p.21 #1 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
lightskyland wrote:
Does anyone who is not a camera reviewer care about in-camera RAW conversion?
It just depends on what extent and how robust we are talking. I wasn't even aware of it in the Canon system until Jman13 referenced in this thread.
Personally, it is one of my favorite things about the Fuji system which is why about 99% of the images coming out of them are JPEGs out of camera for my uses. It is definitely the exception when I have to pull a raw file off the card (usually only if I need to do some masking or the color correction is too heavy of a lift for the in cam tools). For all intents and purposes, it is literally a raw editor and converter in camera. While still limited relative to a full blown editor outside of the cam, it pretty much gives you all the essentials and even a slew of film simulations to go along with it.
To be able to do this amount of adjustment in cam would be a huge plus for me and I'm very pleased to hear that there is some version of this in the RF bodies.
With regard to the comments on the sensor performance, it appears that DxO (not that I fully trust their word) has issued an apology and correction to their initial test results for the 1DX mk3. They've now amended their findings to reflect that it has 14.5 stops of DR which means that R6 should theoretically be identical. As such, it would appear that it is pretty much on par with the current standard and I'd be surprised if the R5 would be lesser. I suppose we will find out soon enough though.
p.21 #2 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
I’m a longtime Sony shooter who’s had the A6000, A6300, A7II, A7RII, A7RIII, and now A7RIV with ~$11,000 in lenses. My biggest complaints about the RIV/system are as follows:
-Skintones/color science for portraits. Much less of an issue than in years past with older Sony bodies but I still prefer Canon in this regard (when shooting RAW). The biggest issue I’ve had is subtle greenish hues that I’ve always struggled to fully correct without negatively affecting other parts of the image.
-Startup lag.
-Menus. They’ve gotten better but are still not great.
-Rear LCD quality/brightness.
-AF has been good but could be better (well known 200-600mm + A7RIV AF issue has been driving me mad and this $2000 has been a paperweight since last summer).
-1080p 120fps quality is mediocre and doesn’t allow in-camera slow-mo review like my GH5.
-No 4K 60fps or 4K 120fps.
-A7RIV high ISO/low light was a step down from the A7RIII.
-Lenses are great but missing some things I’d love like f1.2 primes and f2 zooms.
-No full articulating flip screen (although I’m not sure I’d prefer it in every scenario as others have discussed)
-Touchscreen is terrible (I keep it off).
-Ergonomics are so-so but much better than previous iterations.
-Smartphone app is terrible for remote control.
-Limited setting adjustment while card is writing.
Reasons I pre-ordered the Canon R5:
-4K 120fps
-Condense photo (A7RIV) and video (GH5) cameras into one body/system.
-Lenses. There are pros and cons for each but I love several of the RF lenses on paper including the RF 70-200mm f2.8 (the compact size is incredible for travel), the 85mm f1.2 (I shoot wide-open often and this lens appears to be sharper and faster AF than the Sony 85mm f1.4 GM), the 28-70mm f2 (huge but perfect for almost any event where f2.8 was always a hair slow), the 15-35mm f2.8 (the Sony 16-35mm GM is one of my favorite lenses and 15mm is a welcome bonus), the upcoming 100-500mm (the Sony 200-600 takes up so much room in my bag that I often don’t bring it + the AF is currently unusable with the A7RIV until Sony fixes the widespread issue). Hoping for a 35mm f1.2 soon.
-AF performance remains to be seen but I’d be happy if it was on par with the A7RIV and happier if it was closer to the A9.
-High ISO I’m hoping to be better than the A7RIV or similar.
-Expecting EVF, touchscreen, menus, ergonomics to all be better than my A7RIV.
-Hoping to see a 35mm f1.2 released soon as I was going to buy the Sigma 35mm f1.2 recently.
-Hoping for some budget ultra-wide options soon (like Laowa 9mm or Voigtlander 10mm which I own)
Overall I do love the A7RIV and many things about the Sony system but the Canon R5 + RF lenses are compelling. The only negatives I see aside from cost are the slightly lower resolution, potentially worse dynamic range, and lack of better LOG profiles for video.
Unless I see some serious negative feedback in the next few weeks I’m all-in on Canon. Planning on ordering the 15-35mm f2.8 and 70-200mm f2.8 soon to get started. The 100-500mm is already on pre-order. Hoping I don’t regret it.
p.21 #3 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
AlphaPhotography wrote:
I’m a longtime Sony shooter who’s had the A6000, A6300, A7II, A7RII, A7RIII, and now A7RIV with ~$11,000 in lenses. My biggest complaints about the RIV/system are as follows:
-Skintones/color science for portraits. Much less of an issue than in years past with older Sony bodies but I still prefer Canon in this regard (when shooting RAW). The biggest issue I’ve had is subtle greenish hues that I’ve always struggled to fully correct without negatively affecting other parts of the image.
