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Archive 2019 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon

  
 
chez
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p.3 #1 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


charles.K wrote:
This thread is not going to end well... again! As Luka mentioned we have 1 months sales in Japan and once again we are extrapolating and throwing out bait in both the Sony and Nikon thread without mention in the Canon thread.

The thread is suited for "General Gear Talk" thread as it waste time and energy in the Nikon and Sony thread. In the General Gear Talk thread it would allow those who wish to participate to choose rather being inundated every time we open the Nikon or Sony threads.

Recently we have had so much new gear and updates
...Show more

Charles, you know you have the option of not looking at this thread right. Not only did you read the thread, you posted in it...so you must have some interest in it.

Personally I think this thread is a good example where it could be posted in the Sony, Nikon and Canon forums as it relates to all. Posting it into the general forum does the topic not justice as its about mirrorless camera sales and the article explicitly shows off the big three camera makes.

Best maybe just avoid the thread if there is no interest.



Apr 28, 2019 at 04:58 PM
charles.K
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p.3 #2 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


chez wrote:
Charles, you know you have the option of not looking at this thread right. Not only did you read the thread, you posted in it...so you must have some interest in it.

Personally I think this thread is a good example where it could be posted in the Sony, Nikon and Canon forums as it relates to all. Posting it into the general forum does the topic not justice as its about mirrorless camera sales and the article explicitly shows off the big three camera makes.

Best maybe just avoid the thread if there is no interest.


As mentioned the most appropriate thread is the "Latest Photography News" Why clog up specific threads when you have an appropriate forum already?



Apr 28, 2019 at 05:07 PM
chez
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p.3 #3 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


charles.K wrote:
As mentioned the most appropriate thread is the "Latest Photography News" Why clog up specific threads when you have an appropriate forum already?


Just doing a quick scan of the "Latest Photography News" forum it appears the vast majority of threads in it are cross posted from other forums. So yeh...maybe this thread should also appear in that forum...but it seems to be very active where it resides...which is a good thing as there is interest in the topic. If there is no interest in the topic where it's posted...it will quickly drop off the main page, right?



Apr 28, 2019 at 05:15 PM
charles.K
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p.3 #4 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


chez wrote:
Just doing a quick scan of the "Latest Photography News" forum it appears the vast majority of threads in it are cross posted from other forums. So yeh...maybe this thread should also appear in that forum...but it seems to be very active where it resides...which is a good thing as there is interest in the topic. If there is no interest in the topic where it's posted...it will quickly drop off the main page, right?


The interest from Nikon folks is minimal and yet it inundates the Nikon thread. This is why we have specific sticky posts at the top of the thread that are specific. Remove the cross post from Nikon, keep it in the Sony if you prefer and the Latest Photography News.



Apr 28, 2019 at 05:22 PM
cvrle59
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p.3 #5 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


I used to come here to learn about photography, but the culture here has changed. There are more and more threads, especially cross-posted, about which dady is bigger or stronger, and this is certainly one of them. Usually, these kind of threads will take us nowhere, IMO.
If I were in charge of this forum, I would open a separate section, which would be dedicated to the industry, marketing or similar, to leave existing sections to photographers.
Some people like to be in the "winning crowd", and they're constantly feeding with kind of information, which will prove, yes I made right choice.
To me, that didn't matter back then, and it doesn't matter now.
When I picked my system decades ago, Canon was bigger than Nikon, but I liked Nikon better.
Recently, Fuji is nowhere close to the industry leaders, but I use Fuji (Nikon PF may get me back to DSLR, 300mm and 500mm are so unique). So do I care who sells the most, actually, I don't.
To close out this post, and to answer the topic question: whoever wants to improve numbers, it should realize that marketing tools have been changed. Build the product to satisfy "professional youtube reviewers" and spend money on those, that may help more than quality of you product. It doesn't take much to see how many subscribers some of those have. People who buy first time new product unfortunately learn from them, not from professional highly rated photograpers.
Those are too busy doing what they're the best at, they don't have time to promote products for gear manufacturers.


Edited on Apr 28, 2019 at 06:19 PM · View previous versions



Apr 28, 2019 at 05:52 PM
lukemeup
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p.3 #6 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


There's a Polish proverb - not sure if there's a direct equivalent in English: "The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on." Seems apt.


