uhoh7 wrote:
haha I can't even believe I swallowed an M9. It's size and weight are a huge comprimise, but my lenses kiss me for it
No innovation, oh, you are a hard sell!!
Best 4K specs period, no? 11FPS, no? Ming talks about the very fast selection of AF points, or something, you know how I feel about AF. Only use it for money. The mag steps, they have improved Sony's mag. The EVF is a light year ahead of everything, by all accounts. Very fast in every function.
I think you are blinded by the bulk
You are right on all these counts, Charles. It seems, like Apple and Adobe, Sony and Leica just cannot get along, despite their customers cash. It's incredible. But, in the spirit of schoolyard fights, "Sony started it" The fight that is. Leica, of course, started the entire format. No gratitude form these upstarts, like Zeiss!
I really hope he makes the plunge and cannot wait to enjoy the results ...Show more →
Charlie, it is not the best 4K specs because it is only 4K with a Super 35mm image circle. The A7s nearly the same 4K specs and uses the whole width of the sensor. That is a big deal for both depth of field and wide angles. The A7s will also ave better high ISO which is very nice for video as well. Still the SL should be second to the A7s with excellent 4K for the Super 35mm image circle and the samples so far look great. Nasty artifacts are well in check.
naturephoto1 wrote:
I am still not to happy about the price or the fact that the camera is only 24 MP instead of 36. I do not think that the files will equal those from my A7r.
Rich
It's obviously not going to win on raw resolution, so it'll be interesting to see if you find other aspects more pleasing than the a7r.
I doubt anyone will ever be happy with Leica's pricing. Well, except for all of the other camera manufacturers.
charles.K wrote:
The more I read and compare the specs of the SL 601, the more I feel Leica has missed the target.
For the size of this beast, there are many better options for FF, cost effective and a large range of lenses available. The SL 601 does not have the best sensor, it is large/heavy and it does not really do anything better than what is available. There is only one lens available for now and of course you can use M mount lenses. The M lenses do not even perform as well as on the M240!
Leica have some of the best lens designers, and really should be producing in parallel Leica FE mount lenses. The market for the A7 series is growing, and having high end Leica FE mount lenses would over shadow most of the Loxia lenses even at a higher cost. You don't need to compete with AF, but have small/light lenses that would bring out the best in the latest A7's.
Maybe the target are the professionals, but most pros I speak to are cost conscious and very mindful of what equipment they invest in. Knowing there is basically only one AF lens available for now, most will not take the plunge.
I have loved the M9/MM and M240 as these cameras are seriously "cool" and unique and fun to use.
I don't think so. And we don't know what is in store for the future. Nikon has had mini versions of their flag ship DSLRs. Eg the D700 was a mini D3 and sold like hot cakes. I suppose there is hope that Leica introduce a Mini SL that costs less and has similar features. If they did that I have a feeling more people would be excited about it.
They probably worry that their M sales could take a hit but I don't think so. It's highly apparent that those who shoot M are in for the RF experience.
Just curious. People complain about resolution. How many here actually print?
I own a Z3200 and I can print a 12 MP file and have it look fantastic. I think 24MP vs 36MP isn't huge unless you consistently print BIG or need to crop a lot. 24MP is fine for the most part fine for my needs.
uhoh7 wrote:
No flip out LCD, but at least it is touch Problem with flip out is it's really vulnerable. This thing is meant for the gulf of Alaska, and it doesn't even need a boat.
I'd be hard pressed to even consider taking an SL into weather or other conditions an E-M1 couldn't handle. Frankly until I see some testing I'd hesitate to trust weather sealing from any manufacturer unwilling to do shower tests and post them (ie anyone other than Pentax or Olympus). Once burned and all (not a Leica thing, I'm equally ambivalent about Nikon, Canon and Sony here).
Flip-out on the E-M1 is not vulnerable at all, the hinges are very robust.
Oct 21, 2015 at 09:36 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
I hope that Leica Reps can fill me in somewhat about the performance of M lenses on the camera tomorrow. I doubt that I will be able to get any usable files out of the camera to review after the show.
Rich
That would be great Rich. It seems to be clearly a lot better than the unmodified Sony A7 cameras, but does it match the m240? We really have only report that it is slightly worse, but that just seemed to be an opinion without careful testing. It would be good to hear what Leica says.
