p.7 #1 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
chez wrote:
One thing you are ignoring is the power of brand. Canon's brand is known world wide and has been associated with photography for 50 years. Sony not so much.
p.7 #2 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
chez wrote:
One thing you are ignoring is the power of brand. Canon's brand is known world wide and has been associated with photography for 50 years. Sony not so much.
You are right-has been. I'd love to see them release a product that rivals their competitors on all fronts and I'd prefer MILC but I'd give it a go if it weren't. Started with Canon, like their stuff, and I just feel that they are either indifferent to, ignorant about, or incapable of producing a body that appeals to the "new upscale" market.
p.7 #3 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
mfenske wrote:
You are right-has been. I'd love to see them release a product that rivals their competitors on all fronts and I'd prefer MILC but I'd give it a go if it weren't. Started with Canon, like their stuff, and I just feel that they are either indifferent to, ignorant about, or incapable of producing a body that appeals to the "new upscale" market.
Exactly, Canon is behind in the tech with their cameras...but their brand power still has Canon at close to 50% of the ILC market. Nikon, even thought they might have better cameras, have been losing market share over the years. Brand recognition and marketing is huge in the consumer market.
Apr 30, 2019 at 09:39 AM
brian_sp Offline • • • • [X]
p.7 #4 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
sflxn wrote:
Regardless of how good the Nikon or Canon could have been (but wasn't), the market is in rapid decline. I'm not really sure why they waited, but the supply of potential buyers is far less now than it was 3 years ago.
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this right here is exactly the problem that these sales numbers are reflecting, all of the camera companies are going to face the same thing,
i can't even remember the last time i have been out birding and ran into someone half my age that is out birding and carrying a camera around, if i go to an auto race or an airshow there are very few young people that could be bothered to use a camera that is not a cell phone.
if i get up early to go catch a sunrise i don't think i have ever ran into a millennial that could be even bothered to get up that early
the same can be said when i visit my local camera store
p.7 #5 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
chez wrote:
Exactly, Canon is behind in the tech with their cameras...but their brand power still has Canon at close to 50% of the ILC market. Nikon, even thought they might have better cameras, have been losing market share over the years. Brand recognition and marketing is huge in the consumer market.
As the DSLR market segment dies out the 50% market segment Canon currently has will drop fast if they don't become more competitive with MILCs. Canon and Nikon are the only players in DSLRs and they are going to take the hit from it disappearing. This is going to greatly impact their bottom lines as time passes. This is also a main reason I see a lot of trouble ahead for Canon if they don't get competitive with Sony and Nikon on more than price.
p.7 #8 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
PicGuy wrote:
As the DSLR market segment dies out the 50% market segment Canon currently has will drop fast if they don't become more competitive with MILCs. Canon and Nikon are the only players in DSLRs and they are going to take the hit from it disappearing. This is going to greatly impact their bottom lines as time passes. This is also a main reason I see a lot of trouble ahead for Canon if they don't get competitive with Sony and Nikon on more than price.
Don't forget Canon had the best selling mirrorless camera already...their M series. Yes everyone here can poke a bunch of holes into that camera...but it sold very well. Canon marketing and brand in action.
p.7 #11 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
brian_sp wrote:
if i get up early to go catch a sunrise i don't think i have ever ran into a millennial that could be even bothered to get up that early
the same can be said when i visit my local camera store
Really seems like a small sample size and just overall bias here. As a "millennial" at the ripe young age of 32 (people seem to forget Millennials aren't 18-20 anymore), the past 5 photo trips I have done for landscape I'd say it was a 50/50 mix of people over 50 and then people 25-35, up with me for sunsets and out late for sunrise. Astrophotography was almost exclusively <40s. I guess it just really depends on what/where you shoot.
Camera store I can't comment on because the only one I visit is B&H and I feel like that is not representative of common camera stores.
p.7 #12 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
Sigma CEO:
…”the market is changing from DSLR to mirrorless much quicker than I thought.“…..”Eventually, I think the majority of interchangeable-lens cameras will be mirrorless.“
the market: “Maybe [down] 20 to 25% from now, that’s my guess.”
p.7 #13 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
chez wrote:
Don't forget Canon had the best selling mirrorless camera already...their M series. Yes everyone here can poke a bunch of holes into that camera...but it sold very well. Canon marketing and brand in action.
I have been invested in the M series since the M3 first showed up overseas. I bought a grey market camera before it came to the US. I wish I had gone with a different brand because it didn't take long to find out the shortcomings of the EOS M system. They were severely behind the competition then and they still are today. They are using low pricing on less well featured cameras along with mostly underwhelming EF-M lenses (11-22mm, 22mm and 32mm excepted) to gain market share
Then there is the 80,000 lb gorilla in the EOS M system. That is it is a dead end one with zero upgrade path to the R system. No EOS M gear will migrate to the R cameras and what it worse than this is no RF gear can migrate to the EOS M system. This is going to cost them dearly in future market share among people who would consider migrating to FF one day. They have no APS-C MILC system that allows any migration path to FF MILC. Personally, I think the EOS M system is a dead man walking. I think Canon will ultimately replace it with an RF based line.
