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Archive 2020 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

  
 
Maxxus46
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p.55 #1 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


You coold join the A9 forum on FB and ask. I'm no longer interested in the Canon. Already invested in A9ii and very pleased. Take care

JohnDizzo15 wrote:
---------------------------------------------

So did he say anything about how it compares to the A7R4? The focus of the statement seems to be relative to the A9ii.

Comparing it to the A9 is way further out in the realm of apples to oranges comparisons as it has a stacked full frame sensor that remains unmatched by the entirety of the camera market to this day. Precisely why I have kept mine.

At present, I'm not looking for a 40+ megapixel body to match AF and tracking performance with my 24mp A9. I just want something better than I had in the R3, hopefully comparable to
...Show more



Aug 13, 2020 at 06:50 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.55 #2 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


Holger wrote:
German Website:
"mit einer bahnbrechenden Videoperformance, die neu definiert, was Filmemacher von einer derart kleinen Kamera erwarten können."
The EOS R5 continues that tradition with a groundbreaking video performance that redefines what filmmakers can expect from such a small camera.

Canon Europe

"Revolutionising videography. Again."

"At Canon we’re proud of the part we’ve played in transforming filmmaking, with products like our EOS 5D series of DSLRs and Cinema EOS cameras and lenses. The EOS R5 continues this legacy, with ground-breaking video performance that redefines what filmmakers should expect from a small camera."

"A professional full-frame mirrorless flagship camera offering photographers and filmmakers high resolution stills and
...Show more

Like I suggested earlier, they seem to be marketing the camera to different people and in different places in different ways. I don't see how any of that is surprising.

As I also said earlier, I don't think as a video centric camera it stands up that well against the Sony A7s III. Certainly not for my uses. I suppose some--particularly those who use an external monitor or who shoot very short clips--may find it to be a compelling camera, but even then some (I count myself here as I typically use an external monitor when shooting video) are likely to find the A7s III more useful.

As a high megapixel fast action camera, I think it occupies a fairly unique space at the moment. If you haven't noticed on the Sony forum here, people have been clamoring for a high megapixel A9 type camera, often called the A9r. This camera certainly has some issues (much slower sensor read out than ideal causing rolling shutter distortion, loss of fps when the battery level drops, loss of low ISO DR when using the electronic shutter) even in such a use case, but I think it comes closer to that sort of camera than anything else that has come along so far. I can see why it would be interesting to people who have wanted a camera like that. I think marketed in a way that highlights that sort of use, the camera could still find a quite decent market. Definitely not my cup of tea, but I think it may well be a blend people want.

If Sony makes an A9r with a stacked BSI 42MP sensor, then that would be, IMO, the camera to compare to this Canon R5. I think the Sony would likely be a clearly better camera as the sensor readout would be faster allowing the electronic shutter to work considerably better. I also think the sensor specs on such a camera would likely be better. Sony still should improve the mechanical shutter over the one in the A7r IV and A9 II, however, to keep up with the Canon. For Sony shooters, I think one of the good things to come out of the launch of the Canon R5 is that Sony might build the A9r sooner, and it might be a better camera because Canon made the R5. It likely will have to be close in price too. I think a lot of Sony shooters would love that A9r and love even more that they can get it for probably less than $4,000.



Aug 13, 2020 at 08:44 AM
mdvaden
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p.55 #3 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


nhsonyshooter wrote:
One was clearly a stills camera and the other was clearly a hybrid focused more on video specs.


The fact that both have lots of specs in both genres can denote otherwise.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/compare/Canon_R5_vs_Sony_A9_II_vs_Sony_A7R_IV_vs_Canon_EOS_R/BHitems/1547009-REG_1509600-REG_1494679-REG_1433710-REG

Actually, features like the stills frame rate seem to put that theory to rest.



Steve Spencer wrote:
This is the first paragraph from the overview description of the camera on the Canon US website:

"The EOS R5 builds off of the powerful legacy of Canon’s full frame cameras offering next generation refinements in image quality, performance and reliability. It’s an ideal choice for a large range of photographic and cinematographic environments from weddings, portraits, sports, journalism, landscape, cinematography and more. "

I think that paragraph provides a good sense of how they are marketing the camera. Yeah, video is mentioned but it is not the only thing by any stretch that is mentioned and it is not mentioned
...Show more

The specs also follow that line of thought.

