p.23 #1 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
gdanmitchell wrote:
The ideal might be a separate forum along the lines of "Brand Comparisons." It is a popular subject, often generating pages of posts, so why not give it its own forum?
(One is tempted to suggest "Camera Wars" as the name. ;-)
New camera buyers often wonder what brand they should get — even if that often isn't the most important question for them to answer — and this would tend to make it easier to find those discussion directly. Those who already have camera systems and wish to compare could also focus their efforts there.
Dan
I like the idea, Dan. "Camera Wars," "Vendor Wars," Brand Wars," etc...
p.23 #2 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
Why do people have such emotional attachment to big corporation and physical items. It make no sense. Camera are just tools. Just pick the one you prefer. There is no wrong choices here.
p.23 #4 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
I have been with canon since 1988. It is hard for me to believe this is actually 30 years. I did weddings with MF and canon. I worked for a newspaper. I have done a lot of sports. The only thing I can say is that it is not the camera; it is the picture, the ease of developing and/or the quality of external processing that I used for my weddings that have driven me not the brand of camera which was a Bronica for MF then. It made good pictures. Having said that I am thrilled with my Canon rp and rf lens. Full frame is a big difference for me. I do my own printing and there is a definite difference in the quality of pictures and prints I am making from the rp. Is this not what this is all about? I guess I am old fashioned as I have always used and made the best of the gear that was available at the time. I still can't believe it has been thirty years. I keep wishing it was only twenty. The gear was adequate then too. .
p.23 #5 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
DAphoto77 wrote:
I have been with canon since 1988. It is hard for me to believe this is actually 30 years. I did weddings with MF and canon. I worked for a newspaper. I have done a lot of sports. The only thing I can say is that it is not the camera; it is the picture, the ease of developing and/or the quality of external processing that I used for my weddings that have driven me not the brand of camera which was a Bronica for MF then. It made good pictures. Having said that I am thrilled with my Canon rp and rf lens. Full frame is a big difference for me. I do my own printing and there is a definite difference in the quality of pictures and prints I am making from the rp. Is this not what this is all about? I guess I am old fashioned as I have always used and made the best of the gear that was available at the time. I still can't believe it has been thirty years. I keep wishing it was only twenty. The gear was adequate then too. . ...Show more →
Very true, but in the past with film cameras it was just the film format, camera style and some ergonomics which made the biggest difference. Now with digital, there are a lot more parameters to consider to which brand you want to vest in. Is it sensor performance including resolution and/or DR, sensor size, camera size, EVF or OVF, in-camera stabilization or in-lens, software functions, menus etc? So yes, in the end it is a tool, but depending on personal preference one camera might be for a similar price superior for one user than for another. Major digital brands have now quite differentiated and focus on different groups of users. In the end both for example the Canon RP and an Sony FF MLC take good pictures, but regarding camera properties what can be ignored by one is important and essential for another user. That's why opinions differ severely as shown in this thread - we have a mass of good gear choices which are all better than anything available just 10 years ago.
May 10, 2019 at 10:23 AM
AmbientMike Offline • • • • • • [X]
p.23 #6 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
I thought about it, and my previous post wasn't entirely correct. Canon hasn't really gone high end with the bodies, but, boy, they have on lenses. F/2 zoom, 50mm that actually performs at 1.2, and the 85/1.2.
Less expensive bodies plus an adapter for photographers that already have EF maybe not too bad. And 5D4 sensor apparently, in R for less money.
p.23 #10 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
My last camera was a 7dII. It did 10 frames per second. I shot large venue swim meets with that camera and occasionally used 10 fps on starts. I stopped doing meets after ten years. If I were still doing them I would still have the 7dII. The rp is fine for large prints. The 7dII not so much although I did print a number of 7dII blowups of swimmers in action that came out fine. Although I have not done any recently I think I could do weddings rp or r bodies. I am sure they would do a great job of capturing white wedding dresses. The evf on the r would be important I think. It depends upon what you expect from a camera. Because of volume I did outside processing and wedding dresses would come out fine. The big issue with weddings for me was processing and printing which I had done outside because of time constraints and volume. If I were still doing weddings I would still do that I think because I delivered weddings within two weeks most times. I had a good arrangement wiith a processor.
p.23 #11 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
retrofocus wrote:
Very true, but in the past with film cameras it was just the film format, camera style and some ergonomics which made the biggest difference. Now with digital, there are a lot more parameters to consider to which brand you want to vest in. Is it sensor performance including resolution and/or DR, sensor size, camera size, EVF or OVF, in-camera stabilization or in-lens, software functions, menus etc? So yes, in the end it is a tool, but depending on personal preference one camera might be for a similar price superior for one user than for another. Major digital brands have now quite differentiated and focus on different groups of users. In the end both for example the Canon RP and an Sony FF MLC take good pictures, but regarding camera properties what can be ignored by one is important and essential for another user. That's why opinions differ severely as shown in this thread - we have a mass of good gear choices which are all better than anything available just 10 years ago. ...Show more →
I think this is a bit similar to the early days of analog SLR cameras (or even early days of cars with combustion engine ...) when there were many players with sometimes very different approach regarding features, lens options etc. I chose Olympus OM in the late seventies because it was a very new system with a fresh market approach that emphasized light/compact but very capable cameras with a special attention to closeup / macro photography and advanced flash photography. Later on (with AF technology etc.) SLR technology converged with often relatively similar options from the major brands.
