cameras just feel like precision machined parts and the buttons on the a9ii and a7riv are solid and responsive. The R5 wheel felt clunky and gritty and it lacks the multifunction capabilities of the Sony. I am finding the Canon buttons particularly on the right side small an difficult to find and press. Perhaps with time it will get better?
Your post gave that impression. Because it could seem more so for someone not having used the EOS R prior to the R5.
I read a review at the link below. First time through I skimmed past the build quality comparison. But happened to reread. He came to the opposite conclusion from you earlier reply about build quality, based on weather and handling. He used both the Sony A7R iv and Canon EOS R5
p.61 #17 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
mdvaden wrote:
Your post gave that impression. Because it could seem more so for someone not having used the EOS R prior to the R5.
I read a review at the link below. First time through I skimmed past the build quality comparison. But happened to reread. He came to the opposite conclusion from you earlier reply about build quality, based on weather and handling. He used both the Sony A7R iv and Canon EOS R5
Personally, I cover my bodies with umbrellas, but sometimes mist angles it's way onto my bodies.
Read through the perspective and perhaps as a quirky, landscape photographer that made sense though his car analogies were way off. For a wildlife photographer who has to rapidly change modes, I found the Sony more interactive and the buttons more solid and responsive. Yes, the R5 has a magnesium body though as I observed the buttons are small, plastic, and don’t provide positive tactile feedback. I haven’t seen any camera weather sealing torture tests so his comments are wholly speculative. The lens mount issues were full of hyperbole and I never encountered such problems. Everyone’s anatomy and preferences are different and some will find the Canon fits and feels better whereas others will prefer the Sony. FWIW, I’ve shot nearly every Canon body and particularly loved all my 1d series. While this camera is amazing in many ways and the technology is awesome, my opinion is that the styling is traditional Canon (dated) and the layout and components could have been more ergonomic. We can agree that I’ve always preferred Canon color.
p.61 #18 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
That guy sounds like a huge drama queen. What a dumb, shilly article.
mdvaden wrote:
Your post gave that impression. Because it could seem more so for someone not having used the EOS R prior to the R5.
I read a review at the link below. First time through I skimmed past the build quality comparison. But happened to reread. He came to the opposite conclusion from you earlier reply about build quality, based on weather and handling. He used both the Sony A7R iv and Canon EOS R5
p.61 #19 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
armd wrote:
Read through the perspective and perhaps as a quirky, landscape photographer that made sense though his car analogies were way off. For a wildlife photographer who has to rapidly change modes, I found the Sony more interactive and the buttons more solid and responsive. Yes, the R5 has a magnesium body though as I observed the buttons are small, plastic, and don’t provide positive tactile feedback.
It may be that touch screens on cameras and devices these days, and habits of skilled photographers, lessen the realm of "tactile" feedback.
For example, looking into a viewfinder during a wedding ...... not CHIMPING ..... if someone pushes a focus button for selection points, they will see it in the screen. No need to feel a click. When a wheel is rolled, they see the aperture number or eposure meter move.
Screens have no tactile feedback. Smoother than the smoothest skin. Today, thumbing my screen for a macro focus point, it could be seen in the EVF.
It appears that the overheating issue, while not visible to the user via warnings or shut downs, is actually rearing its head in the ACTUAL FILES. His conclusions about the build it noise reduction being necessary are interesting.
"I want to add one more important finding when it comes to long exposures. The amount of hot pixels and noise in such a photo taken with the R5 will be worse, the longer you have the camera turned on in advance to taking the long exposure. For the test above I was browsing the menus for some time before I started taking the long exposures, with the eight minute exposure being the last photo I took.
I repeated the test where I turned on the camera after having it sit for several hours and directly taking a single long exposure. This one showed much less long exposure noise – still not as good as the other cameras I have tested, but at least the light reddish glow you see in the comparison above was gone.
This is something to be aware of – especially if you take photos around sunset. You usually start with shorter exposures and as it gets dark the exposure times get longer. Unfortunately though, the camera will warm up in the process. This means Long Exposure NR might be necessary even earlier, when taking one minute exposures or less – only time out in the field will tell."
The amount of tiptoeing around heat one must do, and all the random variables one must remember to consider with the R5 make it half-baked product, and truly not one that can be fully trusted in the field. This one needed more time in the oven, no pun intended....Show more →
) when I saw the R5 images. They reminded me how puny Canon's buttons have always been for AF-ON, * etc. Sony caught a lot of slack for their buttons until the A9II/A7RIV/A7SIII design. The only decent AF-ON button Canon has produced to date is on the 1DXIII (regardless if one finds the sensor useful or not). I may have forgotten how puny they are after using Nikon for awhile and now the A9II/A7RIV. One thing I was looking forward to with the R5 was better ergonomics but maybe that isn't going to be the case??
