p.5 #1 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
Juha Kannisto wrote:
About 1.5 weeks ago I got the CV 28/3.5 LTM (Silver / Chrome version) in great condition and now I'm enjoying that one on my A9 where it works surprisingly well (some weakness in extreme corners but it shines in close to mid distances and is also perfectly fine for infinity shots whenever perfect corners don't matter too much). I was surprised that it works so well since my previous experience with CV 28/3.5 Nikon S mount (same optics) on my A7r were pretty bad. I later sold the S mount version but had some remaining interest on the lens in LTM. The LTM versions have been quite difficult to get though (usually just available in Yahoo Japan auctions or eBay from time to time and hardly ever found in 2nd hand stores) and prices seem to go relatively high even for copies that are not in very good condition. ...Show more →
I remember the Color-Skopar 28/3.5 release—back when all C/V lenses were LTM and alu barrels. This 28mm was special because the barrel was chrome-plated brass in classic Leitz fashion. After going out of production, it was never revived and quickly became a collectable optic. I thought about picking one up but went the German route instead.
p.5 #2 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
Just like with the Zeiss ZM lenses, I've just found out that there are shims behind the CV 50/3.5 Heliar's rear mount and I was able to fix the issue with the infinity hard stop with the Leica M10 by removing one shim. (there were 2)
I will try posting some crops tomorrow. I wonder if the CV 35/1.2 III, CV 35/1.4 II and CV 28/2 have similar shims and are just as easy to adjust.
p.5 #3 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
rico wrote:
I remember the Color-Skopar 28/3.5 release—back when all C/V lenses were LTM and alu barrels. This 28mm was special because the barrel was chrome-plated brass in classic Leitz fashion. After going out of production, it was never revived and quickly became a collectable optic. I thought about picking one up but went the German route instead.
CV 50/2.5 Color-Skopar LTM is also chrome-plated brass and was first released 2002 April while 28/3.5 was released in May. Those were the last new regular production LTM releases from Cosina and both were discontinued in 2007. Also the 50/2.5 has become a collectible but it's still easier to find than 28/3.5. I also added the 50/2.5 to my set last week (Silver Chrome) to pair it with the 28/3.5 It seems to work pretty nicely on my A9 too.
p.5 #4 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
Juha Kannisto wrote:
CV 50/2.5 Color-Skopar LTM is also chrome-plated brass and was first released 2002 April while 28/3.5 was released in May. ...
Ah, interesting. All the buzz at the time was concentrated on the 50/1.5 Nokton. Besides being overshadowed by ASPH big brother, the dainty Color-Skopar was competing against a million other LTM 50mm primes from across the decades. I already owned the Elmars 50/3.5 RS LTM and 50/2.8 M, not to mention the Summilux M.
p.5 #8 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
According to the crops above. (tested 3 times for accuracy), the Voigt 21/1.4 Nokton VM has issues with Sony's thicker sensor stack and this was expected for such fast wide lens.
The VM version of this lens performs just as good on the Leica as the E-mount does on the Sony. However, when using the VM version on the Sony, expect induced field curvature at the extreme corners. The good news is that center and mid-field are just as good on both systems. Only at f/8, the VM performs optimally on the Sony camera across the entire image field. (Mainly for the extreme corners to catch up)
p.5 #9 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
Interesting read. Really makes me wish even more that Voigtländer would introduce a Sony optimized 28mm Ultron. But I think the 35mm f/1.2 SE will do just fine for me. And nice to see that the 75mm f/1.5 doesn't suffer that much with Sony. Will be a great pair for the 35mm. (I'm pretty sure Voigtländer will introduce Sony version just when I've ordered the VM mount one. )
p.5 #10 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
It is interesting for me to see the difference between the colors:
I immediately notice the greenish-yellowish color cast that I always received from Lightroom with the raw files of the Sony A7RII (and AII).
I really wish I had the technology of the A7RIII (operation / high ISO / resolution / stabilization /lens mount/ electronic shutter/ ... pretty much everything except the AF) with the colors (in Lightroom) and the clean long exposure files of the A7RI.
p.5 #11 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
HelBen85 wrote:
It is interesting for me to see the difference between the colors:
I immediately notice the greenish-yellowish color cast that I always received from Lightroom with the raw files of the Sony A7RII (and AII).
I really wish I had the technology of the A7RIII (operation / high ISO / resolution / stabilization /lens mount/ electronic shutter/ ... pretty much everything except the AF) with the colors (in Lightroom) and the clean long exposure files of the A7RI.
p.5 #12 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
Fred, did you trade you M240 for an M10 then?
Also I was hoping you would have a comparison of the ZM 35 1.4, I know you don't have it anymore but I was hoping you'd have done some tests while you had it.
p.5 #13 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
thepaulbrown wrote:
Fred, did you trade you M240 for an M10 then?
Also I was hoping you would have a comparison of the ZM 35 1.4, I know you don't have it anymore but I was hoping you'd have done some tests while you had it.
Yes, I've traded my M240 for a M10.
