p.12 #2 · Pre-order: Voigtlander 110/2.5 Macro APO for $1,099
Back when I had money for Leica lenses I couldn't justify this over the 75mm APO summicron which I feel surpasses the 85/2ZM in every quantifiable way.
Fred Miranda wrote:
From the images I have seen, LoCA was a bit high for its price tag.
p.12 #4 · Pre-order: Voigtlander 110/2.5 Macro APO for $1,099
sebbe wrote:
+ 10/5.6 + 12/5.6 (one of my favorites)
and for any speculation: I first want to see how the 21 and 110 performs before I think of others. Of course it's nice to have options. But at least my 40 has a lot of asymetrical vignetting and colorshifts to the corners. nothing I can fix but it reminds me that it is a character lens which is not nearly as perfect as the loxia 21. Therefore I'm really sceptical here if the 21/3.5 can conquer in terms of a landscape lens. Then on the other hand the 65 performs great but I don't get in touch with it (and I don't know why). So the 110 need to proof it's quality and also character first. Beside I already have a great macro (Sonys 90/2.8 G) in my stable....Show more →
The 40 though is a remarkably compact f1.2 lens which, as far as I know, could not be corrected any better at the size it is. It's very much a masterful set of trade-offs that we couldn't possibly expect not to have oddities.
The 21, on the other hand, is f3.5, and it may well be possible to get Loxia performance in a smaller size by giving up that half stop. So I'd be more optimistic than I would have been with the 40 (in fact the 40 exceeded my, somewhat low, expectations handily)
Mar 03, 2018 at 07:43 PM
imagesfromobjects Offline • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.12 #5 · Pre-order: Voigtlander 110/2.5 Macro APO for $1,099
I'd love to see some samples from the 21mm.
I was seriously a hair's breadth from grabbing an VM 21/4 last week and now I'm glad I didn't. I'm well aware of the likelihood of magenta corners, but I was going to gamble and see if this was something I could deal with in PP, or simply live with. I got a VM Ultron 28/2 to compliment the 40/1.2 and it's OUTSTANDING, so the next step (I generally shoot normal to wide FLs) was the 25/4 or 21/4, but 25 seemed a bit too close to 28 to justify another few hundred spent.
I may have to break my moratorium on pre-ordering anything for this one. Can't WAIT.
p.12 #6 · Pre-order: Voigtlander 110/2.5 Macro APO for $1,099
DavidBM wrote:
The 40 though is a remarkably compact f1.2 lens which, as far as I know, could not be corrected any better at the size it is. It's very much a masterful set of trade-offs that we couldn't possibly expect not to have oddities.
The 21, on the other hand, is f3.5, and it may well be possible to get Loxia performance in a smaller size by giving up that half stop. So I'd be more optimistic than I would have been with the 40 (in fact the 40 exceeded my, somewhat low, expectations handily)
I agree. The 21mm is compact but also pretty slow. We could only hope for high IQ wide open with f/5.6 as its optimum aperture... so yes, a landscape lens candidate.
p.12 #7 · Pre-order: Voigtlander 110/2.5 Macro APO for $1,099
Well it could fit between my 15/25 if the price is right. Be a corner pocket lens
Mar 03, 2018 at 10:01 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.12 #8 · Pre-order: Voigtlander 110/2.5 Macro APO for $1,099
DavidBM wrote:
The 40 though is a remarkably compact f1.2 lens which, as far as I know, could not be corrected any better at the size it is. It's very much a masterful set of trade-offs that we couldn't possibly expect not to have oddities.
The 21, on the other hand, is f3.5, and it may well be possible to get Loxia performance in a smaller size by giving up that half stop. So I'd be more optimistic than I would have been with the 40 (in fact the 40 exceeded my, somewhat low, expectations handily)
That all makes sense, but historically the Skopars have not been Voigtlander's highest IQ lenses. I hope it is great too, but the 40 was a Nokton which was certainly meant to be a designation of not only a fast but high quality lens. The 65 is an APO-Lanthar a designation Voigtlander typically reserves for their highest performing lenses. So, just by the designations I would expect the 110 to be excellent and the 21 to be small and decent but not to compete with the Loxia. We will see of course and hopefully we are pleasantly surprised. So far, I think, the lenses have followed what one would expect from the designations Cosina has given them.
p.12 #11 · Pre-order: Voigtlander 110/2.5 Macro APO for $1,099
Steve Spencer wrote:
That all makes sense, but historically the Skopars have not been Voigtlander's highest IQ lenses. I hope it is great too, but the 40 was a Nokton which was certainly meant to be a designation of not only a fast but high quality lens. The 65 is an APO-Lanthar a designation Voigtlander typically reserves for their highest performing lenses. So, just by the designations I would expect the 110 to be excellent and the 21 to be small and decent but not to compete with the Loxia. We will see of course and hopefully we are pleasantly surprised. So far, I think, the lenses have followed what one would expect from the designations Cosina has given them....Show more →
I think all Skopar has meant historically for Voigtlander is wideangle but not fast (if moderately fast Ultron, if super fast Nokton) Colour means colour corrected. Apo Lanthars have always been tele: I don’t think we’ll ever see a wide with that designation. If it’s an old style design for retro cool then ‘classic’
Now I agree CV have not yet wowed us with a great slow wide. But I think that’s nothing to do with design goals or designation. They just haven’t managed it yet. Maybe this time.