Most people will be buying both for photos too, regardless of how many video heads consider one or the other. Most reviews on Youtube tend to be video heads because Youtube is video. When number of purchases is tallied, the photo side is going to dominate.

The R5 also competes with the A7R iv sales for resolution. Because there's people moving from the 5DSR right now to the R5. It's because plenty of photographers are looking for something in the 50 MP range more so than 61 MP or 75 MP. And the Sony A7R iv covers the 50 MP range.

Only a handful seem to reach for the 100 MP goal line.





Edited on Aug 13, 2020 at 09:23 AM · View previous versions



Aug 13, 2020 at 09:06 AM
Holger
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p.55 #4 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


Steve Spencer wrote:
Like I suggested earlier, they seem to be marketing the camera to different people and in different places in different ways. I don't see how any of that is surprising.

As I also said earlier, I don't think as a video centric camera it stands up that well against the Sony A7s III. Certainly not for my uses. I suppose some--particularly those who use an external monitor or who shoot very short clips--may find it to be a compelling camera, but even then some (I count myself here as I typically use an external monitor when shooting video) are
...Show more

"If you haven't noticed on the Sony forum here, people have been clamoring for a high megapixel A9 type camera, often called the A9r. "
I think this to be a small subset of shooters, being more represented in enthusiast BIF forums, not the typical kind of user for this kind of camera. As a wedding guy 24 MP is fine, the majority of sports shooters (and the A9ii,/1dxiii/D5/D6 are aiming at that market, too) tend to prefer smaller numbers, too, having to send and prepare files quickly. BIF-guys like to crop as only few tend to pay big $ for fast 400/500/600/800mm lenses. But the A7riv is no slouch, here, too.

I find the mechanical shutter excellent on the A9ii/A7riv in use. Very quiet and well damped for a life expectancy of 500k images and a flash sync of 1/250s (vs. only 300k on the r5 and flash sync of 1/200s if I read it correctly, link below).
You probably mean allowing higher fps, 12 instead of 10, though?
Nevertheless, the mechanical shutter on the R5 comes with a lot of footnotes (fps depends on battery type, battery charge, number of batteries, lens, temperature, WLAN function (on/off) and the use of a battery grip, DC/USB power adapter).
So I think the mechanical shutter on the A9ii/A7riv to be fine.

https://www.apotelyt.com/compare-camera/canon-r5-review



Aug 13, 2020 at 09:20 AM
JohnDizzo15
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p.55 #5 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


Holger wrote:
If one is already invested in Sony, I don't see a good reason to switch to the R5, instead of upgrading to the A7riv, if photos are a priority. The A7riv is an excellent camera and the much much cheaper route (we upgraded from the A7r3), if you already have a bunch of Sony/Sigma/Zeiss glass. Going for the new R lenses, additionally, will be super expensive.

The new Sigma lenses give you the best possible for your bucks for landscapes in the 14-24 DN. If you want to go lighter use the Batis 18, Sony 20/1.8 or Loxia 21. You have
...Show more

Fully aware of all those very valid points and I don't disagree with the lines of reasoning behind most of it. But I've already stated above what my reasons are for preferring the R5 as my high res option versus the A7R4.

I already had many of the Sony lenses that you mentioned which I have now very recently dumped along with the A7R3 which funded the Canon RF 28-70 and 50 (and placeholder RP to play with the RF lenses for now). I've also kept the A9 along with a few lenses which includes the Sigma 35/1.2.

As stated previously, I still have a decent cache of EF lenses which I love, and would love to use across multiple systems. I also wanted to be able to use them all on at least one body without caveats which the Sony's have all had so far on those particular lenses.