I did some tests with the ZM 35/1.4 when I had it. It's a phenomenal lens on the Leica but has severe issues on the Sony sensor. At infinity and on a Leica, it's the only 35mm I've tested that comes close to the Sigma 35/1.2 on a Sony.
Rendering-wise I find the OOF background harsh when the subject is at mid-distance (especially when compared to the new CV 35/1.2 III) but contrast is very high. It also performs better than the Voigtlander at close distance since it's equipped with a FLE system.
p.5 #14 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
Fred Miranda wrote:
Yes, I've traded my M240 for a M10.
I did some tests with the ZM 35/1.4 when I had it. It's a phenomenal lens on the Leica but has severe issues on the Sony sensor. At infinity and on a Leica, it's the only 35mm I've tested that comes close to the Sigma 35/1.2 on a Sony.
Rendering-wise I find the OOF background harsh when the subject is at mid-distance (especially when compared to the new CV 35/1.2 III) but contrast is very high. It also performs better than the Voigtlander at close distance since it's equipped with a FLE system....Show more →
p.5 #15 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
filosofem wrote:
Any plans on testing the 35mm Ultron, Fred?
I may include it in the future but knowing this lens well, it does not perform optimally on the Sony sensor. (Even worse than the 28/2 Ultron posted here)
For the Leica only, it's a great alternative to the Voigtlander 35/1.2 III and Zeiss 35/1.4 ZM.
p.5 #16 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
Thanks Fred, that's basically everything I wanted to know. I've been using it on Sony and looking forward to using it on my first Leica body to get the most out of the lens.
What differences are you noticing "real world" between the two cameras if you don't mind me asking?
p.5 #17 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
Well, I'm not Fred, but the M10 returns closer to the traditional Leica M film body size and feel. It's also more modern in respect to electronics. To me it felt a bit more snappy/responsive than the M240 (though I have not yet switched from the 240), which in turn felt more snappy/responsive than the M9. Modern features, such as live view, are much more fluid with the M10. It's usable with the M240, but very laggy.
M240's much larger battery does mean it can go a lot longer before swaps or charges, but also depends on shooting style (amount of chimping, live view)
Fred Miranda wrote:
Yes, I've traded my M240 for a M10.
I did some tests with the ZM 35/1.4 when I had it. It's a phenomenal lens on the Leica but has severe issues on the Sony sensor. At infinity and on a Leica, it's the only 35mm I've tested that comes close to the Sigma 35/1.2 on a Sony.
Rendering-wise I find the OOF background harsh when the subject is at mid-distance (especially when compared to the new CV 35/1.2 III) but contrast is very high. It also performs better than the Voigtlander at close distance since it's equipped with a FLE system. ...Show more → filosofem wrote:
Any plans on testing the 35mm Ultron, Fred?
Fred Miranda wrote:
I may include it in the future but knowing this lens well, it does not perform optimally on the Sony sensor. (Even worse than the 28/2 Ultron posted here)
For the Leica only, it's a great alternative to the Voigtlander 35/1.2 III and Zeiss 35/1.4 ZM.
It's also a great alternative to the Leica 35s... I've tried the latest 35 Cron against it and saw no reason related to image quality to move from the CV Ultron (35/1.7). Ergonomics are a different matter...
Thanks for the CV 21/1.4 crops; it's really impressive! Makes my 21 Lux look like an $8K paperweight now. Would you say the VM version on Leica is equivalent to the FE version on Sony?
p.5 #18 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
Juha Kannisto wrote:
My Ultron 28/2 (bought as new late last year) has best infinity way earlier than hard infinity (somewhere close to 5m mark on accurate adapters at f5.6 and f8) and there is quite noticeable focus shift at different apertures. Focusing at hard infinity wouldn't give me acceptable results but this could be down to copy variation (otherwise my copy is fine).
retrofocus wrote:
Something with this lens copy doesn't sound right. Mine focuses exactly at infinity for infinity focus. Both on my Leica film cameras and on my A7R with adapter. As I said above, I don't see any focus shift on my lens. Maybe I can consider myself lucky with my copy.
Juha Kannisto wrote:
Focus shift seems to be a commonly mentioned feature of this lens in many online posts though so I don't think it's unusual. On my copy the point of focus shifts quite noticeably from wide open to stopped down and infinity is reached earlier when stopped down. However, IQ is fine all around and the lens is very sharp from wide open.
genji wrote:
To focus shift or not to focus shift, that is the question.
Martin (@retrofocus@), you haven’t noticed any focus shift with your copy of the Ultron VM 28/2 on either your film M7 or your A7R.
Juha, I’m assuming that you are using the lens with your Sony camera(s). Does the focus shift mentioned in the “many online posts” refer to Leica or Sony bodies?
Fred, did you notice any focus shift at close to mid-distance with the Ultron VM 28/2 on your Leica?
