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Archive 2017 · Question about portraits with M4/3

  
 
AmbientMike
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p.5 #1 · Question about portraits with M4/3


What bugs me about this thread, and I don't think this is the only time this has happened on the m4/3 forum, is the way people look down their noses at m4/3.

I do not think you would get away with that on the Canon and Nikon boards.

M4/3 is a crop sensor. If you are not willing to look down your noses at the 7D II on the Canon board, or the d500 on the Nikon board, please do not look down on m4/3 on this board.

I don't want to chill honest discussion, but I don't plan on honestly assessing m4/3 to the same degree anymore, because it plays into this behavior. If you need a ff sensor, get one.

OP: your question either has us 1) calling you crazy, or 2) saying our gear is inferior.

That ticks me off.

I like m4/3. It is professionally capable gear. The least you can do is post a few photos to show us what you are seeing.

I shot probably the best photo I have ever taken of my nephew using an old GH1 last summer.



Apr 10, 2017 at 02:06 PM
Makten
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p.5 #2 · Question about portraits with M4/3


savingspaces wrote:
While we agree on "ME" needing more practice, but that YOU would tell someone that is extremely funny. Do you really believe that your snap shots are any good?


Oh yes, very funny. I think most people here can see that you are the narcissist.

https://flic.kr/p/Sr3w7U

Nice composition, processing and general thought, bruh. Who do you think you are?
Remember, I have never claimed my images are good. You on the other hand, seem to think we are on the same low level. Sorry. We're not.

--------

Edit: And to everybody else; I apologize for derailing the thread, but this guy is just too much. I'll ignore him from now on, I promise.



Apr 10, 2017 at 02:19 PM
Jman13
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p.5 #3 · Question about portraits with M4/3


I don't think anyone is asserting that you can't take amazing images with m4/3 gear. I shoot with Micro 4/3 (though not as much any more), Fuji APS-C and Sony FF, and I have gotten amazing images with each system, and crap images with each system. They all are certainly capable of professional work and beautiful image quality.

That said, the discussion isn't viewing m4/3 as an inferior system, but is noting something in the image quality, and there is a difference in image quality. It's not huge, and it's far less than most people would have you believe, but if you don't think there are image quality differences between m4/3 and something like the A7r II, then you'd be flat out wrong.

Now, does that mean that Sony FF is a 'better' system than m4/3? No. It is going to be better for a lot of people, while Micro 4/3 will be better for a lot of people.

There are shots that you get simply because you have a camera on you, and with m4/3, that's a lot easier to do for casual shooting due to the small size of both bodies and lenses. The IBIS is utterly phenomenal, so if you want to handheld static scenes, m4/3 can enable shooting without a tripod in situations where other systems can't, and the lens selection on m4/3 is outstanding.

That said, there is a slight difference in the tonal rolloff of m4/3 files, and the reason you don't see examples posted is because it's really a hard thing to show in single frame images. There is also a connection with dynamic range, as when things are stressed is where the transitions happen a bit more abruptly with m4/3.
Again, these are not large differences, but they are there.

When the light is right and the exposure requires less pushing and pulling, the results out of a m4/3 image will look every bit as wonderful as an image out of APS-C or FF, especially at web size. This is why you see tons of images from every system with amazing image quality. However, it's the challenging situations where the differences start to show. For instance, I did a portrait shoot on Saturday, and in one setup, I didn't fill the left side of the model's face enough during the shoot. If I had done that with m4/3, I'd be pretty well stuck with that lighting setup, because the amount of shadow pushing I'd have needed would have resulted in a somewhat blotchy mess, or with far too much noise for a studio type portrait. My A7 II file, however, I could push till the cows came home, and the result was a successful image. In some cases it's not that extreme, but it is something you start to notice after processing thousands of files from each of these cameras. It doesn't mean you can't make an amazing image with a smaller sensor, just that the latitude decreases, and in doing what I want with the image, I can do a bit more (and therefore sometimes get closer to my actual vision) with Fuji or FF Sony.

Again, there are things that m4/3 can do that the others can't: like hand hold a 24mm equivalent lens at night and capture a solid exposure of the city with proper depth of field. I've done that with m4/3, and with FF, it requires stopping down too far and raising ISO too high in most cases.

For macro, the ability to have a lightweight, easy to steady rig that can get twice as close for a 1:1 macro image, makes m4/3 my preferred rig for macro shooting. Ditto for long lens work. And, with the excellent portrait glass, it can also be used for great portraiture and great landscape work too.