As pictured below, this is just a small peek at how my systems mesh together and could be used depending on the particular needs of the day. I have native stuff for each system that I love, along with EF glass to fill in gaps across all of the systems as needed. In particular, the Sigma 105/1.4, 20/1.4, 100-400 and a Canon EF 300/2.8 (all work well enough adapted to Sony for certain applications but....) have given me plenty of frustration at times when adapted to my Sony and Fuji bodies. With the R5, I will have access to at least one body that requires no caveats with those lenses when it is needed/desired. If I don't need them to be functioning at 100%, they do work well enough on the Sony (some on the Fuji) for certain applications since I have been doing so anyway with them.
RF kit arrived - quick size comparison of a few of my favorite tools by Johndizzo15, on Flickr

Lastly, there is also the tinker factor for some of us that is often forgotten. There's plenty of hobbyists out here (like myself and many of my buddies) that are more focused on what works best with the things that we like (with less focus on cost efficiency). Many of us also find certain aspects of multiple systems compelling and fully recognize that different tools do better for certain applications while also recognizing that no one system is king.



Aug 13, 2020 at 09:30 AM
Holger
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p.55 #6 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


JohnDizzo15 wrote:
Fully aware of all those very valid points and I don't disagree with the lines of reasoning behind most of it. But I've already stated above what my reasons are for preferring the R5 as my high res option versus the A7R4.

I already had many of the Sony lenses that you mentioned which I have now very recently dumped along with the A7R3 which funded the Canon RF 28-70 and 50 (and placeholder RP to play with the RF lenses for now). I've also kept the A9 along with a few lenses which includes the Sigma 35/1.2.

As stated
...Show more

Ok, I see you are already well invested in both systems, so for you it is no problem and you can pick up a body to your liking. Very nice. Good luck with your decision.
In real life, I don't think differences will be large enough regarding IQ for most purposes (and I don't know what the NR Canon applies below iso 600 means for real life shooting (B. Claff mentions that amounts to 2/3 stops https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4508716?page=8) vs. Sony's star eater), it will break down to personal preference, lens choice, etc.



Aug 13, 2020 at 09:35 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.55 #7 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


Holger wrote:
"If you haven't noticed on the Sony forum here, people have been clamoring for a high megapixel A9 type camera, often called the A9r. "
I think this to be a small subset of shooters, being more represented in enthusiast BIF forums, not the typical kind of user for this kind of camera. As a wedding guy 24 MP is fine, the majority of sports shooters (and the A9ii,/1dxiii/D5/D6 are aiming at that market, too) tend to prefer smaller numbers, too, having to send and prepare files quickly. BIF-guys like to crop as only few tend to pay big $ for
...Show more

The flash sync speed of the R5 is 1/200 if you use the full mechanical shutter, but you get 1/250 if you use electronic first curtain:

https://www.canon-europe.com/cameras/eos-r5/specifications/

Also the-digital-picture.com (I couldn't find it on any Canon official site) reports the durability of the Canon R5 shutter as 500,000 clicks:

https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Camera-Specifications.aspx?Camera=1508

I was suggesting that Sony should up the mechanical shutter speed to 12fps, but you are right there are way too many caveats to the R5 shutter speed. Hopefully Sony can avoid those as they go up to 12 fps.



Aug 13, 2020 at 09:49 AM
mogul
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p.55 #8 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


Steve Spencer wrote:
The flash sync speed of the R5 is 1/200 if you use the full mechanical shutter, but you get 1/250 if you use electronic first curtain:

https://www.canon-europe.com/cameras/eos-r5/specifications/

Also the-digital-picture.com (I couldn't find it on any Canon official site) reports the durability of the Canon R5 shutter as 500,000 clicks:

https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Camera-Specifications.aspx?Camera=1508

I was suggesting that Sony should up the mechanical shutter speed to 12fps, but you are right there are way too many caveats to the R5 shutter speed. Hopefully Sony can avoid those as they go up to 12 fps.


Their A mount cameras from the 77 onward had 12fps as normal. The aps-c 6000 series was locked in at 11fps, while the 7 series was 10. Only the stacked sensors broke the mold (1" 24fps, FF 20fps).



Aug 13, 2020 at 11:13 AM
Holger
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p.55 #9 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


Steve Spencer wrote:
The flash sync speed of the R5 is 1/200 if you use the full mechanical shutter, but you get 1/250 if you use electronic first curtain:

https://www.canon-europe.com/cameras/eos-r5/specifications/

Also the-digital-picture.com (I couldn't find it on any Canon official site) reports the durability of the Canon R5 shutter as 500,000 clicks:

https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Camera-Specifications.aspx?Camera=1508

I was suggesting that Sony should up the mechanical shutter speed to 12fps, but you are right there are way too many caveats to the R5 shutter speed. Hopefully Sony can avoid those as they go up to 12 fps.

