p.4 #1 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
It's getting harder to separate the high end 50mm lenses for sharpness. We can say the Heliar 50/3.5 v4 certainly does not lack for the performance quality at this level, lots of contrast and resolution, often eye-popping.
It's actually a lot like the look of the 50/2 APO - the very satisfying 'modern Voigtlander look' - elastic saturation levels, excellent separation, a settled picture, pleasing OOF, no shortage of sharpness (these two are much more alike than either is to the Sony 55/1.8 for example). As the 50/2 will stay on a camera all the time it may not get much airtime, however it may be the better open field lens, and it seems to do all I want. Nothing fazes it.
I'd guess Cosina used modern glass in this little beauty, even if it shares the formula with the slide out earlier vsns. It has just six air-glass surfaces, to compare the Sigma 35/1.2 has 24 such interfaces. People struggle a bit to describe the look, Steve Huff has a great video review of the 50/3.5-v4. And here are some very indicative images from it:
'this organic and real feeling that comes across in photos taken with the 50mm VM Heliar come from the fact the images don’t feel flat in the way images from many “clinically sharp” modern lenses do. Instead they have what the world of photography has chosen to call “3D pop”. '
I used to have a pretty full range of Leica lenses but they have all gone since moving to Sony and the ones I remember as performing very well for me were
Elmarit-M 90 (thin version)
135 apo-telyt
Tri-elmar 16-18-21 (WATE)
voigtlander 35/f1.2 vII was pretty good as was the CV 12/f5.6
Summilux 50/1.4 and the summicron 28/2 (3 bit coded) were all bad performers
p.4 #3 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
engel001 wrote:
“Based on these crops, I would say the CV 50/3.5 Heliar is outstanding on the Sony sensor. Perhaps only the Voigtlander 50/2 APO will perform better here.“
Fred, since you have both Voigtlanders, the Heliar and the APO, have you had a chance to compare them side-by-side at distance on Sony? Also, do you know if the Heliar IV formula is identical to that of the collapsible screw-mount (Version 1, Anniversary)?
I've never seen a 50mm performing better than the 50/2 APO across the field but I will test them side by side. I got curious too.
p.4 #4 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
Can I take it back to the Ultron 28?
I generally carry the E mount 21mm 3.5 and 40 1.2 but am increasingly feeling the need for a 28 in a lot of instances. I'm sensing that an E mount 28 is not imminent so - although I'm a bit reluctant to get into adapted lenses without contacts - the Ultron form factor is calling me.
What I wanted to check is what I think I've learnt from this thread and Bastian's review:
* f8 and above I'm good to set infinity and go (within reason)
* Below f8 I'll need to be careful with out of focus areas from midfield to edge (or not worry sometimes if edges are a bit sharper than midfield)
I mainly do hand held held urban scenes on the hoof - if I go for the Ultron I might later try the 75. Or should I wait for native E mount releases?
Grateful for opinions...
Jun 13, 2020 at 01:35 PM
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p.4 #5 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
davidflem wrote:
Can I take it back to the Ultron 28?
I generally carry the E mount 21mm 3.5 and 40 1.2 but am increasingly feeling the need for a 28 in a lot of instances. I'm sensing that an E mount 28 is not imminent so - although I'm a bit reluctant to get into adapted lenses without contacts - the Ultron form factor is calling me.
What I wanted to check is what I think I've learnt from this thread and Bastian's review:
* f8 and above I'm good to set infinity and go (within reason)
* Below f8 I'll need to be careful with out of focus areas from midfield to edge (or not worry sometimes if edges are a bit sharper than midfield)
I mainly do hand held held urban scenes on the hoof - if I go for the Ultron I might later try the 75. Or should I wait for native E mount releases?
At 28mm I would opt for the 7 Artisans 28 f/1.4. You can get a version optimized for Sony E mount (even though you will still need a Leica M to Sony E mount adapter). It performs quite well, although not perfectly, and there is a nice review of the lens at philipreeve.net (I think Bastian did that review too). It is fairly inexpensive too.