-Startup lag.
-Menus. They’ve gotten better but are still not great.
-Rear LCD quality/brightness.
-AF has been good but could be better (well known 200-600mm + A7RIV AF issue has been driving me mad and this $2000 has been a paperweight since last summer).
-1080p 120fps quality is mediocre and doesn’t allow in-camera slow-mo review like my GH5.
-No 4K 60fps or 4K 120fps.
-A7RIV high ISO/low light was a step down from the A7RIII.
-Lenses are great but missing some things I’d love like f1.2 primes and f2 zooms.
-No full articulating flip screen (although I’m not sure I’d prefer it in every scenario as others have discussed)
-Touchscreen is terrible (I keep it off).
-Ergonomics are so-so but much better than previous iterations.
-Smartphone app is terrible for remote control.
-Limited setting adjustment while card is writing.
Reasons I pre-ordered the Canon R5:
-4K 120fps
-Condense photo (A7RIV) and video (GH5) cameras into one body/system.
-Lenses. There are pros and cons for each but I love several of the RF lenses on paper including the RF 70-200mm f2.8 (the compact size is incredible for travel), the 85mm f1.2 (I shoot wide-open often and this lens appears to be sharper and faster AF than the Sony 85mm f1.4 GM), the 28-70mm f2 (huge but perfect for almost any event where f2.8 was always a hair slow), the 15-35mm f2.8 (the Sony 16-35mm GM is one of my favorite lenses and 15mm is a welcome bonus), the upcoming 100-500mm (the Sony 200-600 takes up so much room in my bag that I often don’t bring it + the AF is currently unusable with the A7RIV until Sony fixes the widespread issue). Hoping for a 35mm f1.2 soon.
-AF performance remains to be seen but I’d be happy if it was on par with the A7RIV and happier if it was closer to the A9.
-High ISO I’m hoping to be better than the A7RIV or similar.
-Expecting EVF, touchscreen, menus, ergonomics to all be better than my A7RIV.
-Hoping to see a 35mm f1.2 released soon as I was going to buy the Sigma 35mm f1.2 recently.
-Hoping for some budget ultra-wide options soon (like Laowa 9mm or Voigtlander 10mm which I own)
Overall I do love the A7RIV and many things about the Sony system but the Canon R5 + RF lenses are compelling. The only negatives I see aside from cost are the slightly lower resolution, potentially worse dynamic range, and lack of better LOG profiles for video.
Unless I see some serious negative feedback in the next few weeks I’m all-in on Canon. Planning on ordering the 15-35mm f2.8 and 70-200mm f2.8 soon to get started. The 100-500mm is already on pre-order. Hoping I don’t regret it....Show more →
I have almost the same thoughts. I will be very interested in your experience with the R5 and the new RF lenses. Keep us updated!! Not to worry about skintone gradation and the proven ergonomics and IBIS are the deciding aspects for me. In a very short intermezzo with Olympus I learnt to love IBIS for manual lens focusing.
Two things make me reluctant to pre-order (1) dynamic range, this was (is?) an annoying weakness of Canon, (2) size of the new RF lenses except for the exciting 70..200mm f2.8. This lens would be the first I would buy. The others are too big for me yet.
p.21 #4 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Some thoughts on the R6 after watching the video quick review on dpreview.
As a former canon shooter I'm very tempted by a whole lot of it. Body shape, ergonomics, menus, it's all so familiar and comfortable. 20 megapixels for someone who did most of their wedding/event work with a 5D and currently only uses 'character' legacy lenses, not a big deal. Heck 20 megapixels means that the use of the older (cheap) canon lenses that used to be my workhorses would not be an issue. The focusing and IBIS means that I would have far sharper results than I ever did shooting those lenses handheld back in the day. It's a really nice package for the non megapixel addicted shooter. (I am megapixel addicted in my current profession but for that 50 megapixels is just about enough )
But. I would be tempted at $1000-$1500. At the price of an A7rIII, I'll compromise on the ergonomics and nostalgia and take the megapixels thanks. I can always downrez if I need some of that old timey resolution 'look'. I have a feeling that the A74, even if it's still 24 megapixels, is going to make the R6 look like a nice option for the Canonites but certainly nothing more.
p.21 #6 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
The overheating issue for video is becoming a widely known limitation with this camera.
