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Archive 2017 · Question about portraits with M4/3

  
 
millsart
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p.6 #1 · Question about portraits with M4/3


While m4/3 does have its compromises compared to some other systems, I do have to say that every time I pick up a camera with the little handheld jewel of a lens known as the Olympus 75mm f1.8, which cost only $500 (used), I'm reminded of what I love about m4/3 and why I keep a few m4/3 camera's and lens around. 150mm reach, from a tiny little lens, with good speed, amazing across the frame sharpness, and a quite pleasant rendering style.

I could grab my DSLR with 70-200/2.8 and get the same shot essentially, with better DR, lower noise etc, but with a lens that is like 5x the size/weight and far more expensive, and that is there is way I'm just throwing it into the spouses purse (at least without her seriously objecting)

I could of also likely said, I'm not dragging a big DSLR to the beach just for a half hour, I'll just snap some pics with my Iphone (very common in my house over the past few years)

Just can't beat m4/3 for size/weight savings realized in the telephoto area though. Way better than an iPhone, but small enough to actually grab and take with you, giving some unique shots.

Just a beach "portrait" of the pup from a quick trip to the beach for sunset yesterday to illustrate the point







Apr 11, 2017 at 09:31 AM
bobbytan
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p.6 #2 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Did a quick test yesterday with my E-M1.2 and A7RII. I pushed the shadows +100 and boost exposure by 1 stop in Lightroom. I am quite surprised at how the well the Olympus did against the Sony at ISO 200. To my eye, the noise difference is approx 1 stop. I might do another test at say ISO 3200 and 6400, which is the maximum I would go with the E-M1.2.






















Apr 11, 2017 at 11:21 AM
Jman13
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p.6 #3 · Question about portraits with M4/3


To properly test this, though, you need a scene that exceeds one (or both) of the cameras DR, while this scene fits handily inside it.


Apr 11, 2017 at 11:52 AM
mitesh
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p.6 #4 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Jman13 wrote:
To properly test this, though, you need a scene that exceeds one (or both) of the cameras DR, while this scene fits handily inside it.


Jordan,

In addition to that, isn't it necessary to downsample the a7rII file to the same size as the E-M1.2 file before comparing crops?



Apr 11, 2017 at 12:08 PM
bobbytan
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p.6 #5 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Mitesh, since I don't go out much and you have both cameras ... why don't you do the noise test?

mitesh wrote:
Jordan,

In addition to that, isn't it necessary to downsample the a7rII file to the same size as the E-M1.2 file before comparing crops?





Apr 11, 2017 at 12:13 PM
bobbytan
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p.6 #6 · Question about portraits with M4/3


It may be pertinent to note that if I had exposed to the right and then pull back the exposure in LR/PS, I would have substantially reduced or eliminated the noise altogether.


Apr 11, 2017 at 12:18 PM
AmbientMike
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p.6 #7 · Question about portraits with M4/3



MAubrey wrote:
I've been defending μ43 in every comment I've made in this thread, but you should at least know that not everyone is coming to the μ43 forum to run down the system. The thread is also visible in the much larger Alt Gear forum.


I didn't realize it was posted there as well, maybe that is part of the problem?

I read several of the responses, and I was having a hard time seeing anyone buying and using m4/3 after reading this thread. I think even I was even feeling like a chump for using m4/3.

The camera I have used most often over the past 1.5-2 years. And I often have it attached to a supertele or tripod, so weight isn't necessarily a big factor for me.

So I hate to be a fanboy, but I really wasn't seeing another option. I have more respect for fanboys now.

I'd rather be objective, but I don't recall seeing a lot of 7DII vs 5D4 or D500 vs Nikon ff threads on those forums, which would likely make owners of those excellent crop cameras look bad. If I'm objective, it seems to play in to people looking down on m4/3. One can see excellent photos from crop cameras, if they check out some of the boards here.

Edited on Apr 11, 2017 at 01:57 PM · View previous versions



Apr 11, 2017 at 01:43 PM
mitesh
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p.6 #8 · Question about portraits with M4/3


AmbientMike wrote:
I didn't realize it was posted there as well, maybe that is part of the problem?