I have my doubts that Voigtlander will make an E mount version of the 75 f/1.5, but it performs quite well on a mirrorless camera anyway. I have even more doubts they will make a 28mm for Sony e mount. If they do I don't think it will be an Ultron (they have not yet make and Ultron for Sony E mount) and I doubt it will be soon, but I don't think Voigtlander is easy to predict either.
p.4 #6 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
davidflem wrote:
Can I take it back to the Ultron 28?
I generally carry the E mount 21mm 3.5 and 40 1.2 but am increasingly feeling the need for a 28 in a lot of instances. I'm sensing that an E mount 28 is not imminent so - although I'm a bit reluctant to get into adapted lenses without contacts - the Ultron form factor is calling me.
What I wanted to check is what I think I've learnt from this thread and Bastian's review:
* f8 and above I'm good to set infinity and go (within reason)
* Below f8 I'll need to be careful with out of focus areas from midfield to edge (or not worry sometimes if edges are a bit sharper than midfield)
I mainly do hand held held urban scenes on the hoof - if I go for the Ultron I might later try the 75. Or should I wait for native E mount releases?
I posted earlier some sample shots of the CV 28/2.0 attached with adapter on the A7R. I add a few more which were taken yesterday with my Leica M7 and Kodak Gold 200 film, home-developed with C-41. This way we can more precisely determine the lens performance itself without taking a sensor stack into account (I don't have a digital Leica M, so film has to suffice ).
At f/11.0:
At f/8.0
At f/2.8:
Focus point is the window center.
Overall I don't agree from my experience that there are any "out-of-focus areas from midfield to edge". I have never seen this neither digital nor on film with this lens. Stopped a bit down, the lens provides excellent corner-to corner sharpness as seen here in these photos. Wider open, it provides beautiful OOF blur further away from the focus point.
p.4 #7 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
My Ultron 28/2 (bought as new late last year) has best infinity way earlier than hard infinity (somewhere close to 5m mark on accurate adapters at f5.6 and f8) and there is quite noticeable focus shift at different apertures. Focusing at hard infinity wouldn't give me acceptable results but this could be down to copy variation (otherwise my copy is fine).
davidflem wrote:
Can I take it back to the Ultron 28?
I generally carry the E mount 21mm 3.5 and 40 1.2 but am increasingly feeling the need for a 28 in a lot of instances. I'm sensing that an E mount 28 is not imminent so - although I'm a bit reluctant to get into adapted lenses without contacts - the Ultron form factor is calling me.
What I wanted to check is what I think I've learnt from this thread and Bastian's review:
* f8 and above I'm good to set infinity and go (within reason)
* Below f8 I'll need to be careful with out of focus areas from midfield to edge (or not worry sometimes if edges are a bit sharper than midfield)
I mainly do hand held held urban scenes on the hoof - if I go for the Ultron I might later try the 75. Or should I wait for native E mount releases?
p.4 #8 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
Juha Kannisto wrote:
My Ultron 28/2 (bought as new late last year) has best infinity way earlier than hard infinity (somewhere close to 5m mark on accurate adapters at f5.6 and f8) and there is quite noticeable focus shift at different apertures. Focusing at hard infinity wouldn't give me acceptable results but this could be down to copy variation (otherwise my copy is fine).
Something with this lens copy doesn't sound right. Mine focuses exactly at infinity for infinity focus. Both on my Leica film cameras and on my A7R with adapter. As I said above, I don't see any focus shift on my lens. Maybe I can consider myself lucky with my copy.
p.4 #9 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
retrofocus wrote:
Something with this lens copy doesn't sound right. Mine focuses exactly at infinity for infinity focus. Both on my Leica film cameras and on my A7R with adapter. As I said above, I don't see any focus shift on my lens. Maybe I can consider myself lucky with my copy.