I stopped buying M gear many years ago first because I didn't see a commitment from Canon to grow the system into something substantial and competitive. This coice was further validated when the R system came out and it is completely incompatible with the M system. IMO, Canon has crated a mess for themselves. They had better have a lot of rabbits they are getting ready to pull out of a lot of hats very soon. Otherwise, I think they are facing a rough future in the MILC market.
p.7 #14 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
PicGuy wrote:
I have been invested in the M series since the M3 first showed up overseas. I bought a grey market camera before it came to the US. I wish I had gone with a different brand because it didn't take long to find out the shortcomings of the EOS M system. They were severely behind the competition then and they still are today. They are using low pricing on less well featured cameras along with mostly underwhelming EF-M lenses (11-22mm, 22mm and 32mm excepted) to gain market share
Then there is the 80,000 lb gorilla in the EOS M system. That is it is a dead end one with zero upgrade path to the R system. No EOS M gear will migrate to the R cameras and what it worse than this is no RF gear can migrate to the EOS M system. This is going to cost them dearly in future market share among people who would consider migrating to FF one day. They have no APS-C MILC system that allows any migration path to FF MILC. Personally, I think the EOS M system is a dead man walking. I think Canon will ultimately replace it with an RF based line.
I stopped buying M gear many years ago first because I didn't see a commitment from Canon to grow the system into something substantial and competitive. This coice was further validated when the R system came out and it is completely incompatible with the M system. IMO, Canon has crated a mess for themselves. They had better have a lot of rabbits they are getting ready to pull out of a lot of hats very soon. Otherwise, I think they are facing a rough future in the MILC market....Show more →
Again...it just shows the value of brand and marketing in the consumer market. It was strong enough to strip money out of your pocket...someone who I think knows better about camera equipment. Just think how strong this pull ( brand and marketing ) is to naive people looking at their first camera.
You purchasing the M system just solidifies my point about the strength about brands.
p.7 #15 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
The problem is that it works only (fool me) once. By now they have nobody left to fool.
People will buy either a smartphone or a camera of a different brand. And they’re not into smartphones in any way. No lens no sensors no nothing. That’s why they have those gloomy predictions about the future of their market.
p.7 #16 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
vdo1 wrote:
The problem is that it works only (fool me) once. By now they have nobody left to fool.
People will buy either a smartphone or a camera of a different brand. And they’re not into smartphones in any way. No lens no sensors no nothing. That’s why they have those gloomy predictions about the future of their market.
Come on...Canon's cameras have been behind in tech for the last 5 years...yet they kept their market share. Seems like a lot of "fool me once" customers. In the same 5 years, Nikon's advanced cameras have lost market share...why do you think that is the case? Sometimes ( in fact many times ) the best product does not win. Brand and marketing many times outweighs technical advancements.
p.7 #18 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
chez wrote:
Come on...Canon's cameras have been behind in tech for the last 5 years...yet they kept their market share. Seems like a lot of "fool me once" customers. In the same 5 years, Nikon's advanced cameras have lost market share...why do you think that is the case? Sometimes ( in fact many times ) the best product does not win. Brand and marketing many times outweighs technical advancements.
Yes but their army of shills has run out of ammo. They’re now grasping at straws, like “menu science” and “pinky rest science”. These can help with only so many sales.
p.7 #19 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
Sauseschritt wrote:
I dont know what you mean with "better ISO performance". I only know "better high ISO performance" or "better performance (overall)". Neither of which is the case with the D810 compared to the D800.
But what is "better ISO performance" supposed to be ? ISO is simply the setting of the camera, it is not in itself something thats done better or worse.
What the D810 sensor had was a lowered base ISO, from 100 in the D800 to 64 in the D810. And if you worked at said ISO 64, you'd get better performance, including the better dynamic range you just mentioned.
If however you run the D810 at ISO 100, you'd get (ever so slightly) worse performance than with the D800. Likewise, the high ISO performance of the D810 wasn't improved over that of the D800, either, but was less good. ...Show more →
Less noise in photos and video. Lower native ISO. Maybe you had a bad camera, but in the 3 D800s and 4 D810s I've owned, the 810 always performed better for me.
p.7 #20 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
coudet wrote:
D850 sensor is Sony IMX309. More likely scenario is that Nikon has commissioned the design and manufacture of this sensor from Sony Semiconductor Solutions Corporation; and has secured (read: paid for) exclusive rights to this sensor.