Mar 03, 2018 at 10:42 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.12 #12 · Pre-order: Voigtlander 110/2.5 Macro APO for $1,099
DavidBM wrote:
I think all Skopar has meant historically for Voigtlander is wideangle but not fast (if moderately fast Ultron, if super fast Nokton) Colour means colour corrected. Apo Lanthars have always been tele: I don’t think we’ll ever see a wide with that designation. If it’s an old style design for retro cool then ‘classic’
Now I agree CV have not yet wowed us with a great slow wide. But I think that’s nothing to do with design goals or designation. They just haven’t managed it yet. Maybe this time.
Ok, I found this on another forum and haven't looked at the original source they cited, but for what it is worth:
"From the Focal Press Bessa Guide, London 1955:
"The Vaskar is athree-lens air-apaced anastigmat.... The Voigtar......and the Helomar...are of similar constriction to the Vaskar...
The Color-Skopar is a three-component lens with a cemented back element; that is, an unsymmetric anastigmat consisting of four lenses with six glass-to-air surfaces.... The Skopar...is of similar construction...
The Color-Heliar is a three-component anastigmat with cemented front and back elements. It consist in all of five lenses with six glass-to air surfaces.... The Heliar....is of similar construction...
The Apo-Lanthar is a three component lens with cemented front and back elements consisting in all of five lenses with six glass-to-air surfaces..... This most modern lens shows full correction in the three main colours of the spectrum...."
So the Apo-Lanthar is of the Heliar type, Voigtländers Tessar types were named Skopar, and the Vaskar, Voigtar, and Helomar were triplets.
So, it seems that in the fifties at least Skopars were Tessars with 4 elements and 3 groups and Heliar, Color-Heliars, Lanthars, and APO-Lanthars were 5 element 3 group lenses. They didn't talk about Noktons or Ultrons which I don't think there were any yet. Those names seemed to be added later to try to designate moderate speed and very fast speed.
It is clear that Cosina uses these names as they want now. I still think Skopars are small slow lenses that are cheaper (and hence not expected in my view to have the ultimate quality). I think Ultrons are moderately fast and Noktons are quite fast to very fast. I would expect both to be very good quality, but the Nokton to have less than full correction until stopped down a stop or two. I think the new 40 f/1.2 Nokton fits this designation well. It is clear even in the 1950s that the APO Lanthars were the top lenses or so it seems to me from that quote and Cosina seems to be following that tradition even now. Of course Cosina could abuse these labels if they so choose. They can do whatever they want with the names, but I do think the names have told us something (especially that the APO-Lanthars are going to be excellent) and that gives us hope that the new 110 f/2.5 will be excellent, but at the same time, in my view anyway, I think it should give us a bit of pause in hoping too much that the new 21 will be up to the highest standards.
p.12 #13 · Pre-order: Voigtlander 110/2.5 Macro APO for $1,099
Steve Spencer wrote:
Sure they were
Ok, I found this on another forum and haven't looked at the original source they cited, but for what it is worth:
"From the Focal Press Bessa Guide, London 1955:
"The Vaskar is athree-lens air-apaced anastigmat.... The Voigtar......and the Helomar...are of similar constriction to the Vaskar...
The Color-Skopar is a three-component lens with a cemented back element; that is, an unsymmetric anastigmat consisting of four lenses with six glass-to-air surfaces.... The Skopar...is of similar construction...
The Color-Heliar is a three-component anastigmat with cemented front and back elements. It consist in all of five lenses with six glass-to air surfaces.... The Heliar....is of similar construction...
The Apo-Lanthar is a three component lens with cemented front and back elements consisting in all of five lenses with six glass-to-air surfaces..... This most modern lens shows full correction in the three main colours of the spectrum...."
So the Apo-Lanthar is of the Heliar type, Voigtländers Tessar types were named Skopar, and the Vaskar, Voigtar, and Helomar were triplets.
So, it seems that in the fifties at least Skopars were Tessars with 4 elements and 3 groups and Heliar, Color-Heliars, Lanthars, and APO-Lanthars were 5 element 3 group lenses. They didn't talk about Noktons or Ultrons which I don't think there were any yet. Those names seemed to be added later to try to designate moderate speed and very fast speed.