Focus shift seems to be a commonly mentioned feature of this lens in many online posts though so I don't think it's unusual. On my copy the point of focus shifts quite noticeably from wide open to stopped down and infinity is reached earlier when stopped down. However, IQ is fine all around and the lens is very sharp from wide open.
p.4 #10 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
davidflem wrote:
Can I take it back to the Ultron 28?
I generally carry the E mount 21mm 3.5 and 40 1.2 but am increasingly feeling the need for a 28 in a lot of instances. I'm sensing that an E mount 28 is not imminent so - although I'm a bit reluctant to get into adapted lenses without contacts - the Ultron form factor is calling me.
What I wanted to check is what I think I've learnt from this thread and Bastian's review:
* f8 and above I'm good to set infinity and go (within reason)
* Below f8 I'll need to be careful with out of focus areas from midfield to edge (or not worry sometimes if edges are a bit sharper than midfield)
I mainly do hand held held urban scenes on the hoof - if I go for the Ultron I might later try the 75. Or should I wait for native E mount releases?
Hi David,
According to the Leica vs Sony comparison here, the CV 28/2 Ultron performs better on the Leica. In fact is a stellar performer.
It does not mean it can't be adapted to the Sony for good results but there will be noticeable induced field curvature with this optical design, especially at wide apertures. (Seems to be the case with other Ultron lenses as well)
Starting at f/5.6-f/8, it performs similarly on both Leica and Sony at center and mid-field but the Sony corners don't quite match the Leica's even at small apertures.
Regarding the CV 75/1.5 Nokton. It's one of my favorite lenses and performs similarly on both Leica and Sony. I highly recommend it.
p.4 #11 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
Juha Kannisto wrote:
Focus shift seems to be a commonly mentioned feature of this lens in many online posts though so I don't think it's unusual. On my copy the point of focus shifts quite noticeably from wide open to stopped down and infinity is reached earlier when stopped down. However, IQ is fine all around and the lens is very sharp from wide open.
To focus shift or not to focus shift, that is the question.
Martin (@retrofocus), you haven’t noticed any focus shift with your copy of the Ultron VM 28/2 on either your film M7 or your A7R.
Juha, I’m assuming that you are using the lens with your Sony camera(s). Does the focus shift mentioned in the “many online posts” refer to Leica or Sony bodies?
Fred, did you notice any focus shift at close to mid-distance with the Ultron VM 28/2 on your Leica?
p.4 #12 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
genji wrote:
To focus shift or not to focus shift, that is the question.
Martin (@retrofocus), you haven’t noticed any focus shift with your copy of the Ultron VM 28/2 on either your film M7 or your A7R.
Juha, I’m assuming that you are using the lens with your Sony camera(s). Does the focus shift mentioned in the “many online posts” refer to Leica or Sony bodies?
Fred, did you notice any focus shift at close to mid-distance with the Ultron VM 28/2 on your Leica?
I use mine on Sigma fp and Sony A9 (mostly Sigma) and it's my only lens with such easily noticeable focus shift. Around the time I bought it last year I read quite many online posts about it and especially after I noticed the focus shift I wanted to figure out if it was commonly reported with this lens. I found many user reports mentioning the focus shift and noting that the earlier Ultron 28/1.9 (LTM) didn't have such shift. These were mostly from Leica users and quite old reports from the time when the lens had been newly released. I can try to find some of those references when I'm back home and can use my PC. Now out for some shopping...