I read several of the responses, and I was having a hard time seeing anyone buying and using m4/3 after reading this thread. I think even I was even feeling like a chump for using m4/3.

The camera I have used most often over the past 1.5-2 years. And I often have it attached to a supertele or tripod, so weight isn't necessarily a big factor for me.

So I hate to be a fanboy, but I really wasn't seeing another option. I have more
...Show more

You must have missed the threads you mentioned above, because I can tell you we definitely did such testing on the Canon Forum comparing 7D, 7D2, 80D, etc. with full frame cameras.

I still don't see anyone who is saying you'd have to be a "chump" to shoot m4/3. It has been said quite explicitly in this thread that good photos can be made from any current system, and people should use whatever they are comfortable using.




Apr 11, 2017 at 01:54 PM
mitesh
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p.6 #9 · Question about portraits with M4/3


bobbytan wrote:
Mitesh, since I don't go out much and you have both cameras ... why don't you do the noise test?



Yes sir, Mr. Tan! Your wish is my command . Give me a couple days and I'll do that.



Apr 11, 2017 at 01:56 PM
bobbytan
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p.6 #10 · Question about portraits with M4/3


The 7D II is an old camera/sensor and the E-M1.2 sensor is quite a bit better if you believe the DXO rankings:

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Olympus/OM-D-E-M1-Mark-II

AmbientMike wrote:
I didn't realize it was posted there as well, maybe that is part of the problem?

I read several of the responses, and I was having a hard time seeing anyone buying and using m4/3 after reading this thread. I think even I was even feeling like a chump for using m4/3.

The camera I have used most often over the past 1.5-2 years. And I often have it attached to a supertele or tripod, so weight isn't necessarily a big factor for me.

So I hate to be a fanboy, but I really wasn't seeing another option. I have more
...Show more



Apr 11, 2017 at 02:00 PM
bobbytan
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p.6 #11 · Question about portraits with M4/3


If you spend a lot of time in the FM forum pages you will be terribly influenced by all the gear talk from gear heads. And there is a lot of one-upmanship going on. People love to trumpet or brag about their equipment and their knowledge about gear. These guys may have the best equipment that money can buy, but they are not necessarily good photographers. Professional photographers and those who shoot for NatGeo are not gear heads, but they are great photographers. So don't get too hung up about m43 vs APS-C vs FF debate. All of these systems/formats are capable of delivering much more than our skills level as photographers.


Apr 11, 2017 at 02:15 PM
mitesh
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p.6 #12 · Question about portraits with M4/3


bobbytan wrote:
If you spend a lot of time in the FM forum pages you will be terribly influenced by all the gear talk from gear heads. And there is a lot of one-upmanship going on. People love to trumpet or brag about their equipment and their knowledge about gear. These guys may have the best equipment that money can buy, but they are not necessarily good photographers. Professional photographers and those who shoot for NatGeo are not gear heads, but they are great photographers. So don't get too hung up about m43 vs APS-C vs FF debate. All of these systems/formats
...Show more

That about says it all.



Apr 11, 2017 at 02:23 PM
savingspaces
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p.6 #13 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Makten wrote:
Oh yes, very funny. I think most people here can see that you are the narcissist.

https://flic.kr/p/Sr3w7U

Nice composition, processing and general thought, bruh. Who do you think you are?
Remember, I have never claimed my images are good. You on the other hand, seem to think we are on the same low level. Sorry. We're not.

--------

Edit: And to everybody else; I apologize for derailing the thread, but this guy is just too much. I'll ignore him from now on, I promise.


Out of respect to the OP, since he asked, I was not going to reply anymore, but here you are aren't you?

I do have to say that you seem to be as knowledgeable about personality disorders as you are about what makes a picture great. I made the statement that we are about equally bad at photography. You said you are better. A narcissist would not claim to be equal to another. They claim to be better. That is exactly what you did.

And how am I too much? This is the M4/3 sub forum. What was the reason for your "chime in" with your condescending reply about M4/3? What was helpful about your post? What did it support? Listen, there is nothing wrong with being a gear head and as it has been said above, artistically, it doesn't matter what format you are using. Technically, of course a larger sensor is "better" - we all know that, but using FF gear isn't going to transform your snap shots in to work of art. You yourself can clearly see it in your Flickr feed. It isn't a secret.