It is clear that Cosina uses these names as they want now. I still think Skopars are small slow lenses that are cheaper (and hence not expected in my view to have the ultimate quality). I think Ultrons are moderately fast and Noktons are quite fast to very fast. I would expect both to be very good quality, but the Nokton to have less than full correction until stopped down a stop or two. I think the new 40 f/1.2 Nokton fits this designation well. It is clear even in the 1950s that the APO Lanthars were the top lenses or so it seems to me from that quote and Cosina seems to be following that tradition even now. Of course Cosina could abuse these labels if they so choose. They can do whatever they want with the names, but I do think the names have told us something (especially that the APO-Lanthars are going to be excellent) and that gives us hope that the new 110 f/2.5 will be excellent, but at the same time, in my view anyway, I think it should give us a bit of pause in hoping too much that the new 21 will be up to the highest standards....Show more →
Sure they were small and slow wides, like I said, which I think was the defining feature then and now (rather than any continuing design similarities ).
Now small and slow has usually, sadly historically (unless you were Leica) often meant budget and less good. So when the market was broader for interchangeable lenses, I think that’s what CV did. But now things are different. Certainly on E mount expectations are higher. Technically less good lenses are either astonishingly fast for theirs size (40) or specifically retro (anything called classic).
I’m not saying I think it’s certain this will be great, but I do think if they decided to make a great small slow they would call it color Skopar, because that’s what their small slow wides have been called recently. The design is promising. It ought be possible to make it great in that form factor and speed.
Only tests will determine whether that was their goal and if they succeeded. I hope so.
p.12 #14 · Pre-order: Voigtlander 110/2.5 Macro APO for $1,099
Don't bother with the 21/4. Unfortunately it just doesn't work that good. I've had one for quite a while and although I loved how small and light it was, performance isn't good. On the A7s it was wasn't awful but on the A7RII I just couldn't use it anymore.
imagesfromobjects wrote:
I'd love to see some samples from the 21mm.
I was seriously a hair's breadth from grabbing an VM 21/4 last week and now I'm glad I didn't. I'm well aware of the likelihood of magenta corners, but I was going to gamble and see if this was something I could deal with in PP, or simply live with. I got a VM Ultron 28/2 to compliment the 40/1.2 and it's OUTSTANDING, so the next step (I generally shoot normal to wide FLs) was the 25/4 or 21/4, but 25 seemed a bit too close to 28 to justify another few hundred spent.
I may have to break my moratorium on pre-ordering anything for this one. Can't WAIT. ...Show more →
p.12 #17 · Pre-order: Voigtlander 110/2.5 Macro APO for $1,099
Fred Miranda wrote:
The 110mm is 800g? I'm still hoping for ~700g.
Aside from a member’s guess, we don’t know that’s the case yet.
I was referring to Juha's assessment when he had it hand in hand with the 65 APO, which weighs 650g. He said, "I could feel quite much difference in weights, so I think 110/2.5 will actually be at least 800g or so"
p.12 #18 · Pre-order: Voigtlander 110/2.5 Macro APO for $1,099
pdmphoto wrote:
I was referring to Juha's assessment when he had it hand in hand with the 65 APO, which weighs 650g. He said, "I could feel quite much difference in weights, so I think 110/2.5 will actually be at least 800g or so"
Yeah, that was my feeling based on the demo sample's weight comparing to 65 APO but of course not sure if the demo sample is final design etc. and it's not a precise measurement at all. Anyway, my 65 APO had the hood and caps on too and the 110 didn't and still the difference definitely felt more significant than 50g. In any case, need to wait for official weight info from Cosina before any real conclusions but personally I expect more weight than 700g based on my demo trial experience.
p.12 #19 · Pre-order: Voigtlander 110/2.5 Macro APO for $1,099
Juha Kannisto wrote:
Yeah, that was my feeling based on the demo sample's weight comparing to 65 APO but of course not sure if the demo sample is final design etc. and it's not a precise measurement at all. Anyway, my 65 APO had the hood and caps on too and the 110 didn't and still the difference definitely felt more significant than 50g. In any case, need to wait for official weight info from Cosina before any real conclusions but personally I expect more weight than 700g based on my demo trial experience.
I hope you are wrong even though I know you are probably not!
p.12 #20 · Pre-order: Voigtlander 110/2.5 Macro APO for $1,099
Fred Miranda wrote:
I hope you are wrong even though I know you are probably not!
I actually hope he is right, and that it means better mechanics than in the old CV 125/2.5, which could have used an improvement to some of the internal parts, plastic, screws that would work lose.