I am a primarily a stills shooter so that would have minimal impact on me. However there are more limitations that are beginning to emerge.
For high speed action shooting it looks like the electronic shutter is going to have significant rolling shutter issues with fast moving object. What is the point of 20 FPS on static subjects?
So, just switch to mechanical shutter and get 12 frames per second right? Well not exactly. You can only shoot at that speed depending an many circumstances. Including, temperature, which battery you are using, and how much charge is in that battery. If your battery is below 60% charge you max shutter speed falls off rather dramatically, can be as low as 3.9 FPS.
I am starting to get the feeling that many of the high performance features on this camera are there to make claims on spec sheets rather than being fully useful.
Like a cowboy who is all hat, and no cows?
Jul 17, 2020 at 10:32 AM
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p.21 #7 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
O/T, but ditto. In-camera raw conversion + the lovely Fuji film simulations are two of the things I loved most about that system.
JohnDizzo15 wrote:
It just depends on what extent and how robust we are talking. I wasn't even aware of it in the Canon system until Jman13 referenced in this thread.
Personally, it is one of my favorite things about the Fuji system which is why about 99% of the images coming out of them are JPEGs out of camera for my uses. It is definitely the exception when I have to pull a raw file off the card (usually only if I need to do some masking or the color correction is too heavy of a lift for the in cam tools). For all intents and purposes, it is literally a raw editor and converter in camera. While still limited relative to a full blown editor outside of the cam, it pretty much gives you all the essentials and even a slew of film simulations to go along with it.
To be able to do this amount of adjustment in cam would be a huge plus for me and I'm very pleased to hear that there is some version of this in the RF bodies.
With regard to the comments on the sensor performance, it appears that DxO (not that I fully trust their word) has issued an apology and correction to their initial test results for the 1DX mk3. They've now amended their findings to reflect that it has 14.5 stops of DR which means that R6 should theoretically be identical. As such, it would appear that it is pretty much on par with the current standard and I'd be surprised if the R5 would be lesser. I suppose we will find out soon enough though....Show more →
p.21 #8 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
I'm not sure why you gents are still debating this. The Canon has Canon colors, Canon menus, and Canon logo. The Sony has none of this thus Canon wins.
p.21 #9 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Because there needs to be some sort of pointless chatter and debate in the absence of professional sports
vdo1 wrote:
I'm not sure why you gents are still debating this. The Canon has Canon colors, Canon menus, and Canon logo. The Sony has none of this thus Canon wins.
p.21 #10 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Chris and Jordan from DPreview have their R6 initial review up. Again, great that Canon finally has a competitive offering but kind of mindblowing that it is competing with something like a Sony A7III which was released in Feburary 2018. And I'm with Jordan who hate the on/off button on the left side :-)
I'd be interested to hear more about the softness of the 20mp sensor. Color and AF system seemto be very competitive, IBIS as well.
Again, seems like a great camera, I'm happy for new photographers or existing Canon users, but certainly nothing to switch systems over.
p.21 #11 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
1bwana1 wrote:
The overheating issue for video is becoming a widely known limitation with this camera.
I am a primarily a stills shooter so that would have minimal impact on me. However there are more limitations that are beginning to emerge.
For high speed action shooting it looks like the electronic shutter is going to have significant rolling shutter issues with fast moving object. What is the point of 20 FPS on static subjects?
So, just switch to mechanical shutter and get 12 frames per second right? Well not exactly. You can only shoot at that speed depending an many circumstances. Including, temperature, which battery you are using, and how much charge is in that battery. If your battery is below 60% charge you max shutter speed falls off rather dramatically, can be as low as 3.9 FPS.
I am starting to get the feeling that many of the high performance features on this camera are there to make claims on spec sheets rather than being fully useful.
Like a cowboy who is all hat, and no cows?...Show more →
These were exactly the points I posted here after I saw Thom Hogan raise them, too, to demonstrate, that people need to read the footnotes and not hype before they didn't even check the camera performance.
It turns out a lot of things are probably not as well polished as they appeared due to marketing (I know, Sony does the same, it is not only happening in Canon land).
These are fine cameras, no doubt. But until all avantages/disadvantages are fully known, why would I preorder it with the goal to switch systems?
p.21 #12 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Never seen a Sony camera lose shutter speed if the battery isn't fully charged. And come to think of it, battery life on the R5 looks to be mediocre.
Jul 17, 2020 at 01:03 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.21 #13 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
1bwana1 wrote:
The overheating issue for video is becoming a widely known limitation with this camera.
I am a primarily a stills shooter so that would have minimal impact on me. However there are more limitations that are beginning to emerge.