Juha Kannisto wrote:
I use mine on Sigma fp and Sony A9 (mostly Sigma) and it's my only lens with such easily noticeable focus shift. Around the time I bought it last year I read quite many online posts about it and especially after I noticed the focus shift I wanted to figure out if it was commonly reported with this lens. I found many user reports mentioning the focus shift and noting that the earlier Ultron 28/1.9 (LTM) didn't have such shift. These were mostly from Leica users and quite old reports from the time when the lens had been newly released. I can try to find some of those references when I'm back home and can use my PC. Now out for some shopping... ...Show more → retrofocus wrote:
Here is what K. Rockwell says about the A9 and adapted wide angle lenses: "adapted wide-angle lenses usually aren't very sharp on the sides at large apertures because Sony's full-frame mirrorless sensors are optimized for lenses with a curved fields. Most other adapted lenses won't seem very sharp on the sides at large apertures due their flat fields not interfacing well with the curved fields needed by Sony's sensors on these cameras. If you get the center in focus, the sides will probably be off, and if you get the sides in focus, the center will be off. This is more of a problem with wider lenses and at large apertures; stop a lens down and the sides will come into better focus." https://www.kenrockwell.com/sony/a9.htm
This means it is very likely to see a focus shift with this lens at least with the A9. I don't know if this is the same with newer A7R III/IV versions, too. I didn't find the same described for the Sigma fp. Nevertheless, I didn't come across of this potential issue of adapted wide angle lenses on newer Sony cameras like the A9 before, therefore also a good learning for me. ...Show more → Juha Kannisto wrote:
Sensor cover related field curvature is a different topic. I first noticed the focus shift when focusing centrally at a distance of about 5m first at f2 and then just changing the aperture. The distance of optimal focus was changing quite clearly when just changing the aperture and this was easily seen in magnified viewfinder view with peaking.
I'm very familiar with sensor cover related field curvature issues too, as I've owned and used about 40 different adapted RF lenses starting from my NEX-6, and later with A7r, A7II, A9 and Sigma fp. Many that worked nicely enough on crop sensor were not so good on FF due to to sensor cover related curvature issues and I sold and replaced many with others along the way, always seeking out the most optimal ones for my cameras (within certain price range so I never got into Leica lenses).
I'm especially into smallish 28mm lenses so currently I have CV Ultron 28/2, CV Color-Skopar 28/3.5 LTM, Avenon 28/3.5 Silver ('94), Avenon 28/3.5 Black ('97), Minolta M-Rokkor 28/2.8, MS-Optics Perar 28/4. I used to have CV Ultron 28/1.9 earlier as well. ...Show more →
Based on past discussions about the 28 Ultron with @retrofocus, I believe he has a rare 'Goldilocks' copy that works well on all systems.
My own experience, based on a test of the lens some years ago on the M9, mirrors yours in respect to focus shift. I also found it did not have good peripheral performance until f/8-11. Perhaps more recent copies have been silently tweaked/improved or QC tightened...?
p.5 #19 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
rscheffler wrote:
Well, I'm not Fred, but the M10 returns closer to the traditional Leica M film body size and feel. It's also more modern in respect to electronics. To me it felt a bit more snappy/responsive than the M240 (though I have not yet switched from the 240), which in turn felt more snappy/responsive than the M9. Modern features, such as live view, are much more fluid with the M10. It's usable with the M240, but very laggy.
The most important M10 improvement to me is the improved rangefinder and EVF viewfinder. Both allow more precise focus. I never had trouble with the M240 but I do appreciate the change.
Files are also cleaner at higher ISO as reported in many reviews. I much prefer the overall simplicity of the M10 including the new menu as well.
The inability to move the focusing point across the image field when using live view was something that bothered me with the M240. Love the new ISO dial and wifi image transfer to the iPhone, image stacking, etc.. but these features alone would not entice me to upgrade.
The M240's strengths are: Lower price, battery longevity and digital spirit level. (Video as well but I didn't use it at all)
It's also a great alternative to the Leica 35s... I've tried the latest 35 Cron against it and saw no reason related to image quality to move from the CV Ultron (35/1.7). Ergonomics are a different matter...
I think the CV 35/1.7 is a great lens and in many ways better optically than the CV 28/2 Ultron. The latter performs great at center and mid-field even at wide apertures. The corners need f/5.6 for high resolution and I'm fine with that.
I prefer lenses that perform great at center + mid-field (think rule of thirds) than great at center + corners with a mid-field dip.
Thanks for the CV 21/1.4 crops; it's really impressive! Makes my 21 Lux look like an $8K paperweight now. Would you say the VM version on Leica is equivalent to the FE version on Sony?
Voigtlander is releasing superb lenses. The last two: CV 50/2 APO and CV 21/1.4 Nokton are absolute gems. I'd say the VM version performs great on the Leica....just as good as the E-mount on the Sony.
The 35, 40 and 50/1.2 Nokton are also very unique. Residual SA at close distance and great performance starting at mid-distance. I love that look as well.
I'm torn between the 21/3.5 and 21/1.4. The former performs great on both Leica and Sony and the latter has that unique rendering but much bigger.
It seems to work pretty nicely on my A9 too.
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