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Archive 2017 · Leica 'M10"

  
 
Alpha_Geist
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p.19 #1 · Leica 'M10"


sirimiri wrote:
A day later, I'm still thinking about the M10.

It seems that good.


It's been on the back of my mind this whole week. . Stock hasn't arrived yet. Don't know when it will, but hopefully soon!



Jan 28, 2017 at 11:11 AM
zhangyue
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p.19 #2 · Leica 'M10"


Impatiently waiting here as well.


Jan 28, 2017 at 11:32 AM
snappu
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p.19 #3 · Leica 'M10"


Just get it, it's the only M you'll ever need. Love.mine.


Jan 28, 2017 at 12:24 PM
CVickery
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p.19 #4 · Leica 'M10"


sirimiri wrote:
I also used the 35mm Q, and TL.

The Q weighs next to nothing and is very responsive. A really nifty little camera. Interesting macro mode.

The TL is fast and accurate. It's overweight I think, and the concept of a hewn metallic block sounds nice but the grip and bulk could use some work. The lenses are farcically large. I'd like some of the controls to be a tad larger or have more grip/friction for the hands.

I have never seen such a bright, easy-to-use electronic viewfinder before. I could well and truly see it almost supplanting an optical finder for
...Show more

You lost me there for a bit until I realized that you were referring to the SL not the TL



Jan 28, 2017 at 03:30 PM
adamdewilde
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p.19 #5 · Leica 'M10"


My dealer tried to push one on me... I passed. Not because I'm still annoyed with Leica, BUT because I actually enjoy using the M-D. I don't really need much else from a digital M. I know you can block the screen on the M10 since it has a iso dial, though it's not the same. To be honest, also in 3 months I'll be able to get it for far less than what it costs now.

About the M-D.. The thought of not looking at your screen vs not having a screen are two different things. It makes my M-D feel/seem future proof. I get wide angle users these days couldn't get a long without EVF, and I get tele users might have issues too.. But the only lens I have is the 50APO, so it really doesn't bother me. If the 50APO didn't look so good on the M240 sensor, I'd sell off the whole of the M system. So that's another reason why I'm not willing to take a risk on the M10 sensor. I don't want to buy a X thousand dollar camera to be disappointed in the colour rendering.

I still have the SL for days when I want an EVF (still don't like the SL sensor).. And I bought another Q (this is my 3rd Q) for days when I don't feel like carrying a heavy camera around.. The lens built into the Q makes up for the sensor colours. Also the thing is so light, it's more convenient than pulling my iPhone out of my pocket (to be fair I wear really tight jeans). That and I'm doing an experiment seeing how often my wife uses the Q over her iPhone for flat lays and instagram style things.


Maybe when the M10-P hits the market and the price drops, I'll look out to see if the sensor colours are appealing to me. For now, I'm going to get on with the Leica gear I have, until I either sell it all off, or it breaks :P



Jan 28, 2017 at 10:48 PM
Jack Thompson
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p.19 #6 · Leica 'M10"


Man, this place is starting to sound like Liecaholics Anonymous. "My dealer tried to push one on me..." Classic.


Jan 28, 2017 at 11:36 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.19 #7 · Leica 'M10"


Chill out Jack.


Jan 29, 2017 at 12:08 AM
flash
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p.19 #8 · Leica 'M10"


Jack Thompson wrote:
Man, this place is starting to sound like Liecaholics Anonymous. "My dealer tried to push one on me..." Classic.


Most of us are proud and happy members of LA......

Most of us never get our 30 day badge.......

Gordon



Jan 29, 2017 at 01:14 AM
flash
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p.19 #9 · Leica 'M10"


adamdewilde wrote:
My dealer tried to push one on me... I passed. Not because I'm still annoyed with Leica, BUT because I actually enjoy using the M-D. I don't really need much else from a digital M. I know you can block the screen on the M10 since it has a iso dial, though it's not the same. To be honest, also in 3 months I'll be able to get it for far less than what it costs now.

About the M-D.. The thought of not looking at your screen vs not having a screen are two different things. It makes my
...Show more

What profiles are you using Adam? Have you tried the Huelight LR profiles. Might help you with the colour rendition issues.

Gordon



Jan 29, 2017 at 01:16 AM
davewolfs
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p.19 #10 · Leica 'M10"


I was under the impression that you liked Leica colors. Perhaps it was the medium format S that you like. I still don't get how this issue can't be solved without a calibrated monitor and profiles.


