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Archive 2018 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread

  
 
joakim
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p.15 #1 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


Color shift

Zeiss 85/1.4 Planar ZF.2












Oct 27, 2018 at 10:09 AM
rscheffler
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p.15 #2 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


Michael, thanks for testing those M lenses on the Z7! I know how much work it is to do this and appreciate the effort very much.

21 SEM, 50 Lux ASPH and 35/1.7M are staples in my M kit and they all look to do well on 40+MP. The 50 Lux ASPH performance with its mid zone dip looks to be similar to that on an M body. I'd guess resampling Z7 images down to 24MP will result in sharper looking images than native 24MP.

Not having followed the Nikon Z release news very closely, what are the anticipated major differences pertaining to MF shooting experience between the Z6 and Z7? I'd be tempted to get one to augment the M240 and the Z6 would be more budget friendly for this kind of niche use.

Being a Canon system guy, I was recently at a Canon EOS R demo hosted by Canon and had a chance to talk shop with some of the Canon tech support people. Adapting non-Canon MF glass isn't really on their radar, so was unable to get concrete info on sensor glass thickness. The guess is it will be similar to EF mount DSLRs to maintain consistency with the EF line. For my uses, the Canon RF system is a logical progression for my EF lens collection. But the Nikon Z cameras would probably be the better fit with adapted rangefinder and other vintage glass, if only for IBIS and thin sensor stack.

I change lenses a lot when I shoot - how much of a hassle is it to set the adapted lens's focal length for correct IBIS operation?



Oct 27, 2018 at 11:32 AM
joakim
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p.15 #3 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


If I remember correctly the Z6 is not some dumbed down version of the Z7 with lower quality components, instead the only thing differentiating them is the sensor and everything else is equal. I'm not going to take poison on it but that is what I remembered reading.

You can store up to 20 Non-cpu lenses in a list with focal length and max aperture (so really twenty combinations of focal length and aperture) in a list and either change the selected lens via menu or assign that function to one of the custom buttons. I just tried to do this and can now change the Non-cpu lens using the video button and one of the dials.



Oct 27, 2018 at 03:23 PM
davewolfs
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p.15 #4 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


I recall reading somewhere that Z7 has AF fine tune. Is this true? If so how is AF fine tuning applicable to a mirror less camera?


Oct 27, 2018 at 06:29 PM
charles.K
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p.15 #5 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


davewolfs wrote:
I recall reading somewhere that Z7 has AF fine tune. Is this true? If so how is AF fine tuning applicable to a mirror less camera?


Here is an article by Focal with reference to fine tuning and MILC.

http://blog.reikanfocal.com/2018/10/the-new-nikon-z7-investigating-with-reikan-focal/



Oct 27, 2018 at 06:36 PM
suteetat
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p.15 #6 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


I played a bit with 24/3.8 today. Wide open, the corner is still quite a mess but the corner cleaned up very nicely stepping down.

The whole picture, just converted from nef to jpg and resized only. Taken at F8
test 24 i by Suteetat S, on Flickr

100% cropped, left picture is the center tree where I did my focus
and right, upper left corner almost right into the corner. I had to lift shadow quite a bit but otherwise no other adjustment.

test 24 ii by Suteetat S, on Flickr

The shot was taken on tripod, 5s delay, EFCS on.



Oct 27, 2018 at 06:57 PM
davewolfs
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p.15 #7 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


Doesn’t make much sense to me. I would think that the software would be able to auto correct itself to some degree or suggest an adjustment.

charles.K wrote:
Here is an article by Focal with reference to fine tuning and MILC.

http://blog.reikanfocal.com/2018/10/the-new-nikon-z7-investigating-with-reikan-focal/




Oct 27, 2018 at 07:27 PM
charles.K
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p.15 #8 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


davewolfs wrote:
Doesn’t make much sense to me. I would think that the software would be able to auto correct itself to some degree or suggest an adjustment.



Technically there is no need but with mechanical tolerances having the minor adjustment for fine tuning is an excellent option



Oct 27, 2018 at 07:30 PM
charles.K
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p.15 #9 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


From Michael's shots with the 21 SEM wide open I see no smearing which was the major issue with the A7r.