Color preference - you like sony colors, while many (including real photographers) don't like sony colors. Who really cares. The issue is the way your posts are written. Like just because you don't like Olympus colors, it doesn't mean that they are indeed worse than sony's. You opinion is just that. An opinion. No more, no less. Everyone has an opinion. But narcissists think that everyone else is wrong and they are right. You fit that profile perfectly. As it has been shown, when you don't know what camera took a particular picture, people can't "tell". Some may guess right but that is about it.
On my picture that you posted a link to - first and foremost, no matter what you or anyone think of that snap, it has a meaning for us. They are snaps, I am the king of snaps and they serve a purpose (for us), just like your snaps. Not one of your photos that I have seen could hold my attention for more than a split second. "and" here we go again, I guess you think that your shots on your photo stream are something special, otherwise why would you go out of your way and find a shot of mine that is clearly a pure snap?

Why haven't you posted a picture to back your claim? Where are those special colors? I have suggested several times, look at ANY of BobbyTan's photos and show me a shot from your camera that has better colors. Conveniently, you continue to ignore THAT. If you make outrages claims, expect somebody to call you on your BS. That doesn't mean that THAT person is "TOO MUCH" - it simply means that you have been caught and you don't like it. Let your pictures do the talking. Unfortunately for you, so far all they can do is mumble.

As I have said many times over the years, I don't have an ounce of creativity in my body unfortunately. But looking at your photographs, I will put my what I would consider "better" shots against yours any time. Any time.

Now just to balance things out, here is another snap shot from me - this one, for some weird reason, Flickr thought was good enough to be on their front page for about 4 or 5 days when it was uploaded initially.

Trillium Lake by Thomas Dekany, on Flickr



Apr 12, 2017 at 03:29 AM
savingspaces
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p.6 #14 · Question about portraits with M4/3


AmbientMike wrote:
What bugs me about this thread, and I don't think this is the only time this has happened on the m4/3 forum, is the way people look down their noses at m4/3.

I do not think you would get away with that on the Canon and Nikon boards.

M4/3 is a crop sensor. If you are not willing to look down your noses at the 7D II on the Canon board, or the d500 on the Nikon board, please do not look down on m4/3 on this board.

I don't want to chill honest discussion, but I don't plan on honestly assessing
...Show more

I get exactly what you are saying. This same BS used to go on on M4/3 dot com by a few people, some of them are posting here on FM as well. Thank god, the moderators got rid of the few and put leashes on a few more, so at least for now, you don't have feel bad about liking M4/3. Yes we know, a larger sensor has less noise, thinner DOF blah blah blah. In my experience, every one who looked down on M4/3 on these forums have been snap shot shooters. They couldn't take a great shot, if their life depended on it. But what can you do. On the other hand, you shouldn't have to feel ashamed for using M4/3. The original post was about lack of POP compared to larger sensors. The OP never posted examples, which is typical. Now it is the lack of DR and noise. The DR is an easy fix by bracketing. The noise, not so much, so if someone's work of art that never makes it to prints or are not for sale, needs less noisy images, as you suggested, get a camera with larger sensor in it. But if you think about it, if you use a F0.95 lens on M4/3 against a F1.4 lens on a FF camera, what will the "shallower" DOF do for a shot that is crap?

You will see beautiful work of art taken with FF cameras, while at the same time you can run into pure trash taken with M4/3. On the other hand, you can easily find beautiful work of art taken with M4/3 gear while at the same time, you can find pure trash taken with FF gear. It always comes down to the chimp behind the camera.

It seems, that to "some" gear heads this is a hard concept to accept.



Apr 12, 2017 at 03:59 AM
Makten
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p.6 #15 · Question about portraits with M4/3


bobbytan wrote:
Did a quick test yesterday with my E-M1.2 and A7RII. I pushed the shadows +100 and boost exposure by 1 stop in Lightroom. I am quite surprised at how the well the Olympus did against the Sony at ISO 200. To my eye, the noise difference is approx 1 stop. I might do another test at say ISO 3200 and 6400, which is the maximum I would go with the E-M1.2.