When a market matures you get a few dominant players that are relatively similar under the hood while their marketing tries to depict them as complete adversaries both in the products they make and in spirit/following. We should enjoy the different approaches in MILC cameras but I doubt this will last more than 5-10 years.
p.23 #12 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
technic wrote:
...you get a few dominant players that are relatively similar under the hood while their marketing tries to depict them as complete adversaries both in the products they make and in spirit/following...
p.23 #13 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
fogboundturtle wrote:
Why do people have such emotional attachment to big corporation and physical items. It make no sense. Camera are just tools. Just pick the one you prefer. There is no wrong choices here.
Careful! I got in trouble here recently by giving my opinion questioning company tactics on new technology ! lol.
I guess there's a reason each make has it's own forum category or it would be mass chaos with company allegiance missiles flying everywhere!
p.23 #14 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
technic wrote:
When a market matures you get a few dominant players that are relatively similar under the hood while their marketing tries to depict them as complete adversaries both in the products they make and in spirit/following. We should enjoy the different approaches in MILC cameras but I doubt this will last more than 5-10 years.
Well, I don't think that the main manufacturers of MLCs are "similar under the hood" - there are IMO many severe differences between them. This is a good thing because it gives the consumer more choices. Biggest difference IMO is in regard to sensor performance - not only in resolution and DR, but also in sensor glass cover thickness important when adapting certain third party lenses. Will different trends lead to a performance merger in MLCs? Yes, I agree here. But before this comes I believe we will see image company mergers since the overall market forces them to look into consolidation. We already start seeing this in the form of the Leica/Sigma/Panasonic alliance - this is just the first step.
p.23 #15 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
gdanmitchell wrote:
The ideal might be a separate forum along the lines of "Brand Comparisons." It is a popular subject, often generating pages of posts, so why not give it its own forum?
(One is tempted to suggest "Camera Wars" as the name. ;-)
New camera buyers often wonder what brand they should get — even if that often isn't the most important question for them to answer — and this would tend to make it easier to find those discussion directly. Those who already have camera systems and wish to compare could also focus their efforts there.
Dan
Great idea! Maybe instill some humor also as the brand war discussions must appear so childish to those who are not into photography
p.23 #17 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
Analysis of Sony's sales data (according to Sony) is too opaque to compare to the other brands. While sales of still ILCs (including lenses) increased, sales of video cameras declined 23%
Adequate support to customers will be critical to how well the top 3 companies perform. Canon has cut training staff in the US, and Nikon too in S Africa. Thom argues this area is where Sony has the modern model for support. And it is also acting on the reality expected by cellphone users (and more and more photographers) that cameras have to become tightly linked into the internet via wireless. And their marketing reflects this:
"I'd argue that Canon and Nikon are executing old models in this respect. It's more rah-rah and look at our pro names than here's how to do things and how to have fun with our gear (though there is some of that). I came across this gem the other day from my friend Patrick Murphy-Racey on Sony's AlphaUniverse in an article they presented on sports workflow: "For his final step, he copies the name of the first image in the file folders and adds it to a Google calendar on that day. So now he has the information in a globally searchable calendar that lives in the cloud." I'm not getting that level of information from Canon and Nikon. Nor am I getting much about the "fun" of their products, either. "
Well on the one hand, Nikon have committed (finally) to "...Enhance coordination with social media/imaging apps to offer a unique imaging experience that stretches beyond shooting"
p.23 #18 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
I am a Canon user, although my newest camera is the 5Diii so I don’t upgrade often.
To me the simple answer is innovation. Canon got out in front in the very early years of digital and held a lead for many years. Then I think Nikon caught up and (I don’t have sales figures so this is seat of the pants admittedly) began to offer better products than Canon, but it seems neither saw Sony coming.
Just look at how many new models of higher end cameras Sony has introduced in the past 6 years. The A7 series came out in late 2013, and is on generation III already, which have been out for about a year and a half. Not to get lost is that Sony also introduced the A9 in 2017.
Canon came out with the 1Dx in 2011, and the 1Dx II In 2016. And yeah, there were a couple 5D upgrades in there. But no mirrorless until the RP in 2019 which doesn’t seem to be enough to slow the Sony juggernaut.
p.23 #19 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
You are correct. Innovation is the crux. And Canon demonstrated this bringing out the first Image Stabilisation (if my history is correct) and their Autofocus left Nikon behind through the 1990s. Both these features relied on solid state electronics already some 3 decades back.
Today innovations hinge as much on electronics (ie falter cpus, sensors and software) as well as hardware (optics especially). This will key to put out a global shutter and other innovations. Software not only in-camera processing and AF etc, but increasingly in communications. No longer is a camera shot off the grid, at least on sports fields, by media and especially by millenials. Sharing images and sharing near instantly is being demanded. The top tier ILC companies ignore this, as it sells more of your cameras...and then your lenses...Perhaps even upgrades
OTH shortcuts and neglect of the haptics and reliability score big penalties.
Recently, Canon and Sony have edged ahead of Nikon with lighter super telephotos. These are low volume exotic products but lens mass is also an important factor in innovation. Witness the DO and PF lenses....provided these lenses are relatively affordable.
p.23 #20 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
Emotional commitment not as such, as meant here. But a big but, and personal circumstances are important. Sony in 2013 began delivering tiny quiet cameras with superb high ISO and IBIS, and lens versatility. If you shoot discreet often stealth in EV zero and need top quality, you will appreciate 'the enabler' - the only one trying to do what you need - rather quickly. 30,000 images later, and four books later, I am happy to publicly thank Sony.
Nothing wrong with liking equipment, I thought it was a guy thing for many. Tyres that save your life in the wet, sockets and torque wrenches that never round bolt heads, MTBs you can jump ten feet with, etc. I'm not alone. The more excellence counts, the more appreciation you oughta have in my book. Lots of mediocre stuff in our lives. Gear is not all 'good enough'.