Jan 29, 2017 at 10:46 AM
adamdewilde
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p.19 #11 · Leica 'M10"


Gordon - I have not tried that.. I have my own calibration software/hardware. I've worked with the SL and still cannot get the colours right. I also don't like the images above iso 800, I think that's what bothers me most about the sensor.

With the M240 I have to do very little to get the colours right and don't mind the higher ISO images.

Dave - The S-006 was the best sensor I've ever used. The way it could hold the highlight colours was unbelievable. I could shoot bright portraits and the skin would look phenomenal. The luminosity the colours had was unmatched. I sold it off for other reasons (mostly reliability issues). Had the S-system been more solid all around (didn't break, lenses didn't need servicing), the S-006 a bit faster (focus and usage speed) and the ISO was clean up to 3200 I wouldn't have sold it for anything.
(BTW, I also like the M240 sensor/colours.)

All my Leica gear is up for sale.. Or was, I have very little left. Two bodies, three lenses, a few flashes and some other random accessories. If they sell, they sell.. If not, I'll keep and use them. Especially the M-D + 50APO combo!

Back on topic though. If the 50APO doesn't sell in the next few months, and I like what I see from the M10, I'll pick one up. But for now I'm not hopeful, and I'm not going to go out and test one either.. Well not until the price comes down. So for now, I'll just have to lurk on the forum waiting to see what you all think.



Jan 29, 2017 at 11:43 AM
sirimiri
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p.19 #12 · Leica 'M10"


CVickery wrote:
You lost me there for a bit until I realized that you were referring to the SL not the TL


Yes! Thank you for pointing that out, I edited the post. I consider myself somewhat keen on Leica, and look, I can't even keep their models straight. Kind of like Acura...




Jan 29, 2017 at 11:52 AM
uhoh7
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p.19 #13 · Leica 'M10"


adamdewilde wrote:
Gordon - I have not tried that.. I have my own calibration software/hardware. I've worked with the SL and still cannot get the colours right. I also don't like the images above iso 800, I think that's what bothers me most about the sensor.

With the M240 I have to do very little to get the colours right and don't mind the higher ISO images.

Dave - The S-006 was the best sensor I've ever used. The way it could hold the highlight colours was unbelievable. I could shoot bright portraits and the skin would look phenomenal. The luminosity the
...Show more

Hi Adam,
Forgive me, I missed it, once you sell all the Leica stuff where are you going?




Jan 29, 2017 at 06:00 PM
davewolfs
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p.19 #14 · Leica 'M10"


I'd like to know this too


Jan 29, 2017 at 08:35 PM
j.liam
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p.19 #15 · Leica 'M10"


adamdewilde wrote:
All my Leica gear is up for sale.. Or was, I have very little left. Two bodies, three lenses, a few flashes and some other random accessories. If they sell, they sell.. If not, I'll keep and use them. Especially the M-D + 50APO combo!

Back on topic though. If the 50APO doesn't sell in the next few months, and I like what I see from the M10, I'll pick one up. But for now I'm not hopeful, and I'm not going to go out and test one either.. Well not until the price comes down. So for now, I'll just
...Show more

Yikes!
Off to MF? Heard more than a few voices tilting toward the Hasselblad or Fuji. At the pricepoint of the M, without some revolutionary sensor or kick-ass EVF (this Visoflex, though head and shoulders above the original, is not revolutionary), the appeal beyond 'bling' begins to fade.



Jan 29, 2017 at 09:10 PM
uhoh7
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p.19 #16 · Leica 'M10"


j.liam wrote:
Yikes!
Off to MF? Heard more than a few voices tilting toward the Hasselblad or Fuji. At the pricepoint of the M, without some revolutionary sensor or kick-ass EVF (this Visoflex, though head and shoulders above the original, is not revolutionary), the appeal beyond 'bling' begins to fade.


So different, hard to compare. I'm not tossing a fuji or hassie on my motorbike, or in my daypack, and I doubt Allen will march around NY with one

A tiny TV is a tiny TV. If you are used to a Leica OVF, you will use it only as second resort. If you enjoy the 1930 to 2017 range of RF glass you won't be pining for a GFX. Not that I would not enjoy one to play with Hassie and Fuji are no threat to Leica. The reverse though may be true, once prospective buyers handle the M10. But the MF certainly has it's applications, and now they are the size of a DSLR. So that is sweet. But I never had a DSLR either

Some people like to mix up their systems, look at the guys like Charles K who have moved to the XT-2 and love it. I enjoy hearing about the choices, love seeing the results, but I cannot even get on with the RX1rii, and I made a serious effort! For me it's the glass, and not just a few modern ones. The body I want very simple and very tough and very true to my 28 cron et al