After a period it is hard to remember the IQ and performance of many lenses as so many have now improved. I have included a far bottom corner shot with the M240 and 21 SEM @ f/3.4








Edited on Oct 28, 2018 at 02:07 AM · View previous versions



Oct 27, 2018 at 08:45 PM
zhangyue
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p.15 #10 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


rscheffler wrote:
Michael, thanks for testing those M lenses on the Z7! I know how much work it is to do this and appreciate the effort very much.

21 SEM, 50 Lux ASPH and 35/1.7M are staples in my M kit and they all look to do well on 40+MP. The 50 Lux ASPH performance with its mid zone dip looks to be similar to that on an M body. I'd guess resampling Z7 images down to 24MP will result in sharper looking images than native 24MP.


Ron, My too feel 21SEM, 35VC and 50lux are perfect set. 35VC is a sleeper actually. I need use it more. (more samples later)
However, My gut feeling is M have slightly advantage even my adapter has no decenter issue. I will update this shortly. I redo my shimming process, it is still not fully solve the issue but better. I check my 35VC test on M, it is shocker to me to remind me how good that lens is. It fully usable at f1.7 to extreme corner. I doubt adapter can give that kind of performance on Z7, so is 21SEM.

One thing for sure, there is no smear which means for landscape shot, if you stop them to f5.6, they are perfectly useable. F4 might work as well.


rscheffler wrote:
Not having followed the Nikon Z release news very closely, what are the anticipated major differences pertaining to MF shooting experience between the Z6 and Z7? I'd be tempted to get one to augment the M240 and the Z6 would be more budget friendly for this kind of niche use.


Z6 will be basically Z7 minus 20M pixel. Yes, the AF point will be less, but pixel density will less as well. so AF should work faster for less signal need to process and less requirement for accuracy due to less pixel.

rscheffler wrote:
Being a Canon system guy, I was recently at a Canon EOS R demo hosted by Canon and had a chance to talk shop with some of the Canon tech support people. Adapting non-Canon MF glass isn't really on their radar, so was unable to get concrete info on sensor glass thickness. The guess is it will be similar to EF mount DSLRs to maintain consistency with the EF line. For my uses, the Canon RF system is a logical progression for my EF lens collection. But the Nikon Z cameras would probably be the better fit with adapted rangefinder
...Show more

For initial Lens introduced, if the system are not for landscape use and not used for travel, Canon is just better. As mentioned in other thread, 50f1.2L is the best 50mm lens I have seen. I have seen many samples and review from it. It is an awesome glass. Sharp, smooth and good color control. 28-70 have great sunstar with almost flawless optics as well. and I do like R's color very much I almost want give the system a try. The system's future looks bright, very bright. They just need a better body IMO.

As mentioned, Z is totally usable for M glass. I am gonna post a few more test results later. I'd suggest you wait a little bit for R's results before make decision, especially for your case with extensive canon Glass. BTW, Canon's adapters are also better with build in control ring. A feature is so good for EC. It is so quick and intuitive to use then a dedicate wheel.

As for CPU lens change, for now, I put it in my customer manu. For two front Fun button, I use for AF and format ratio. Movie button I use for bring up my customer manu. For your case, if you don't need format ratio as much as I do, you can put CPU lens selection there. So it is extreme fast to get it down. One thing keep in mind is at least for now, Z7 won't record EXIF lens information. However IBIS works fine to take what ever lens information you put there.

As for shooting M glass on Z, I don't know how comfortable you do manual focus on it, for me, I have no problem cover most cases with very good success rate especially for M and R glass.(lens like OTUS require absolutely accuracy) Z7 give me best manual focus keeper rate than any other camera I used no matter OVF or EVF. (Leica S is similar under good light, but it is slower than Nikon)

However, I am not sure I can nail focus with wide angle slow glass like 21SEM, I never tried though but my past experience is still M is the best system for that.