Don't understand me wrong, if invested in Canon I would buy the R5/R6 for weddings immediately. We are nearing a phase where, as Thom Hogan always told us, the leap-frogging between the big three (big two during the dslr era) begins again.



Aug 13, 2020 at 12:00 PM
fadeslayer
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p.55 #10 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


JohnDizzo15 wrote:
Fully aware of all those very valid points and I don't disagree with the lines of reasoning behind most of it. But I've already stated above what my reasons are for preferring the R5 as my high res option versus the A7R4.

I already had many of the Sony lenses that you mentioned which I have now very recently dumped along with the A7R3 which funded the Canon RF 28-70 and 50 (and placeholder RP to play with the RF lenses for now). I've also kept the A9 along with a few lenses which includes the Sigma 35/1.2.

As stated
...Show more

If I remember correctly, though, with Canon in the past (I don't know if they solved this), Sigma lenses (even Art ones) had many and many AF problems, so I don't know if with RF bodies these problems (which were due to Sigma's forced reverse engineering on Canon's AF patterns) suddendly disappear (I am inclined to think not...), so I am not sure you would get any better experience (but, as said, I don't know if it's still valid)



Aug 13, 2020 at 12:43 PM
bjornthun
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p.55 #11 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


fadeslayer wrote:
If I remember correctly, though, with Canon in the past (I don't know if they solved this), Sigma lenses (even Art ones) had many and many AF problems, so I don't know if with RF bodies these problems (which were due to Sigma's forced reverse engineering on Canon's AF patterns) suddendly disappear (I am inclined to think not...), so I am not sure you would get any better experience (but, as said, I don't know if it's still valid)


Canon and Nikon do NOT license the specifications for the electronic communication between body and lenses for their new mirrorless full frame mounts. The others m43, Fuji X APS-C), Sony E/FE and Leica L do. Regarding Leica L mount, Leica licenses specs to Sigma and Panasonic. There’s no telling just how compatible a third party lens will be on Canon RF or on Nikon Z mount cameras, some functions may work, some not, or some fully or some partially. Another isdue a few years down the line, will a third party Z- or RF-mount lens be compatible with a body launched a few years after the lens itself.



Aug 13, 2020 at 12:56 PM
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p.55 #12 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


fadeslayer wrote:
If I remember correctly, though, with Canon in the past (I don't know if they solved this), Sigma lenses (even Art ones) had many and many AF problems, so I don't know if with RF bodies these problems (which were due to Sigma's forced reverse engineering on Canon's AF patterns) suddendly disappear (I am inclined to think not...), so I am not sure you would get any better experience (but, as said, I don't know if it's still valid)

bjornthun wrote:
Canon and Nikon do NOT license the specifications for the electronic communication between body and lenses for their new mirrorless full frame mounts. The others m43, Fuji X APS-C), Sony E/FE and Leica L do. Regarding Leica L mount, Leica licenses specs to Sigma and Panasonic. There’s no telling just how compatible a third party lens will be on Canon RF or on Nikon Z mount cameras, some functions may work, some not, or some fully or some partially. Another isdue a few years down the line, will a third party Z- or RF-mount lens be compatible with a body
...Show more

I have used Sigmas and a Tamron on Nikon DSLR. The main issue was that with DSLR there was a difference with what AF sensors sees and what image sensor sees. This difference was in part due to tolerances of mirror and its misalignment, but also and more importantly due to fact that AF sensor has its own extra aperture mask so any time lens has some focus shift (optimal focus is at different distance wide open vs. stopped down even though focus position stays) the lens needs some corrections. AF tuning could not be done for each aperture separately. Also color of light impacted optimal AF tune value (so flash emitting a red pattern for focusing in dark was even more impacted). I think that Nikon L firmware that contains lens correction could also correct for some of above issues. But Sigma did not have access to L firmware so this could be compensated only for Nikon lenses. Then another problem was compatibility with future bodies which was partly resolved by Sigma dock, but there is always risk that third party lens that works with current cameras will not work with future ones (or work badly).