Leica/Sony Mod is pretty good for that. I like the plain A7 more now I see how much smaller it is than ii I will be seduced by the possibilities of the newest Mods on rii pretty soon--but only as a vehicle for my primary focus: great and interesting 35mm lenses. I know there are some great MF lenses too, but that's outside my financial DOF

Nikkor Sonnar by unoh7, They Love each other


Pretension by unoh7, Not so much


Dressed Up by unoh7,They go out at night all the time


Big, Long and Fast by unoh7, The Sony has it's specialties

I prefer no Leica lens to that monster or the old 85/2 on the M9 in the first shot. Arguably the two most important Nikkor designs for the survival of the company. The 85 got Nikon into LIFE, and the 300 saved Nikon from Canon with professionals. Shooting them I can see why



Jan 29, 2017 at 10:36 PM
adamdewilde
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p.19 #17 · Leica 'M10"


uhoh7 wrote:
Hi Adam,
Forgive me, I missed it, once you sell all the Leica stuff where are you going?



Off Topic Warning.. You can skip to the bottom where I wrote a conclusion. Or not read this at all, since it's boring ramblings.

Well.. I thought I could jump ship to Fuji with their X-T2. I used it for a few jobs and couldn't get over the crop factor. So I am in the process of selling the whole kit (two bodies, six primes, two zooms).. Most items are sold already. Great system, great lenses.. Really great stuff. Nothing bad to say, just don't like crop factors (even mini-medium format bothers me a bit, more on this below).

So I made the mistake of impulse buying the 35ZA FE, 50ZA FE, 85GM and I'm a bit tossed as to what to do with the lenses as I still dislike Sony's body ergonomics. So far I have the A7rII and A7sII but I'm not happy with either body for different reasons.

AGAIN please note I still dislike Sony but..
The A7sII has a surprisingly good sensor. I like the colours oddly enough I didn't think I'd say that about a Sony cam (I still don't like something about this sensor and other Sony sensors, but I can't explain it in big boy words). But what I don't like is the lack of eye-detect AF and the CDAF only. It really shows vs the A7rII. In fact I'd hazard to say that the A7sII focusing is lagging behind other cameras I've used lately. Also face detect will almost never hit the eyes w/fast lenses. Yes, I know one should just use one point AF, or focusing and recomposing the centre point, but the way you switch the focusing points on the A7 series bodies is an ergonomic nightmare. Better to keep it at face detect with back button one point focusing. And just work around the terrible AF the best you can.

With the A7rII I'm completely happy with the AF performance all the way down till low light. The problem with it is I don't like the colours, and I have no need for 42mp files (that's where medium format steps in). And eye detect is so good it just works constantly, I don't even have to check focus when shooting portraits, something so reassuring about eye AF and the A7rII.

What I would have loved to have seen is a A7sII sensor w/CDAF and PDAF (eye detect) in a body with similar economics to the SL. Or at the very least with a little multiway knob dedicated to focus point changing.

Now with all this said I have two points.
1) Even if I sell the A7r/s II bodies I won't sell the FE lenses until I see what new body style Sony brings to market.
2) If Sony doesn't make a good enough body, I'd consider using two A7sII bodies 90% of the time and pull out the one A7rII only when I really need eye detect for portrait work that is a little more fast paced.

(FOR NOW I have a 2x 5D4 and L-primes for work, but I'm less than thrilled with the setup, it's a stop gap kit to pay the bills until I can sort out my life. And I will be selling ASAP. The Nikon kit is all gone btw.)

With that settled, move onto medium format. This also addresses j.liam's question.
I tried the X1D in the shop a few times. Then I tested one for around 3 hours (don't ask how). And I have to say that I'm less than thrilled.. I love the body ergonomics, I love the menu and the ideas that Hassy had.. I just hate how inferior all the tech feels. I hate that the camera isn't market ready, and I doubt it will be anytime soon (with the hardware currently residing in the awesome body design). I didn't even keep images made with the X1D because I'm just overall unhappy with the experience outdoors. However to Hassy's credit I do like their manual focus feel. As I've said before, I don't know why more companies can't get this right. Bottom line with the X1D and the firmware so far, you're loosing a lot to gain compactness and a semi medium format look.
To directly answer j.liam's question about the X1D to the M system. I actually like the forum factor of the X1D and I can see it as the perfect travel cam, much like the M is the perfect travel cam. But with the M you get faster lenses and 30+ unique rendering styles that it would be hard to consider the X1D as a replacement to an M.. And for most people if you like rangefinders you like rangefinders nothing else compares.