A image at least.
35mm VC, look this flare control.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1973/45577279671_022049f9fc_h.jpg


Edited on Oct 28, 2018 at 03:43 AM · View previous versions



Oct 28, 2018 at 01:37 AM
joakim
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p.15 #11 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


suteetat wrote:
I played a bit with 24/3.8 today. Wide open, the corner is still quite a mess but the corner cleaned up very nicely stepping down.

The whole picture, just converted from nef to jpg and resized only. Taken at F8
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1904/30648214777_489c8b139c_o.jpgtest 24 i by Suteetat S, on Flickr

100% cropped, left picture is the center tree where I did my focus
and right, upper left corner almost right into the corner. I had to lift shadow quite a bit but otherwise no other adjustment.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1920/43771717030_9ccba53a01_o.jpgtest 24 ii by Suteetat S, on Flickr

The shot was taken on tripod, 5s delay, EFCS on.


Thanks that looks good. I haven’t really checked when diffraction comes into play on this camera but if I can use this lens at f/8 then I am more than pleased.




Oct 28, 2018 at 03:05 AM
zhangyue
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p.15 #12 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


suteetat wrote:
I played a bit with 24/3.8 today. Wide open, the corner is still quite a mess but the corner cleaned up very nicely stepping down.

The whole picture, just converted from nef to jpg and resized only. Taken at F8
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1904/30648214777_489c8b139c_o.jpgtest 24 i by Suteetat S, on Flickr

100% cropped, left picture is the center tree where I did my focus
and right, upper left corner almost right into the corner. I had to lift shadow quite a bit but otherwise no other adjustment.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1920/43771717030_9ccba53a01_o.jpgtest 24 ii by Suteetat S, on Flickr

The shot was taken on tripod, 5s delay, EFCS on.


Thanks for the testing. No smear at f8. How is the adapter quality? Does it hit infinity correctly on lens mark?
---------------------------------------------

davewolfs wrote:
Doesn’t make much sense to me. I would think that the software would be able to auto correct itself to some degree or suggest an adjustment.


I haven't personally read the link Charles posted. However if you following this thread here, I did talk about it hereandhere. It was a thought process I have about Z7's AF.
Basically, from my understanding, PDAF is open loop process: camera detect phase difference, based on difference, drive lens to focus point. for example: AF sensor detect phase difference, and request lens front focus by 15 step. That is it.
CDAF is feedback system, it don't know it was front focus or back focus, it can only drive the lens one way or the other to determine contrast difference, it is slow, but always get optimized focus results. I believe Z7 is using hybrid focus that PDAF to determine initial step. and CDAF will finalize result for given PDAF window. What AF fine tune to try to address first part. That is why, when I screw up my AF fine tune purposely, the AF results still sucks.

However, as mentioned, out of all my F glass, only 58G require minor adjust. -3. This is the benefit of MILC with on sensor AF. The focus path and image path are guarantee the same.
I also believe, CDAF must have pre-determined working range based on lens, thus even PDAF miss a little bit, CDAF will always be able to correct it.

This is just my theory. Most of them should be correct. However, the real implementation of Z7 is just a guess.
---------------------------------------------

charles.K wrote:
From Michael's shots with the 21 SEM wide open I see no smearing which was the major issue with the A7r.

After a period it is hard to remember the IQ and performance of many lenses as so many have now improved. I have included a far bottom corner shot with the M240 and 21 SEM @ f/3.4



Charles, 21 SEM is better than that. Yours must come from a regular shot and crop to corner which seems close to you I guess. The image is not a infinity test. I could post my M240 results later, but it will be way better than that

OK, here a few more test after I redid shimming. However, this time only hand hold. It is good enough for my purpose. not the best, but information still useful.

