p.13 #2 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
sflxn wrote:
$1k and up APS-C MILC are under pressure from both smartphone (with zoom lens and computational photography) and $1k FF cameras (e.g. A7II). As much as some people want to believe "high-end" aps-c and m43 will continue to do well, it doesn't make it so. These next generation of smartphones are getting perilously close in image quality.
Smartphones are only close to APS-C ILC image quality if you don't need anything else than a relatively dim 28mm equiv. WA lens, or an even dimmer ~50mm equiv. "tele" lens. There is no way smartphones are going to replace e.g. dedicated sports/wildlife lenses/bodies in the near future. A recent and usually fairly expensive smartphone may be competitive for selfies, general walkaround photography, maybe even personal travel photography in good light - but there are a lot of subjects where it cannot compete with an APS-C ILC. And for some of those subjects, FF doesn't compete well with APS-C either due to requirements of long focal length / high pixel density.
As long as the camera companies don't try to update their models every year or so with some other useless updates, they will be fine IMHO. It worked several decades ago so it could work again. Somehow they have to move to a model were the hardware has a longer lifetime and features/performance and revenue are more based on firmware/software improvements than on frequent hardware replacement. We are beginning that transition now.
p.13 #3 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
technic wrote:
Smartphones are only close to APS-C ILC image quality if you don't need anything else than a relatively dim 28mm equiv. WA lens, or an even dimmer ~50mm equiv. "tele" lens. There is no way smartphones are going to replace e.g. dedicated sports/wildlife lenses/bodies in the near future. A recent and usually fairly expensive smartphone may be competitive for selfies, general walkaround photography, maybe even personal travel photography in good light - but there are a lot of subjects where it cannot compete with an APS-C ILC. And for some of those subjects, FF doesn't compete well with APS-C either due to requirements of long focal length / high pixel density.
As long as the camera companies don't try to update their models every year or so with some other useless updates, they will be fine IMHO. It worked several decades ago so it could work again. Somehow they have to move to a model were the hardware has a longer lifetime and features/performance and revenue are more based on firmware/software improvements than on frequent hardware replacement. We are beginning that transition now....Show more →
p.13 #4 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
technic wrote:
As long as the camera companies don't try to update their models every year or so with some other useless updates, they will be fine IMHO. It worked several decades ago so it could work again. Somehow they have to move to a model were the hardware has a longer lifetime and features/performance and revenue are more based on firmware/software improvements than on frequent hardware replacement. We are beginning that transition now.
I don't know. It seems like consumers patience for the "next best thing" is way less then it was several decades ago. Look at Apple, you've got yearly updates for a lot of gear. People have grown use to it. Maybe meaningful FW updates will solve the problem but I wouldn't count on it. I see a Sony type development cycle becoming more prevalent then a longer Canikon one.
I know for myself I've become extremely impatient with Canon since the A9 came out. Heck, I'm even impatient with Sony for not having an A9II out yet.
Even after the upcoming firmware updates for the Z cameras, the focus system will be a couple of generations behind.
I can only imagine what the a9II is going to be like. Sony describes it as revolutionary, not evolutionary. It will likely be my next large camera purchase.
p.13 #6 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
I knew the A9 was something extraordinary when I first fired 20 FPS on the Motocross track. Not sure many realize the technical feat Sony pulled off with the A9's LSI but you know its something special when you see the AF in action at 20 FPS silent.
The surprise 5.0 and coming 6.0 firmware just keeps the amazement going IMO.
Even after the upcoming firmware updates for the Z cameras, the focus system will be a couple of generations behind.
I can only imagine what the a9II is going to be like. Sony describes it as revolutionary, not evolutionary. It will likely be my next large camera purchase.
p.13 #8 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
Sorry it is a new video on sonyalpharumors.com showing real time tracking at work in different sports. I am on phone and can't figure out how to copy a working link. I will fix from home this evening.
Even after the upcoming firmware updates for the Z cameras, the focus system will be a couple of generations behind.
I can only imagine what the a9II is going to be like. Sony describes it as revolutionary, not evolutionary. It will likely be my next large camera purchase.
There is trouble brewing because indeed Canon and Nikon are far behind in AF/tracking performance and framerate compared to A9 and I don't think there is a chance they will catch up within 2 years (and definitely not in an slightly affordable camera). But this is only important to a relatively small part of the market (less than 5-10%?). Also Canikon still have obvious advantages with ergonomics and their lens line (certainly with native lenses for sports and wildlife/action). Never underestimate the marketing muscle of companies like Canon when selling products that are technically inferior in several important ways.