p.4 #13 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
Juha Kannisto wrote:
I use mine on Sigma fp and Sony A9 (mostly Sigma) and it's my only lens with such easily noticeable focus shift. Around the time I bought it last year I read quite many online posts about it and especially after I noticed the focus shift I wanted to figure out if it was commonly reported with this lens. I found many user reports mentioning the focus shift and noting that the earlier Ultron 28/1.9 (LTM) didn't have such shift. These were mostly from Leica users and quite old reports from the time when the lens had been newly released. I can try to find some of those references when I'm back home and can use my PC. Now out for some shopping......Show more →
Here is what K. Rockwell says about the A9 and adapted wide angle lenses: "adapted wide-angle lenses usually aren't very sharp on the sides at large apertures because Sony's full-frame mirrorless sensors are optimized for lenses with a curved fields. Most other adapted lenses won't seem very sharp on the sides at large apertures due their flat fields not interfacing well with the curved fields needed by Sony's sensors on these cameras. If you get the center in focus, the sides will probably be off, and if you get the sides in focus, the center will be off. This is more of a problem with wider lenses and at large apertures; stop a lens down and the sides will come into better focus." https://www.kenrockwell.com/sony/a9.htm
This means it is very likely to see a focus shift with this lens at least with the A9. I don't know if this is the same with newer A7R III/IV versions, too. I didn't find the same described for the Sigma fp. Nevertheless, I didn't come across of this potential issue of adapted wide angle lenses on newer Sony cameras like the A9 before, therefore also a good learning for me.
p.4 #14 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
genji wrote:
To focus shift or not to focus shift, that is the question.
Martin (@retrofocus), you haven’t noticed any focus shift with your copy of the Ultron VM 28/2 on either your film M7 or your A7R.
Juha, I’m assuming that you are using the lens with your Sony camera(s). Does the focus shift mentioned in the “many online posts” refer to Leica or Sony bodies?
Fred, did you notice any focus shift at close to mid-distance with the Ultron VM 28/2 on your Leica?
Lenses with focus shift will show this ill-effect on all sensors. I have not yet tested the 28/2 for focus shift and unfortunately can't test for it now because it was sent for infinity adjustment.
p.4 #15 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
retrofocus wrote:
Here is what K. Rockwell says about the A9 and adapted wide angle lenses: "adapted wide-angle lenses usually aren't very sharp on the sides at large apertures because Sony's full-frame mirrorless sensors are optimized for lenses with a curved fields. Most other adapted lenses won't seem very sharp on the sides at large apertures due their flat fields not interfacing well with the curved fields needed by Sony's sensors on these cameras. If you get the center in focus, the sides will probably be off, and if you get the sides in focus, the center will be off. This is more of a problem with wider lenses and at large apertures; stop a lens down and the sides will come into better focus." https://www.kenrockwell.com/sony/a9.htm
This means it is very likely to see a focus shift with this lens at least with the A9. I don't know if this is the same with newer A7R III/IV versions, too. I didn't find the same described for the Sigma fp. Nevertheless, I didn't come across of this potential issue of adapted wide angle lenses on newer Sony cameras like the A9 before, therefore also a good learning for me. ...Show more →
Sensor cover related field curvature is a different topic. I first noticed the focus shift when focusing centrally at a distance of about 5m first at f2 and then just changing the aperture. The distance of optimal focus was changing quite clearly when just changing the aperture and this was easily seen in magnified viewfinder view with peaking.
I'm very familiar with sensor cover related field curvature issues too, as I've owned and used about 40 different adapted RF lenses starting from my NEX-6, and later with A7r, A7II, A9 and Sigma fp. Many that worked nicely enough on crop sensor were not so good on FF due to to sensor cover related curvature issues and I sold and replaced many with others along the way, always seeking out the most optimal ones for my cameras (within certain price range so I never got into Leica lenses).
I'm especially into smallish 28mm lenses so currently I have CV Ultron 28/2, CV Color-Skopar 28/3.5 LTM, Avenon 28/3.5 Silver ('94), Avenon 28/3.5 Black ('97), Minolta M-Rokkor 28/2.8, MS-Optics Perar 28/4. I used to have CV Ultron 28/1.9 earlier as well.
Apparently on RF cameras especially when shooting with film and when focusing wide open, increasing depth of field when stopping down may still help to hide the impact of focus shifting so there are a lot of arguments on whether or not the lens exhibits focus shift. However on digital cameras it should be easier to notice in controlled testing.
Apparently on RF cameras especially when shooting with film and when focusing wide open, increasing depth of field when stopping down may still help to hide the impact of focus shifting so there are a lot of arguments on whether or not the lens exhibits focus shift. However on digital cameras it should be easier to notice in controlled testing.