90APO
full image

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1920/44864894294_de37891693_h.jpg
no need for center. and WO and f8 only.
f2 corner
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1929/44864903714_7b85e72bd9_o.jpg
f8
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1958/31717644238_e66bb41dc3_o.jpg
35f1.7VC
full frame
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1932/45539379132_c5664c2c3d_h.jpg
f1.7
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1963/44864910854_760bced2d5_o.jpg
f8
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1936/44675920385_746706c69a_o.jpg
21SEM
full image
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1925/44864897314_32a84fde3c_h.jpg
WO
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1917/45589797461_dba479eaaa_o.jpg
f8
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1949/44675916815_870eaea18f_o.jpg

Conclusion:
My shimming job is still not perfect but better than last time. All my lens still hit infinity correctly. the decenter is less this time but still there. Interesting thing is 90APO almost insensitive to this slightly de-centering, similar to 15mm VC I had. 35 and 21 are still show much stronger effect than 90mm. So, adapter thickness definitely will affect results for certain lens than others depend on lens design diagram. As mentioned, I am talking pixel PP, both 35 and 21 are perfectly usable. at f5.6, you cant see decenter difference in corner anymore.

Z7 is extremely good for M glass.



Oct 28, 2018 at 11:27 AM
zhangyue
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p.15 #13 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


uhoh7 wrote:
Now, Michael, can we see what the Z7 looks like with M lenses? Or did I miss that post?


Hi, Charlie, I didn't forget your request. Here are a few iPhone snaps. The real world gear is way more prettier than image can possibly show, not to mention how comfortable they pair

21SEM
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1901/31668177188_9dfeafbd02_b.jpg

35mmf1.7 VC
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1917/31668176968_d0a8010c2e_b.jpg

75mmlux
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1928/30661619647_8e0501b8c2_b.jpg

50mm Summilux R E55
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1911/44688519555_653884e214_b.jpg

90mm APO
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1922/43784793150_5973382a91_b.jpg

35mm Summilux pre-ASPH
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1969/45552050292_cca9733317_b.jpg

35mm Summaron first
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1968/31730230238_237c134500_b.jpg

50mm Summicron Rigid
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1967/31730235758_737c566075_b.jpg



Oct 28, 2018 at 01:12 PM
zhangyue
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p.15 #14 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


Now a few images with 35mmf1.7 VC

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1963/43759941480_a6b17afac7_h.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1965/43759946970_b691f15c67_h.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1925/30636161507_73a8cc666d_h.jpg



Oct 28, 2018 at 01:16 PM
charles.K
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p.15 #15 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


The VC 35/1.7 has always been in my sights! Wonderful shots

zhangyue wrote:
Charles, 21 SEM is better than that. Yours must come from a regular shot and crop to corner which seems close to you I guess. The image is not a infinity test. I could post my M240 results later, but it will be way better than that

Conclusion:
My shimming job is still not perfect but better than last time. All my lens still hit infinity correctly. the decenter is less this time but still there. Interesting thing is 90APO almost insensitive to this slightly de-centering, similar to 15mm VC I had. 35 and 21 are still show much stronger
...Show more

Amazing work Michael You are correct the my 21 SEM with the M240 is not at infinity but @f/3.4 at close to medium/focus plane. The 21 SEM is a superb lens but for landscapes I always stopped the lens stopped the lens down to f/5.6. What impresses is that with your testing so far there is no smearing in the corners.

I have similarly found that adapters can be very problematic to a point where I sent 2 adapters away to be re machined to spec. It did make quite a difference and not second guessing.

With respect to the fine tune AF adjustment it is an excellent feature to have if you wish to finely adjust the DOF to suit. In some situations like with the 58G you make wish to back the focus marginally so the eyes are more in focus. It is a feature that is there that many may not use




Oct 28, 2018 at 04:43 PM
rico
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p.15 #16 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


Wow, SEM and Elmar 24 look excellent! I'm guardedly optimistic that the Elmarit-M 28 ASPH can perform on the Z—it's a wholesale disaster on the A7ii.


Oct 28, 2018 at 06:15 PM
AndereObjektiv
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p.15 #17 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


Just some quick impressions after 3 days of z7 ownership. Very similar to a9 in handling, of course buttons are in different places, but overall z7 is completely competent. An excellent tool.

I'm not too picky about menu design, features I'll never know about let alone use, or other niggles.