But, I'll tell you that there's no way my m4/3 cameras would have allowed me to do this shot, without an HDR bracket:
http://www.jordansteele.com/2017/sunrise_driftwood.jpg

That shot would have clipped in the brightest parts, or been unrecoverable in the shadows without major noise on m4/3. There is a LOT of pushing and pulling of this single exposure. BUT...of course, I could have shot an HDR with m4/3 and gotten a similar image.

At the end of the day, it's most important to use what YOU value in a camera system. If that's compact size with an outstanding small lens lineup and tremendous IBIS, then that's the system you should shoot. The image quality differences are there, but they also generally don't make a big difference as to the final image. How you enjoy the camera, and how it works for you is a far bigger concern in my eye...it's why in my reviews I don't discuss image quality until the 4th page...it's just not the most important consideration for me, though it is, of course important.



Apr 10, 2017 at 02:32 PM
mitesh
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p.5 #4 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Jman13 wrote:
I don't think anyone is asserting that you can't take amazing images with m4/3 gear. I shoot with Micro 4/3 (though not as much any more), Fuji APS-C and Sony FF, and I have gotten amazing images with each system, and crap images with each system. They all are certainly capable of professional work and beautiful image quality.

That said, the discussion isn't viewing m4/3 as an inferior system, but is noting something in the image quality, and there is a difference in image quality. It's not huge, and it's far less than most people would have you believe, but
...Show more

Very well summed up, Jordan, and hopefully your balanced, well-written post can be the final word on the topic... at least in this thread . That's a beautiful image, as well.



Apr 10, 2017 at 02:48 PM
Jman13
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p.5 #5 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Thanks. This actually made me think: how much different would this be between m4/3 and FF. So I went searching through my m4/3 images for photos with similar dynamic range, and here's what I came up with, which helps illustrate the point a bit.

First, m4/3. In this case, my E-M10 Mark II. this isn't the absolute best m4/3 sensor (though it's only 2 years old), but neither is the FF sensor I'm going to compare it to, so we should be on fairly equal footing.

This is what the RAW looks like with no processing:
http://www.jordansteele.com/2017/m43-r.jpg

Looks fine. Now, let's bring out those shadows....here's a +100 shadow adjustment in lightroom:
http://www.jordansteele.com/2017/m43-p.jpg

Hmm....you can see a lot of noise...let's see what it looks like up close:
http://www.jordansteele.com/2017/m43-p-crop.jpg

Yuck. There's absolutely nothing usable in there. It's just mush, and the transitions are harsh and it's just not good. Now, a +100 shadow push is pretty significant....but.....

Now, let's take a look at the FF file.

The isn't the same file as the image I posted above, but it was taken a few seconds before.
Here's what it looked like in LR with no adjustments:
http://www.jordansteele.com/2017/ff-r.jpg

And...with a bigger exposure push...+1 stop overall exposure, plus +100 in the shadows (and -100 in the highlights):
http://www.jordansteele.com/2017/ff-p.jpg

And how do those shadows look?
http://www.jordansteele.com/2017/ff-p-crop.jpg

Well, pretty darn clean.





Apr 10, 2017 at 04:19 PM
bobbytan
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p.5 #6 · Question about portraits with M4/3


I don't think this is a fair comparison. The DR of the Olympus image (before sundown) is much higher than the DR of the Sony image (after sundown). So the shadows and under-exposed areas of the Olympus image is much deeper to begin with, so quite naturally when you try to pull the detail out of the deeper shadow areas you will see a lot more noise.

The noise test that Steve Huff did didn't look too bad at all for m43:

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2015/02/23/mirrorless-battle-micro-43-vs-aps-c-vs-full-frame/

Jman13 wrote:
Thanks. This actually made me think: how much different would this be between m4/3 and FF. So I went searching through my m4/3 images for photos with similar dynamic range, and here's what I came up with, which helps illustrate the point a bit.

First, m4/3. In this case, my E-M10 Mark II. this isn't the absolute best m4/3 sensor (though it's only 2 years old), but neither is the FF sensor I'm going to compare it to, so we should be on fairly equal footing.

This is what the RAW looks like with no processing:
http://www.jordansteele.com/2017/m43-r.jpg

Looks fine. Now, let's bring out
...Show more

Edited on Apr 10, 2017 at 06:00 PM · View previous versions



Apr 10, 2017 at 05:55 PM
Jman13
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p.5 #7 · Question about portraits with M4/3


I can try to find a better comparison, but I don't think the blacks are that much deeper. The Sony file has a full stop greater push to get to this level. Ideally, I'd like to shoot the same scene with all three. Perhaps I'll do that at some point.