That test show exactly was I was talking about, regarding colors. Sure, noise is no problem.

Or, isn't it? The MFT image shows very dull colors (compare the crops), that I believe is because of weaker CFA (more RGB wavelength overlap). Which is necessary to get such low noise from a sensor so much smaller. I'd prefer higher noise and better colors.


Jman13 wrote:
To properly test this, though, you need a scene that exceeds one (or both) of the cameras DR, while this scene fits handily inside it.


I disagree. That color difference is very much what I saw even in daylight photos. Of course not as exaggerated, but it was still there.

And no, unfortunately I don't have any A/B comparisons to prove it.

Edit: And I really hope that you all don't see this as "bashing MFT". It's not. I loved the system, but we all have to choose what's more important for our needs and wants.



Apr 12, 2017 at 02:54 PM
formula4speed
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p.6 #16 · Question about portraits with M4/3


I'm not sure I've ever seen a camera exhibit high noise and good color at the same time.

I do think I see the same thing you do though, I find colors more muted at the more extreme range of ISOs with the m4/3 cameras. At low ISO I don't really find it to be an issue personally, I might not be looking close enough.

The fancy high-res mode could help offset this in the future. If we can take the high-res photos handheld (a goal they announced they are working on), we could potentially down sample those images to get cleaner files with truer colors.

For now I'll keep shooting both systems, but my FF gear is sitting home more and more since I got the new E-M1.



Apr 12, 2017 at 03:20 PM
Makten
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p.6 #17 · Question about portraits with M4/3


formula4speed wrote:
I'm not sure I've ever seen a camera exhibit high noise and good color at the same time.


Hah! Perhaps not, but what I meant was that cameras that give very low noise, often give "less true" colors even at low ISO:s. At (very) high ISO:s, the noisier sensor won't cope color-wise anyway because of.....noise.

And because of that I prefer D700 colors over a7 colors. And M8 colors over sort of anything. Isn't that funny?


For now I'll keep shooting both systems, but my FF gear is sitting home more and more since I got the new E-M1.


And my a7 is sitting home while I use the RX100 III, for the same reasons.



Apr 12, 2017 at 03:28 PM
formula4speed
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p.6 #18 · Question about portraits with M4/3


I assume there has to be some kind of compromise to continually improve on the extreme high ISOs we have available today, but it's certainly something I can live with considering how capable cameras are these days.

I do remember really liking the colors out of the original 1D with the 4mp CCD sensor. Not sure at this point if they are really any better or just nostalgia



Apr 12, 2017 at 04:06 PM
bobbytan
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p.6 #19 · Question about portraits with M4/3


That's a terrible example to pick on. The lighting was from a low-watt single tungsten bulb, as I was trying to shoot in very low light situation to check on the shadow recovery. Both images look awful to me, color-wise. I wouldn't say that the Sony color is better than the Olympus color based on this sample image.

My personal experience is that the AWB is significantly better with the Olympus than with the Sony. The AWB on the Sony is all over the place - it's never nice or consistent.

Makten wrote:
That test show exactly was I was talking about, regarding colors. Sure, noise is no problem.

Or, isn't it? The MFT image shows very dull colors (compare the crops), that I believe is because of weaker CFA (more RGB wavelength overlap). Which is necessary to get such low noise from a sensor so much smaller. I'd prefer higher noise and better colors.


I disagree. That color difference is very much what I saw even in daylight photos. Of course not as exaggerated, but it was still there.

And no, unfortunately I don't have any A/B comparisons to prove it.

Edit: And
...Show more



Apr 12, 2017 at 04:14 PM
mortyb
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p.6 #20 · Question about portraits with M4/3


If I'm not mistaken, DxO Mark measures CFA quality / RGB "pureness" with the "Sensitivity metamerism index", where higher number means a better CFA filtration.

Some SMI scores:

Sony A7rII: 85
Sony A7: 82
Sony RX100 iii: 83
E-M10 mark II: 82
E-M1 mark II: 81
Nikon D700: 83
Nikon D810: 80
Leica M8: 68

Both Olys score higher than the D810. Not so sure CFA can explain differences in color between FF and M4/3.



Apr 12, 2017 at 05:27 PM
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