Now we have the GFX.. I have not tried one yet. I am excited for it as it could very well be the first time that medium format cameras acted and responded like FF cameras.. For the longest time I was tossed between a true full frame medium format digital camera (and working slow) or a FF camera and working fast. I found that although I loved the look of full frame medium format, I couldn't get over the slow approach to working (I'm not slow on my RF, I just think differently with it). Anyway, the fact that it's a mini-MFD camera bothers me a bit. BUT it's saving grace should be (from what I've seen in videos only) the fact that it works as fast as the X-T1 does, which is a fast camera if you take the X-T2 out of the equation. This is much like how I put up with the mini-MFD aspect of the S-006. Because the S-006 has great lenses, and a great sensor. I was willing to overlook the fact that you lost a lot to gain a little of the medium format look. Here with the fuji, you're loosing much less and still gaining a bit of the medium format look. Really the fuji GFX for all intents and purposes is as fast as most FF mirrorless cameras on the market today (the A7sII isn't a fast AF camera and the A7rII isn't a speed demon when it comes to usage and chimping etc).

I could always go back to full frame medium format. But the cost is to high and the pace is to slow to justify buying into the a proper medium format system again. I do however appreciate the look you get. I'd just rather stick with FF and fuss less as none of my clients demand medium format anymore. The craze is kinda over, now clients just want good results as cheap as possible. And the S-007 kind of killed the S-system for me, that and the poor service in general.

--------Skip to the conclusion----

With all this said.. I'm in no hurry to sell my Q or M-D + 50APO. Since they represent the fun side of photography. And for anything non-work related I can count on the joy I get from these guys. I'm sure the M10 would bring me a similar joy, but I don't see the point in spending the money since I quite like the unique no screen approach of the M-D. Also the M-D feels better in the hand than the M10 does... hahaha go figure. Though again, if any of this stuff sells, I'm not going to replace it with anything else.. I might just do something non-photo related in my spare time for once in 16+ years.

The Canon setup is not a joy, but a necessity for now.

The Sony lens lineup is maturing quickly and a lot better than I expected and if they just get the body design right on the next round I'm set. Even though again I'll stress I still like the M240 sensor better than the Sony sensors (and now I've used them all). I wish the lenses were smaller, but they're good, reasonably priced and focus quickly enough for me to not be bothered by the unexpected weight.

I will let the GFX and the X1D duke it out for a while.. I'll probably pick one up eventually, but I'm in no hurry work wise. So I'm glad to wait it out till 2018 if needed. I'm especially interested in the 110/2 GFX lens.


-----

And the piece of gear I've been avoiding talking about is the 50mm Summilux-SL.. Let's leave that topic alone for a little while. I'm working on something and will make a separate post about it when I can.

I will add that Leica Singapore is really trying to work things out and make things right with me. So as it stands right now, I wouldn't hesitate to buy an M10 from a service/reliability perspective (but that can all change as fast as the weather, as promises made and promises kept are two different things).. I just don't need/want the M10 right now to be completely honest.

Edited on Jan 30, 2017 at 12:47 AM · View previous versions



Jan 30, 2017 at 12:37 AM
adamdewilde
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p.19 #18 · Leica 'M10"


uhoh7 wrote:
If you enjoy the 1930 to 2017 range of RF glass you won't be pining for a GFX.


You said it better than me!



Jan 30, 2017 at 12:41 AM
frezeiss
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p.19 #19 · Leica 'M10"


Still considering to jump in to Leica in the near future but wondering whether it is better to get a used M240 with money leftover to upgrade my A7 to mk.3 or spring all resource for the M10.

Do you guys consider the M240 sensor to be equal to Sony's 24 MP? Is shadow lifting capabilities the same between them at below ISO 1000..



Jan 30, 2017 at 08:17 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.19 #20 · Leica 'M10"




frezeiss wrote:
Still considering to jump in to Leica in the near future but wondering whether it is better to get a used M240 with money leftover to upgrade my A7 to mk.3 or spring all resource for the M10.

Do you guys consider the M240 sensor to be equal to Sony's 24 MP? Is shadow lifting capabilities the same between them at below ISO 1000..


It would be very difficult to compare these two sensors. There is in my opinion too many differences. Sony raw files are heavily processed by the camera while Leica files are as raw as can be. Color and CFA density is also quite different. I think you can get fairly competitive results from the 240 if you work on the files a bit.



Jan 30, 2017 at 08:23 AM
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