In any case, it isn't really a big deal most of the time, and there are ways to get around what limitations there are.



Apr 10, 2017 at 05:59 PM
bobbytan
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p.5 #8 · Question about portraits with M4/3


This DXO sensor ratings/scores should give one some idea of the DR and noise performance between the E-M1.2, Canon 7D II and Sony A7R II:

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Olympus-OM-D-E-M1-Mark-II-versus-Sony-A7R-II-versus-Canon-EOS-7D-Mark-II___1136_1035_977



Apr 10, 2017 at 06:10 PM
bobbytan
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p.5 #9 · Question about portraits with M4/3


I will try and do a side-by-side indoor noise test between my E-M1.2 and A7R II.


Apr 10, 2017 at 06:22 PM
mitesh
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p.5 #10 · Question about portraits with M4/3


bobbytan wrote:
I will try and do a side-by-side indoor noise test between my E-M1.2 and A7R II.


IIRC, you should see a two-stop advantage for the a7rII.



Apr 10, 2017 at 06:24 PM
bobbytan
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p.5 #11 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Sync-IS will give you approx 2-stop advantage over the Sony ... so that may level the playing field somewhat.

mitesh wrote:
IIRC, you should see a two-stop advantage for the a7rII.





Apr 10, 2017 at 06:49 PM
AmbientMike
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p.5 #12 · Question about portraits with M4/3


I am thinking extreme shadow recovery is similar, if not the same as, high iso. So this test is similar to 7DII vs 5D4 on the Canon board, which wouldn't be very revealing to me.

M4/3 is an excellent system.



Apr 10, 2017 at 06:52 PM
Jman13
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p.5 #13 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Here's perhaps a closer example. You really do need to do head to head to find out, but in these situations, I very rarely have two cameras with me. Perhaps I should stash my E-M10 II with 12-32 in the side pocket of my A7 II bag for the next time such a situation arises.

GX8 -

Unprocessed
http://www.jordansteele.com/2017/m432-r.jpg

-40 highlights, +100 shadows
http://www.jordansteele.com/2017/m432-p.jpg

100% crop:
http://www.jordansteele.com/2017/m432-p-crop.jpg

A7 II

Unprocessed
http://www.jordansteele.com/2017/ff2-r.jpg

-40 highlights, +100 shadows:
http://www.jordansteele.com/2017/ff2-p.jpg

100% crop:
http://www.jordansteele.com/2017/ff2-p-crop.jpg
In any case, you can see just from the pushed and pulled exposures, that while these obviously need to be processed more carefully, there is far more tonal data in the A7 II shot. Some of that may be due to the color temperature of the light, but overall brightness was fairly similar



Apr 10, 2017 at 07:03 PM
Jman13
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p.5 #14 · Question about portraits with M4/3


AmbientMike wrote:
I am thinking extreme shadow recovery is similar, if not the same as, high iso. So this test is similar to 7DII vs 5D4 on the Canon board, which wouldn't be very revealing to me.

M4/3 is an excellent system.


It can be similar, but it also reveals the greater dynamic range and the fact that smooth tonal transitions are maintained across a wider range of values, which translates to better image quality at the extremes. (and very subtly better image quality at non-extremes, though this is really a minor note.)

And I agree with you that m4/3 is an excellent system. I shot exclusively with it for around 3 years, and I still shoot with it (though not as much) today. Many of my favorite images are with m4/3... But people were looking for examples where image quality difference show. It doesn't show much in day to day shooting in good light where the dynamic range of the sensors isn't exceeded. It doesn't show much if you don't need to push the files hard to get the final image you want. It does start showing when you are molding the files. And whether that difference is important to you will vary a LOT between photographers.

In any case, you can certainly make incredible shots with m4/3. Here are some of my favorite shots I've taken with m4/3 over the past few years:

E-M10 II with Panasonic 100-400:
http://www.jordansteele.com/2016/heron_fish.jpg

EM10 II with Panasonic 100-400:
http://www.jordansteele.com/2016/bald_eagle_head.jpg

EM5 II with Olympus 12-40 f/2.8 Pro:
http://www.jordansteele.com/2015/columbus_water_sunrise.jpg

E-M5 with Canon FD 50-300mm f/4.5L (10 image stitch...this is a 36" print on my wall and it looks amazing)
http://www.jordansteele.com/2014/columbus_eclipse.jpg

E-M5 with Panasonic 25mm f/1.4:
http://www.jordansteele.com/2013/sitting.jpg

E-M5 with Olympus 75-300mm:
http://www.jordansteele.com/2013/bald_eagles_nr.jpg



Apr 10, 2017 at 07:13 PM
AmbientMike
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p.5 #15 · Question about portraits with M4/3




mitesh wrote:
IIRC, you should see a two-stop advantage for the a7rII.


