Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
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p.2 #1 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
Fred Miranda wrote:
Based on the above performance on both Sony and Leica cameras, it'd say the Voigtlander 75/1.5 Nokton performs similarly on both systems. At first when I wrote my Voigtlander 75/1.5 Nokton review, I had assumed the weaker mid-field performance wide open was due to Sony's thicker sensor stack but it's just not the case. It seems to be a characteristic of this lens.
So, for those Sony shooters who are waiting for the CV 75/1.5 E-mount, the current M-mount should be just as good.
Thanks for the comparison. I agree the differences are pretty small. To my eye the center part of the image is a bit better on the Sony until about f/4 and the corners are a bit better on the Leica until f/5.6 or so. The mid zone dip definitely seems to be part of the lens' character, unfortunately. I can live with it with this lens, but I generally prefer corner weakness at wide apertures to a mid zone dip but at least for this lens the mid zone dip seems to pretty much totally clear up by f/5.6 or so.
p.2 #2 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
Steve Spencer wrote:
Thanks for the comparison. I agree the differences are pretty small. To my eye the center part of the image is a bit better on the Sony until about f/4 and the corners are a bit better on the Leica until f/5.6 or so. The mid zone dip definitely seems to be part of the lens' character, unfortunately. I can live with it with this lens, but I generally prefer corner weakness at wide apertures to a mid zone dip but at least for this lens the mid zone dip seems to pretty much totally clear up by f/5.6 or so....Show more →
You're welcome. Although the files were normalized to 24MP in order to match Leica's sensor resolution, I would not pay too much attention to small differences as they were taken with sensors with different resolutions. (42MP vs 24MP)
p.2 #3 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
Steve Spencer wrote:
I would characterize the rule of thumb slightly differently. In particular a lot of 35mm lenses perform poorly on Sony cameras with the thicker sensor stack. The Leica M 35 f/2 Asph for example is one of the lenses most affected by the thick sensor stack and the Leica 35 f/1.4 Asph is noticeably affected as is the Zeiss ZM 35 f/1.4. Even the Voigtlander 35 f/1.7 is quite affected.
So, I would say as a rule of thumb that wider than 50mm most lenses are affected by the thicker sensor stack and even 50mm lenses are mildly affected. Longer than 50mm, however, lenses tend to be only mildly affected. One of the crucial variables in whether a lens is affected by the sensor stack thickness is the exit pupil of the lens. Lenses with shorter exit pupils will be more affected, and longer lenses tend to have longer exit pupils. Most 35mm lenses have pretty short exit pupils too....Show more →
I should have added into the exemption of poor performing wider lenses ASPH f/2 lenses - you are absolutely right, and I have described the same with the Leica 35/2 ASPH in the past in this forum. On the other hand, the Leica 35/1.4 ASPH does very well with the Sony sensor stack - which comes back to my point with the larger rear lens element.
Btw, I find the often in this forum used term "exit pupil" very confusing. Not sure if the majority understands what exactly it means in this context. Is it the same as what I was saying that the angle of refraction is steeper towards the border of the sensor frame with smaller rear lens elements?
p.2 #4 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
retrofocus wrote:
I should have added into the exemption of poor performing wider lenses ASPH f/2 lenses - you are absolutely right, and I have described the same with the Leica 35/2 ASPH in the past in this forum. On the other hand, the Leica 35/1.4 ASPH does very well with the Sony sensor stack - which comes back to my point with the larger rear lens element.
Btw, I find the often in this forum used term "exit pupil" very confusing. Not sure if the majority understands what exactly it means in this context. Is it the same as what I was saying that the angle of refraction is steeper towards the border of the sensor frame with smaller rear lens elements? ...Show more →
Do you have crops/a link to show that the 35 Lux ASPH does better? I was under the impression it doesn't, and before I sold my ASPH pre-FLE I did some light testing and it really didn't do well till pretty stopped down across most the frame (at infinite at least). I have toyed with the idea of getting the lens a couple times since letting it go...
p.2 #5 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
I believe the 35FLE had FC issues on my a7r2. Not as bad as the 21 SEM or 28 Cron though, but it definitely dampened the joy of shooting at f/1.4.