Apr 28, 2019 at 05:59 PM
LBJ2
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p.3 #7 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


Curious to know how well the RP sells. Does it represent the new low end to replace all those vanishing P&S cameras/revenue devoured by smartphones? Interesting Canon opened up the RP to 3rd party developers too. Is the RP just a diversion while they bring the new pro mirrorless up to competitive standards? Or is Canon truly trying to revive the lower end of the market that until the smart phone was a big revenue stream for them.

Might there be some RP sales surprises? From what I read, looks the a6000 is still selling very well.

The market is certainly going through a shake out, but these guys have all seen tough and tougher times before.



Apr 28, 2019 at 06:08 PM
1bwana1
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p.3 #8 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


According to the BCN chart the RP is just under 15% market share and falling.

Canon has been very open about the fact that they are developing an upscale mirrorless with pro features to be released in the near future. Whatever that means.



Apr 28, 2019 at 06:30 PM
LBJ2
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p.3 #9 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


I missed that. Looks pretty bad for the RP in this chart. What’s the time period for this data?

https://d1nzh4uot4722i.cloudfront.net/files/user/201904241112_4.jpg?v=1556071954



Apr 28, 2019 at 06:39 PM
1bwana1
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p.3 #10 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


March/April


Apr 28, 2019 at 06:51 PM
Jaree
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p.3 #11 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


"
Fix the FTZ so it gives full F-Nikkor compatibility ie the FTZd with AI ring and S'driver AF motor. This will sell a pile of Z cameras to established Nikon users, as well as support aspiring youngsters on a budget to get up and shooting"

Are aspiring youngsters really going to buy an expensive mirrorless so they can use F lenses with an adapter.

chambeshi wrote:
These sales appear to be in Japan only. There are trends, but key data are missing. One is the Z7 released before the Z6 and EOS RP. Second, the global sales are a prerequisite to get a better insights across ILC market.
Nevertheless, have to jump to several releases at once.

1. Better firmware on timely releases with portal to registered users. The eagerly awaited May release will be a watershed in key respects.... a body of prospective investors are holding out to see what it fixes besides Eye-AF

2. More affordable Z5 FX camera is priority. Already overdue

3. Fix the FTZ
...Show more



Apr 28, 2019 at 06:53 PM
PixiPhotography
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p.3 #12 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon



For their first full-frame mirrorless, Nikon did very well. Outshining the A7R-III in many aspects. And now that Nikon is releasing their new firmware update and adding Eye-AF, its going to be even better. I trust that had Nikon released the Z7 with dual-card slots and better battery life, it would be a clear choice to many. It's also suffering what Sony did at the beginning, which is a lack of lens choices.



Apr 28, 2019 at 06:58 PM
LBJ2
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p.3 #13 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


Yes. Lack of lenses was painful for a couple of years during the early Sony days. However Canon seems intent on dropping Nine new lenses for their new mount. That’s impressive IMO.

Do you think Nikon will opt for a shorter camera refresh cycle for the Z? Or just bring in another higher end camera with two card slots, bigger battery etc.?

Canon’s got everyone waiting for the Pro EOS. I bet that will have two card slots.



Apr 28, 2019 at 07:15 PM
lightskyland
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p.3 #14 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


Realistically, the fact that neither Nikon nor Canon has a viable APS-C camera lineup right now with their new lens mounts is leading to some very serious problems for their entire mirrorless strategy. Sony is taking full advantage.


Apr 28, 2019 at 07:27 PM
Gunzorro
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p.3 #15 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


charles.K wrote:
The interest from Nikon folks is minimal and yet it inundates the Nikon thread. This is why we have specific sticky posts at the top of the thread that are specific. Remove the cross post from Nikon, keep it in the Sony if you prefer and the Latest Photography News.


Charles -- You are always a great compass and arbiter in these discussions, being influenced more by "the image" and less from the brand or latest offering. I certainly appreciate that.

Perhaps the topic might have been better in the Alt forum for exposure without cross-posting to other forums. I find the cross-posting often works against friendly discourse -- then again, there was tremendous bashing when Sony was ascending in popularity and Canon was being reviled by some (few) members.

Like you, I care most for the images, regardless of brand or age of gear. Just for fun, to counterpoint the gear one-upsmanship, here is a quick test shot from obsolete gear. This is a 2-shot pano/composite taken today when the sun broke through the overcast we've been having in So Cal. Tested was a used Zeiss ZE 18mm f/3.5, I'd just received from eBay purchase.