Go over to the Canon forum and tell them that Nikon beats them by 2 stops on DR, and see if it goes well.

I was looking at a website that said something like that, T6 vs. d3400, this week.

I get sick of people basically running down m4/3 on the m4/3 forum. Unfortunately it has reached the point that I feel I have to take m4/3 side, as opposed to having a rational discussion. ?.



Apr 10, 2017 at 07:18 PM
Jman13
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p.5 #16 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Are we not having a rational discussion at the moment? No one is running down m4/3. But to have a rational discussion, you need to acknowledge each system's strengths and weaknesses. FF has an image quality advantage in many situations. Those situations may be unimportant to you, but denying they exist helps no one.

Also, m4/3 has a huge portability advantage, and, especially when compared to Sony, has an autofocus advantage as well (at least with regards to single shot...continuous tracking is a bit closer). My Olympus bodies focus significantly faster and more surely in dim light than my Sony bodies. They're also a touch faster than my Fuji bodies as well, but that's a closer race, and my X-T20 probably has the best continuous AF of the cameras I own.

m4/3 has an outstanding lens range. Fuji and Sony don't have quite the full range covered, but (partly due to larger sensor size) have some capabilities m4/3 doesn't have, though the same could be said the other way as well.

Ultimately, if m4/3 is right for you, then it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Great images can be made with any system.

Edited on Apr 10, 2017 at 07:26 PM · View previous versions



Apr 10, 2017 at 07:22 PM
mitesh
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p.5 #17 · Question about portraits with M4/3


AmbientMike wrote:
Go over to the Canon forum and tell them that Nikon beats them by 2 stops on DR, and see if it goes well.

I was looking at a website that said something like that, T6 vs. d3400, this week.

I get sick of people basically running down m4/3 on the m4/3 forum. Unfortunately it has reached the point that I feel I have to take m4/3 side, as opposed to having a rational discussion. ?.


Relax, man. Before you jump on someone, do some homework. Like check my profile to see what gear I own. I shot Canon for over 10 years and have shot Nikon, Sony, and now Olympus. I am nobody's fanboy or cheerleader, and what I wrote wasn't derogatory towards m4/3. It was based on my conclusions from my own testing.



Apr 10, 2017 at 07:23 PM
pinholecam
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p.5 #18 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Jman13 wrote:
I don't think anyone is asserting that you can't take amazing images with m4/3 gear. I shoot with Micro 4/3 (though not as much any more), Fuji APS-C and Sony FF, and I have gotten amazing images with each system, and crap images with each system. They all are certainly capable of professional work and beautiful image quality.

................
...........................
....................................

At the end of the day, it's most important to use what YOU value in a camera system. If that's compact size with an outstanding small lens lineup and tremendous IBIS, then that's the system you should shoot. The image quality differences
...Show more

Excellent write up and examples.
I'm certainly glad your many examples here have put the thread back on the right track.



Apr 10, 2017 at 07:36 PM
bobbytan
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p.5 #19 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Yup. The bald eagle head shot is astonishingly sharp (the kind of images that I thought only Robin Wong can produce!) when you consider that the 400mm end of the PL 100-400 lens is actually quite weak. Jordan may have an exceptional copy! Heck, I doubt if my 300/4 PRO + 1.4x TC can do a better job.

pinholecam wrote:
Excellent write up and examples.
I'm certainly glad your many examples here have put the thread back on the right track.





Apr 10, 2017 at 08:19 PM
MAubrey
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p.5 #20 · Question about portraits with M4/3


AmbientMike wrote:
Go over to the Canon forum and tell them that Nikon beats them by 2 stops on DR, and see if it goes well.

I was looking at a website that said something like that, T6 vs. d3400, this week.

I get sick of people basically running down m4/3 on the m4/3 forum. Unfortunately it has reached the point that I feel I have to take m4/3 side, as opposed to having a rational discussion. ?.

I've been defending μ43 in every comment I've made in this thread, but you should at least know that not everyone is coming to the μ43 forum to run down the system. The thread is also visible in the much larger Alt Gear forum.



Apr 10, 2017 at 09:28 PM
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