I don't know how this will play out, if Sony also manages to add some more computational imaging magic to cameras like A9II (and lower models) that might give them another solid advantage to attract new customers. But until now Sony has not been very successful on the software front.
p.13 #11 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
ggreene wrote:
It's a Patrick Murphy Racey video (Sony Artisan).
One small clarification. It ain't called "100 mile an hour tape" only in Carolina. It's called that darn near everywhere in North America you find race cars.
This incomprehensibly valuable bit of racing trivia brought to you by the Frostbite Falls Chapter of the Polish Racing Drivers of Amerika. Yer welcome.
p.13 #12 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
He seems unfamiliar with the Nikon dynamic focusing mode. If you are properly using dynamic, a Nikon DSLR will NOT switch focus to an arm or racket that momentarily comes between you and the target.
p.13 #13 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
technic wrote:
There is trouble brewing because indeed Canon and Nikon are far behind in AF/tracking performance
Behind, yes, but I don't know about far behind. We haven't yet seen Nikon's A9 competitor. I'm willing to bet it comes with a turbocharged version of the focus tracking we see in the Z6.
p.13 #14 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
henry albert wrote:
Behind, yes, but I don't know about far behind. We haven't yet seen Nikon's A9 competitor. I'm willing to bet it comes with a turbocharged version of the focus tracking we see in the Z6.
p.13 #15 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
henry albert wrote:
He seems unfamiliar with the Nikon dynamic focusing mode. If you are properly using dynamic, a Nikon DSLR will NOT switch focus to an arm or racket that momentarily comes between you and the target.
The guy used to shoot with Nikon and published videos on Nikon stuff as well. The whole point of that video is not just about how sticky the AF is to the target, but also how it seamlessly switches from eyes, body and maintain the sharp focus on what really matters of the subjects. Again, there is no AF tech from Nikon that can compete with this. But it doesn't really matter much for the vast majority of people so it might not be a factor for a lot. Heck, people are happy with the contrast only DFD from Pany.
p.13 #17 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
hiepphotog wrote:
The guy used to shoot with Nikon and published videos on Nikon stuff as well. The whole point of that video is not just about how sticky the AF is to the target, but also how it seamlessly switches from eyes, body and maintain the sharp focus on what really matters of the subjects. Again, there is no AF tech from Nikon that can compete with this. But it doesn't really matter much for the vast majority of people so it might not be a factor for a lot. Heck, people are happy with the contrast only DFD from Pany.
The whole point of my post is that he made an incorrect statement about how Nikon DSLRs function.
p.13 #18 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
henry albert wrote:
Behind, yes, but I don't know about far behind. We haven't yet seen Nikon's A9 competitor. I'm willing to bet it comes with a turbocharged version of the focus tracking we see in the Z6.
I agree that it is mostly behind in technical sense, not really (yet) in practical sense. Depending on situation the D500 and D850 will do quite well compared to A9. When comparing only mirrorless options I think the lead of Sony A9 is already more obvious. What I really meant is that DSLR technology is running up against practical limits and has little room for improvement while A9 technology (stacked sensor, lots of on-sensor processing, more possibilities for computational imaging etc.) has lots of room to grow. I don't think Canikon will have these stacked sensors and the other hardware that needs to come with it in the near future, because for now Sony is the only one producing it and you need significant volume to make it profitable. I don't see Sony offering their crown jewels to Nikon but who knows
p.13 #19 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
LBJ2 wrote:
To me, this means possibly there is a vacancy for their coming Pro mirrorless model.
If that would be the case, they would have drawn a camera contour with dotted lines in the empty Pro case. As is, there is no suggestion it would ever come.
p.13 #20 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon
technic wrote:
I agree that it is mostly behind in technical sense, not really (yet) in practical sense. Depending on situation the D500 and D850 will do quite well compared to A9. When comparing only mirrorless options I think the lead of Sony A9 is already more obvious. What I really meant is that DSLR technology is running up against practical limits and has little room for improvement while A9 technology (stacked sensor, lots of on-sensor processing, more possibilities for computational imaging etc.) has lots of room to grow. I don't think Canikon will have these stacked sensors and the other hardware that needs to come with it in the near future, because for now Sony is the only one producing it and you need significant volume to make it profitable. I don't see Sony offering their crown jewels to Nikon but who knows ...Show more →
Isn't Sony using machines made by Nikon to produce sensors that are installed in Nikon cameras according to Nikons specifications? Or at least machines that are similar to those made by Nikon? And it would be perfectly possible to have two sensor in a DSLR camera - one that is exclusively focused on image quality, and another that is primarily geared towards autofocus, but catches enough data for contrast AF, face recognition, exposure fine-tuning etc.