For high speed action shooting it looks like the electronic shutter is going to have significant rolling shutter issues with fast moving object. What is the point of 20 FPS on static subjects?
So, just switch to mechanical shutter and get 12 frames per second right? Well not exactly. You can only shoot at that speed depending an many circumstances. Including, temperature, which battery you are using, and how much charge is in that battery. If your battery is below 60% charge you max shutter speed falls off rather dramatically, can be as low as 3.9 FPS.
I am starting to get the feeling that many of the high performance features on this camera are there to make claims on spec sheets rather than being fully useful.
Like a cowboy who is all hat, and no cows?...Show more →
thx for that link, looks like the emperor doesn't have any clothes ;-)
p.21 #14 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
vdo1 wrote:
5 years ago some of those "ambassadors" were arguing that any camera without a mirror / OVF can't be but a toy or just utter garbage. Now it seems that even their legendary big hands have shrinked and suddenly they are able to hold smaller cameras...
Canon use to say that lens based IS was the way to go, no need for IBIS.......
Brings our class leading IBIS. These high end features are great and they also illustrate exactly why I left Canon, they simply werent bringing it. I've been arguing for IBIS from Canon, well before Sony even existed, over a decade of precedence on Canon NOT willing to add what I deem necessary. I'm not going to keep a grudge with canon, but realistically, they are so far behind in the lenses I NEED to replace my Sony kit, because I do see the R6 as a slightly better camera than the 7iii. Slightly better isnt enough for me to switch in all honesty, especially with the A7iv imminent.
p.21 #15 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
1bwana1 wrote:
For high speed action shooting it looks like the electronic shutter is going to have significant rolling shutter issues with fast moving object. What is the point of 20 FPS on static subjects?
This claim has been made about a dozen times in this thread: that the electronic shutter won't be good for action. Where are people getting this? One person makes a claim, and then others repeat it as if it's a known fact. Canon's promo videos show the opposite: that the electronic shutter is good for action. For example, this video:
Jul 17, 2020 at 01:34 PM
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p.21 #16 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
NJPhotographer wrote:
This claim has been made about a dozen times in this thread: that the electronic shutter won't be good for action. Where are people getting this? One person makes a claim, and then others repeat it as if it's a known fact. Canon's promo videos show the opposite: that the electronic shutter is good for action. For example, this video:
there are obvious rolling shutter issues in just about all of those action shots.
it's just not showing up on the motorcycle that much, because when panning the bike, it's effectively a stationary object.
try freezing action with a fast shutter speed, not slow panning shutter speeds.
p.21 #17 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
NJPhotographer wrote:
This claim has been made about a dozen times in this thread: that the electronic shutter won't be good for action. Where are people getting this? One person makes a claim, and then others repeat it as if it's a known fact. Canon's promo videos show the opposite: that the electronic shutter is good for action. For example, this video:
the R6 has a faster readout speed than the R5, and I agree, it's good for action, but it's not great and can run into problems where the subject is in and out the frame very fast, for panning shots, it would work perfectly fine as the subject is designed to stay in the frame. You just need to be careful of the subject. Light banding will also be an issue, and that's why I'm only lukewarm on the e-shutter because I have to be mindful of these things. When you have a stacked sensor, you spray aware without a care in the world. One of my M43 cameras has a fast readout, like the R6, it it's certainly a huge step up compared to a slower readout like the R5, but it's not fool proof, and you can see the photog switch back and forth between eshutter and mechanical.
p.21 #18 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Another example, at 2:35 Samo Vidic appears to shoot this kayaker ok with electronic shutter:
?t=155
The e-shutter seems to be good enough for human action. Maybe not for spinning propellers, etc. These are promo videos, so it's something that impartial reviewers should test.
p.21 #19 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Any chance they would come up with a >60 MP variant any time soon? I remember some 5 years ago 80MP and 120MP sensors from them were rumoured to be "just around the corner".....
p.21 #20 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
NJPhotographer wrote:
Another example, at 2:35 Samo Vidic appears to shoot this kayaker ok with electronic shutter:
?t=155
The e-shutter seems to be good enough for human action. Maybe not for spinning propellers, etc. These are promo videos, so it's something that impartial reviewers should test.
I may just be more sensitive to distortion than most, but I find that E-shutters aren't even up to my standards for landscape images handheld as they often show distortion. This is easiest to see in a burst mode where you compare subsequent frames and some of the frames show distorted geometries versus others, due to slight camera movement during the sensor scan. Personally that drives me nuts, although admittedly will be less of an issue with a 1/50th second readout vs. the slower readouts on non-A9 Sony models.
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