Mirrorless cameras are not as impacted by AF issues and that applies mostly to third party lenses with adapters, but newer Z/RF protocols to connect lens directly without adapter are much more protected against third parties with patents, encryption and obfuscation. The future compatibility issue remains. Lens corrections limitations may still remain (e.g. Sigma 85/1.4 DN relies on distortion correction so without access to protocol communicated lens corrections without work badly for jpegs and video).

E-mount being open to Sigma was very important for me to switch to Sony from Nikon.



Aug 13, 2020 at 01:40 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.55 #13 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


Catchy song.




Aug 13, 2020 at 02:20 PM
1bwana1
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p.55 #14 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


Agree. Sony's willingness to license to third party lens makers is a big value add for Sony users.

I have some excellent Tamron lenses that perform at native levels, offer price and other advantages.

Edited on Aug 13, 2020 at 02:55 PM · View previous versions



Aug 13, 2020 at 02:21 PM
JohnDizzo15
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p.55 #15 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


fadeslayer wrote:
If I remember correctly, though, with Canon in the past (I don't know if they solved this), Sigma lenses (even Art ones) had many and many AF problems, so I don't know if with RF bodies these problems (which were due to Sigma's forced reverse engineering on Canon's AF patterns) suddendly disappear (I am inclined to think not...), so I am not sure you would get any better experience (but, as said, I don't know if it's still valid)


From my understanding, the RF adapters are just pass-throughs so there is no communication translation in the way that something like the Metabones, Sigma MC-11s, or Fringer adapters use. This would explain why at least in my limited testing of the EF lenses I have, work flawlessly (on the RP for now).

With regard to third party lenses having AF consistency issues with Canon bodies, that is definitely something I experienced (and couldn't solve even with the help of Reikan FoCal) during the DSLR days i.e. 5D3 with Sigma Art lenses back in the day. This was one of the very significant reasons I moved away from DSLR in the first place, since mirrorless is a whole different ball game as explained by jtra above.



Aug 13, 2020 at 02:39 PM
fadeslayer
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p.55 #16 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


So it's something to investigate...


Aug 13, 2020 at 03:03 PM
bjornthun
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p.55 #17 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


JohnDizzo15 wrote:
From my understanding, the RF adapters are just pass-throughs so there is no communication translation in the way that something like the Metabones, Sigma MC-11s, or Fringer adapters use. This would explain why at least in my limited testing of the EF lenses I have, work flawlessly (on the RP for now).

With regard to third party lenses having AF consistency issues with Canon bodies, that is definitely something I experienced (and couldn't solve even with the help of Reikan FoCal) during the DSLR days i.e. 5D3 with Sigma Art lenses back in the day. This was one of the very
...Show more

What additional functionallity is offered by the additional pins in the RF mount, and which camera functions requie them or in some way work better when the additional pins are used. Do control rings require the additional pins?



Aug 13, 2020 at 03:41 PM
JohnDizzo15
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p.55 #18 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


bjornthun wrote:
What additional functionallity is offered by the additional pins in the RF mount, and which camera functions requie them or in some way work better when the additional pins are used. Do control rings require the additional pins?


Not sure what additional functionality there is as a result of additional pins in the mount. But as far as the control ring adapter, I just compared it to the MB IV and MC-11 which all have 8 pins.

fadeslayer wrote:
So it's something to investigate...


Precisely the opposite as it appears the lenses I have are working well as I had hoped.



Aug 13, 2020 at 04:58 PM
vdo1
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p.55 #19 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


patotts wrote:
This is still the most epic thread I've ever started on FM


Good job, maybe you should start a similar one in the Nikon forum too.



Aug 13, 2020 at 05:24 PM
Craig Gillette
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p.55 #20 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6


bjornthun wrote:
What additional functionallity is offered by the additional pins in the RF mount, and which camera functions requie them or in some way work better when the additional pins are used. Do control rings require the additional pins?


Could some of them be spares? Added capacity for some future uses?



Aug 13, 2020 at 06:12 PM
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