May 28, 2020 at 12:35 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #6 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
retrofocus wrote:
I should have added into the exemption of poor performing wider lenses ASPH f/2 lenses - you are absolutely right, and I have described the same with the Leica 35/2 ASPH in the past in this forum. On the other hand, the Leica 35/1.4 ASPH does very well with the Sony sensor stack - which comes back to my point with the larger rear lens element.
Btw, I find the often in this forum used term "exit pupil" very confusing. Not sure if the majority understands what exactly it means in this context. Is it the same as what I was saying that the angle of refraction is steeper towards the border of the sensor frame with smaller rear lens elements? ...Show more →
The exit pupil is the image of the aperture further down the optical path. The distance of this image of the aperture (i.e., the exit pupil) can be measured. So, it isn't the same as the angle of incidence, but the distance of the exit pupil and it size (which is determined by the aperture at which the lens is set) does determine the angle of incidence. So, shorter exit pupils mean a steeper angle of incidence at any given aperture. That may all sound confusing, but it really is pretty simple. On digital sensors you want the rays of light coming together further from the sensors (i.e., a longer exit pupil) so the angle the rays hit the sensor are shallower angles. Steep angles cause problems especially with thick cover glass and especially at the edges. Making lenses that bring the rays of light together further from the sensor combats this effect by creating shallower angles.
So it is basically the same as what you are discussing but it is the measurement of something different that results in what you are discussing, if that make sense.
p.2 #7 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
nehemiahphoto wrote:
Do you have crops/a link to show that the 35 Lux ASPH does better? I was under the impression it doesn't, and before I sold my ASPH pre-FLE I did some light testing and it really didn't do well till pretty stopped down across most the frame (at infinite at least). I have toyed with the idea of getting the lens a couple times since letting it go...
I still had one photo which I took with the Leica 35/1.4 Lux lens back in 2014 when I tested this lens inside a Leica store on my A7R. Not exactly sure which aperture I selected, but the photo has quite shallow DoF. The corners turned out all fine, and there is no focus shift towards the center which is the case with the 35/2.0 ASPH on the A7R sensor.
I didn't buy the 35/1.4 lens back then and bought instead later a mint copy of the older 35/2.0 vers. IV lens (no ASPH!) which I love using both on film and digital.
p.2 #8 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
retrofocus wrote:
...
Btw, I find the often in this forum used term "exit pupil" very confusing. Not sure if the majority understands what exactly it means in this context. Is it the same as what I was saying that the angle of refraction is steeper towards the border of the sensor frame with smaller rear lens elements?
Perhaps something like: the angle of incidence of the light ray is more acute (i.e. less than 90º) at the edges. It's something less than Telecentric.
Note that the M-240 sensor has a slight crop of 24px on each side and 12px top & bottom (5952 x 3976 for jpg and half that for dng). Some observable edge and corner issues are diminished due to this.
p.2 #9 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
Steve Spencer wrote:
The exit pupil is the image of the aperture further down the optical path. The distance of this image of the aperture (i.e., the exit pupil) can be measured. So, it isn't the same as the angle of incidence, but the distance of the exit pupil and it size (which is determined by the aperture at which the lens is set) does determine the angle of incidence. So, shorter exit pupils mean a steeper angle of incidence at any given aperture. That may all sound confusing, but it really is pretty simple. On digital sensors you want the rays of light coming together further from the sensors (i.e., a longer exit pupil) so the angle the rays hit the sensor are shallower angles. Steep angles cause problems especially with thick cover glass and especially at the edges. Making lenses that bring the rays of light together further from the sensor combats this effect by creating shallower angles.
So it is basically the same as what you are discussing but it is the measurement of something different that results in what you are discussing, if that make sense. ...Show more →
Great, thanks so much, this really explains it well especially within the discussed content!
p.2 #10 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
I've received a few PMs about mismatched aperture setting for the Leica crops, so I think it's better if I answer it here.
Question: Why the Leica EXIF aperture setting does not match the actual aperture setting on your crops?