This image could have been "better" from two shots from Sony a7R2, but how much better? When is an image "good enough" for any purpose but wall-size? This is only to make a point, as I use this Canon camera infrequently these days, but it isn't truly obsolete. I could still use it competitively against my newer gear.

Sorry if this takes the thread off-topic, but I'm on the forum to see images and find out how they were made. Gear? Talent? Luck? Enquiring minds want to know.

1Ds3, ZE 18/3.5, LRCC Classic







Apr 28, 2019 at 07:28 PM
LBJ2
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p.3 #16 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


I am interested in the whole industry and in particular what comes next. I find it very interesting how they are all approaching mirrorless. Whoever comes with the “bestest” gets my money. Right now for me that’s Sony and Leica with a few adaptables lenses from Canon and Nikon.

I do however wish some new tech would come along to shrink some of these FF fast mirrorless lenses. Sony GM 24/1.4 is getting pretty close!



Apr 28, 2019 at 07:36 PM
hiepphotog
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p.3 #17 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


LBJ2 wrote:
I am interested in the whole industry and in particular what comes next. I find it very interesting how they are all approaching mirrorless. Whoever comes with the “bestest” gets my money. Right now for me that’s Sony and Leica with a few adaptables lenses from Canon and Nikon.

I do however wish some new tech would come along to shrink some of these FF fast mirrorless lenses. Sony GM 24/1.4 is getting pretty close!


I would put my money into the bestest system for my needs as well . And I too want the smaller/lighter lenses in the given class. It seems to me that only Sony, and to some extents Canon, really focuses on shrinking the size and weight while keeping the IQ high enough. I'm not quite sure about Nikon at this time since it looks like they're trying to normalize the lens size for each tier (the 35, 50, 24-70/4 and 14-30 are about the same size). This can make certain lenses bigger while might compromise certain lenses more than needed to keep the size down. I need to see their take on the 50/1.2 to see what they have in mind to compete with the Canon. Panasonic forwent the size and weight to make "reference" lenses just like their L-mount alliance partners, Leica and Sigma. I wish Leica would have gone back to their roots and design a mirrorless system with size and weight in mind. The M survived this long largely because of that.



Apr 28, 2019 at 08:09 PM
swldstn
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p.3 #18 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


Reading this is interesting to hear everyones opinion on why Canon and Nikon are having less success than they want. For me, a long time Canon shooter, who owns plenty of Sony gear now, and have not spent any money on Canon gear since 2016 is that Canon has not provided me with a mirrorless body that makes me want to stop using my 5D Mark IV. My Sony A9 an d A7RIII's accomplished that and now get all my attention right now. The A9 convinced me to sell the 1DX I had for it silent shooting, fast speed and smaller size. The A7Riii provided much more versatility than 5DsR even though I owned a 5D Mark III at the time. I even liked the A7iii I bought but traded it out for a second a7RIII when used prices dropped so much.

Is two card slots key to me? No but now that I can get it in a mirrorless or dslr product why would I want to give that up? Also I think, for me, Eye AF is key on all the Sony bodies. Canon and Nikon's miss on that was a big reason I didn't consider either of them as an alternative. I I am very happy with the Sony and Zeiss lenses and now consider them a major strength of using the Sony bodies. I like the light weight of the Batis and the high quality of the GM which made me comfortable enough to sell five of my Canon primes.

Still own the 5D Mark IV and several zooms and two TS-E but won't buy more Canon gear unless they can provide a RF mount body that is best in class. The EOS R was interesting but not best in class at anything.



Apr 28, 2019 at 08:18 PM
akul
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p.3 #19 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


LBJ2 wrote:
I missed that. Looks pretty bad for the RP in this chart. What’s the time period for this data?

https://d1nzh4uot4722i.cloudfront.net/files/user/201904241112_4.jpg?v=1556071954


March 11 - April 8 less than a month. It may look drastic, but if you think about it. The total number of sales is not that big, and it is a very short period. Within the small sample of time, small shift may appear pretty big, but, RP just started selling, but did not have more interest than the initial crowd to keep longer sustain, which does not mean there won't be more demand further down. All in all, as I said, this is just too short period of a tiny market ( Japan). You need to be Ms. Ttrelawny to read this tea leaves.



Apr 28, 2019 at 08:29 PM
henry albert
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p.3 #20 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


akul wrote:
You need to be Ms. Ttrelawny to read this tea leaves.


Had to Google that one, revealing my woeful ignorance of pop culture references.




Apr 28, 2019 at 09:56 PM
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