I've been hoping that the same sensor team geniuses at Nikon who did the D810 and the D5 did a similar job with the Z7 and they did. It's a sublime sensor with luscious deep deep details into the shadow regions of images where other sensors just show splotchy black and odd color harmonics as noise. The D810 had this character and it's retained in the Z7 and then some, with much better signal to noise at ISO 64.

The Nikon sensor draws the fine strokes of detail like Rembrandt, colors; Vermeer, the shadows of Terbrugghen - a master in it's own rights. It's a new benchmark. A thing of beauty.

Looking forward to the Leica M and R glass after the adapters arrive.

In the meantime here's a Madison Avenue stroll from the other night. All shot at 85mm f/1.4 shakey hands and missed manual focus all my fault




https://i.imgur.com/WYu2ZbS.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/TmRbH7E.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3qO2fdU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/G9mJJX3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xICvC8s.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/wpWQ6d6.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zrJ57S5.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hr7Brsd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kFFuzX6.jpg



Oct 28, 2018 at 07:03 PM
zhangyue
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p.15 #18 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


charles.K wrote:
The VC 35/1.7 has always been in my sights! Wonderful shots

Amazing work Michael You are correct the my 21 SEM with the M240 is not at infinity but @f/3.4 at close to medium/focus plane. The 21 SEM is a superb lens but for landscapes I always stopped the lens stopped the lens down to f/5.6. What impresses is that with your testing so far there is no smearing in the corners.

I have similarly found that adapters can be very problematic to a point where I sent 2 adapters away to be re machined to spec. It did make
...Show more

Hi, Charles, Thanks for kind comments as always. For 21mm landscape shooting, I seldom use aperture wider than f8, not because it is not capable, it does even WO but for most cases if not all, having enough DOF cover either foreground or background is required in most images.

Yes, purposely fine tune focus to suit your case is possible. There are many wish Nikon can implement some handy feature like eye AF that might cover this work around you described. I feel slightly adjust your body after focus is even more intuitive that everything is under your control.
---------------------------------------------

AndereObjektiv wrote:

I'm not too picky about menu design, features I'll never know about let alone use, or other niggles.



Congratulation! Glad there is more users come definitely share your images, experience and joy.

I don't picky about menu either, as long as I can access items I often used quickly. It will be a disaster you try to find how to use or find certain feature when sun is almost up or down I also personally hate small button all around that require your memory. There will be always features you don't use much during daily shooting such exposure delay, exposure Bracket, multiple exposure, focus bracket etc.. but you want make sure you know where to get those once in need. Too many customer function around body make you forget more easily and it is hard to not miss those under pressure. I personally feel Leica did best job here. Nikon did reasonable good job as well given they need cover so many more features in their body.

18mm milvus, handhold shooting with 5X4 mode and slightly cropped.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1967/45552950762_f0f197154a_h.jpg



Oct 28, 2018 at 08:06 PM
freaklikeme
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p.15 #19 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


Question for you Z7 owners who also have experience with Sony- do find the sensor dust issue better/worse/the same versus the Sony?


Oct 29, 2018 at 12:51 AM
suteetat
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p.15 #20 · Alt forum Nikon Z resource, discussion and image thread


rico wrote:
Wow, SEM and Elmar 24 look excellent! I'm guardedly optimistic that the Elmarit-M 28 ASPH can perform on the Z—it's a wholesale disaster on the A7ii.


Here is the 28/2.8 ASPH. Not great corner. Certainly not up to 24/3.8 standard but definitely looks quite a bit better than Sony but I don't really know how the corner supposed to look like with M body though.

Similar setting to my test for 24/3.8. Left is center and right is left upper corner of the frame. This time,
I take 800x800 pixel crop right in the corner of the frame. All are take at F8. Center shot is actually a little off center as I want to focus on the trees that are roughly on the same plane as the corner.
Top 2 pictures are 28/2.8 ASPH and I throw in Zeiss 35/1.4 zm at the bottom. The Zeiss actually
works pretty well with Sony as well so I did not expect much problem with Z7.

test 28 35 by Suteetat S, on Flickr






Oct 29, 2018 at 05:06 AM
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