Many thanks, Juha, for the links. There seem to be multiple camps: 1) there is no focus shift; 2) there is minimal focus shift and it's masked by stopping down; and 3) there is serious, noticeable focus shift which is not mitigated by stopping down. I already have the CV 28/1.9 LTM but was considering replacing it with the 28/2 VM after seeing Fred's tests. I would only be using it on Leica M bodies. Now I'm not so sure whether I should just stick with the 28/1.9 LTM.
p.4 #18 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
genji wrote:
Many thanks, Juha, for the links. There seem to be multiple camps: 1) there is no focus shift; 2) there is minimal focus shift and it's masked by stopping down; and 3) there is serious, noticeable focus shift which is not mitigated by stopping down. I already have the CV 28/1.9 LTM but was considering replacing it with the 28/2 VM after seeing Fred's tests. I would only be using it on Leica M bodies. Now I'm not so sure whether I should just stick with the 28/1.9 LTM.
In my experience with my own copy the focus shift is quite significant and it would be best to focus at shooting aperture which I normally do anyway on my fp and A9. It made things a bit confusing at first when I was trying to figure out different focusing settings with various apertures and my findings were not consistent at all. When I focus carefully at shooting aperture I've been getting very nice and sharp results with the lens though especially on my Sigma fp where f5.6 is quite enough for great corner-to-corner results. There is some tendency for bluish color-shifting on the fp though which is not specific to this lens but happens on wide angle lenses in general. I don't really like the focus tab from handling perspective especially when shooting in portrait orientation (which I do a lot) though.
About 1.5 weeks ago I got the CV 28/3.5 LTM (Silver / Chrome version) in great condition and now I'm enjoying that one on my A9 where it works surprisingly well (some weakness in extreme corners but it shines in close to mid distances and is also perfectly fine for infinity shots whenever perfect corners don't matter too much). I was surprised that it works so well since my previous experience with CV 28/3.5 Nikon S mount (same optics) on my A7r were pretty bad. I later sold the S mount version but had some remaining interest on the lens in LTM. The LTM versions have been quite difficult to get though (usually just available in Yahoo Japan auctions or eBay from time to time and hardly ever found in 2nd hand stores) and prices seem to go relatively high even for copies that are not in very good condition.
CV 28/1.9 used to be a favorite on my old Nex-6 but I eventually sold it as it wasn't very optimal to the edges corners on Sony FF. Sometimes I miss it though and I've considered buying one again, but now the CV 28/3.5 LTM made me forget about it for the time being
p.4 #19 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
The 28/3.5 somehow never showed up on my radar, probably because I don't recall seeing one for sale... I'll pay more attention now ; - )
I have both Ultrons, LTM f/1.9 and VM f/2 (as well as a 7A M 28/1.4 and a probably half dozen other 28s of different mounts). The f/1.9 practically lived on my a7ii. The only issue was the accentuated field curvature (not present on my M-240 or Z7). Edge sharpness at f/8 (using field curvature) was never a problem (isn't a problem on the m-240 and Z7 either). The Ultron f/2 is more petite and makes a nice small kit. I usually focus to the aperture's range of depth of field when not shooting wide open so any focus shift would be mostly irrelevant for my usage - but I haven't noticed focus shift nor looked for it. I had used the Ultron f/1.9 for some event coverage and never noticed focus shift, but this was using the lens for it's intended purpose. Wide open both Ultrons are more than competent for photojournalism... The 7A is as well, but it has it's own unique personality...
p.4 #20 · Best Voigtlander M-mount lenses for Leica and Sony sensors
I've had a Voigtlander 28/1.9 for about 15 yrs, using it on M3 & M6, nex 6 and A7 and now Fuji, and I've always found it very good. Never seen any focus shift (and so never felt the need to test for it!) and the retrofocus design seems to do well even with the A7 full frame sensor.
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