In the M-mount, there is no linkage that transmits the aperture data from the lens to the body. With the Leica M240, the EXIF's aperture setting reflects a comparison of ambient light to exposure so is more of a t-stop than an f-stop. Most of the time it's inaccurate since it's just an approximation. Starting with Leica M10, aperture recording was removed all together from the EXIF data. Some shooters were disappointed by it. Not sure about the M10-P.
Short answer: When you see Leica crops showing different EXIF aperture settings than reported, just ignore it.
p.2 #11 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
retrofocus wrote:
So far confirms the rule of thumb with M lenses on Sony MLCs that at focal lengths with 35 mm and above plus wider open rear lens (apertures f/2 and wider open) work well on unmodified Sony sensors with thicker stack. It's only with wider lenses (and/or smaller rear lens element) where the angle of refraction is steeper especially towards the borders/corners of the FF sensor that some unsharpness and color fringing can occur.
I have found there are some 50mm lens that struggle as well. The 50 Summilux ASPH gets smeary in the corners on my A7rII. The Zeiss ZM Sonnar also has some funky stuff going on in the corners wide open, but I haven’t fully tested it against my M.
Certainly wider symmetric lenses tend to be bad. 28 Summicron ASPH is bad. Version 2 is a bit better but still not good.
p.2 #12 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
kidtexas wrote:
I have found there are some 50mm lens that struggle as well. The 50 Summilux ASPH gets smeary in the corners on my A7rII. The Zeiss ZM Sonnar also has some funky stuff going on in the corners wide open, but I haven’t fully tested it against my M.
Certainly wider symmetric lenses tend to be bad. 28 Summicron ASPH is bad. Version 2 is a bit better but still not good.
I don't own any Summilux lenses and have only tested once the 35/1.4 ASPH which I described above. The closest I have and enjoy using both on film and digital on my A7R is the older vintage Leica 50/1.5 Summarit LTM lens. It is less sharp in the center wide open than current Summilux offerings, but it provides a beautiful glow and bokeh which no other lens I own has.
As I mentioned earlier, it is a good advice to stay away from f/2 ASPH M-mount lenses mounted on Sony FF MLCs in general. Pre-ASPH f/2 lens versions are much better here in this regard. For some reason the additional ASPH lens element does not work well in combination with the other lens groups with the unmodified Sony sensor stack.
p.2 #13 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
I don’t know about most of the fast ASPH glass, but the 50 Summilux does have its rear element relatively close to the sensor. I always suspected that affects its performance.
It is also my understanding that the 21-28 Summilux lenses are okay on a Sony, and better than the 28 Summicron.
Certainly an expensive game to play unless you already shoot Leica M. Personally, I’d rather shoot my M lenses on an M camera, and the excellent Loxia and Voigtlander lenses on the Sony. It will be interesting to see what Fred finds.
p.2 #17 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
Based on the above crops, I see the Voigtlander 21/3.5 Color-Skopar VM performing similarly on both Sony and Leica. Only at the very corners and wide open I see a very small advantage for the Leica crop but they were not frame exactly the same. At f/5.6 and smaller, I don't see any difference across the field. I'd say it's a great choice for shooting landscapes for both Sony and Leica.
p.2 #18 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
kidtexas wrote:
I don’t know about most of the fast ASPH glass, but the 50 Summilux does have its rear element relatively close to the sensor.
The pre-ASPH 50 'lux (aka v2) is completely fine on my A7ii. In contrast, the 28 Elmarit-M ASPH which I would dearly like to use digitally is utterly hopeless in Zone C.
p.2 #19 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
The new CV Color-Skopar 21/3.5 ASPH version seems a lot better than the old CV 21/4.0 Color-Skopar lens in M-mount on an A7-sensor based camera. It's interesting that this slower lens with f/3.5 works well as wide angle M-lens on the Sony cameras which is normally not the case. It was formerly the reason why I purchased the CV 21/1.8 M-mount lens instead because the Color-Skopar at the time was described as poor performer on Sony FF MLC sensors.
p.2 #20 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
I don't remember where, but read the 21/2.8 Biogon performs a bit better than the 21/3.5 Skopar on a Sony(?), but these results look great. I'm glad I just bought one.