There have been a few comments about the 24-90, mostly negative. Looking at raw samples on DPReview, I am very, very impressed with this lens. It looks like it hits all the sweet spots for me: very good performance in terms of high contrast edges and longitudinal CA, overall a very "clean" feeling image. Software correction for distortion and lateral CA is low enough to be implemented on an image-by-image basis (I'm using Capture One; Lightroom appears to have the corrections baked in). Good resolution but without the sacrifices I see in other high quality lenses (e.g., Canon 24-70/2.8 II, Sigma Art, Batis) entail to get there (although those lenses probably have higher peak performance on test charts). I suspect that fans of Mandler lenses will be pleased with the 24-90 and that not a few people will buy the SL simply to mount this lens on it. As for size, the specs indicate that it is only modestly larger than the R 28-90 (with adapter), so that doesn't deter me. I think Leica managed to complement both the M and S systems without encroaching upon either.
On an unrelated note, it appears to me that the SL has rather thick color filters. Applying color profiles for recent Leica cameras oversaturates the colors; the best profiles I've found are for the Leica DMR and some Phase One backs, which substantially undersaturate colors from my Sony images. I think this means that the SL will have very good color differentiation and smooth tonal transitions.
Specs aside, I think the results from this new system are going to be convincing.
It will never happen, but I'd like to see someone make something like the GXR again but even more modular. Sensor module, EVF module, grip module, rear LCD module. Each module could come in variants, such as S, M, L, XL grips. You'd cobble together the combination of modules that best suit your needs, both for general and specific applications. I'd want it to be high-grade construction with very tight, robust interlocking. The SL feels like this kind of camera to me, but Leica made all the decisions and welded it together in a big slab. If I had a choice, I'd definitely swap out the grip for something more ergonomic and probably make the EVF a flat slab over the sensor area, with an RF style VF placement...
Anyway, no real point to this post. Just something that came to mind reading the other comments.
Jordan, looking forward to your PPE reports. When I was there last year, as a regular visitor, I didn't find it overly busy. The big brands had busy booths, such as Canon, but it was relatively easy access to Zeiss and Leica. But then neither had just announced products just days or weeks before.
uhoh7 wrote:
No innovation, oh, you are a hard sell!!
yes
uhoh7 wrote:
Best 4K specs period, no?
no.
uhoh7 wrote:
11FPS, no?
how is that innovating? what does the 1DX shoot (i honestly don't know)? your old nex-5n shot 10fps. i guess it's new for leica?
uhoh7 wrote:
Ming talks about the very fast selection of AF points, or something, you know how I feel about AF. Only use it for money.
don't pay much attention to that, is a joystick innovative?
uhoh7 wrote:
The mag steps, they have improved Sony's mag.
i'm pretty sure they're not first to do this and/or they did it in the x1 or something already. what i really want is picture in picture magnification for framing while focusing magnified, which somebody (maybe leica has already done several years ago?).
uhoh7 wrote:
The EVF is a light year ahead of everything, by all accounts. Very fast in every function.
it looks great, it's just off the shelf components from panasonic or somebody with some decent optics on it though no? i'm sure other mirrorless makers would include something like that too if they made a camera for the $7k price point. is there nothing similar in real video cameras?
uhoh7 wrote:
I think you are blinded by the bulk
my interest is blinded by the bulk to the point that i haven't read any reviews other than looking at the pics.
the camera looks nice to me except for the styling and size, but not innovative. i don't really feel like innovation in camera bodies is leica's thing anymore anyway. they're more about premium feel combined with simple functional design (and great optics).
Steve Spencer wrote:
Charlie, it is not the best 4K specs because it is only 4K with a Super 35mm image circle. The A7s nearly the same 4K specs and uses the whole width of the sensor. That is a big deal for both depth of field and wide angles. The A7s will also ave better high ISO which is very nice for video as well. Still the SL should be second to the A7s with excellent 4K for the Super 35mm image circle and the samples so far look great. Nasty artifacts are well in check.
Good points Steve, and as an old Sony PD-170 shooter (100+weddings) I appreciate the info, as HD put me off video (the workflow, not the resutls), and I am not up on it first hand.
I admire the A7s2 (and the A7r2, believe it or not) very much, and I'd love to have one to Kolari. But that would be for lowlight work only, where it is unmatched. In daylight, I'd want a few more pixels, even 18 would be fine for stills, with good raws.
sebboh wrote:
how is that innovating? what does the 1DX shoot (i honestly don't know)? your old nex-5n shot 10fps. i guess it's new for leica?
don't pay much attention to that, is a joystick innovative?
1DX is 12fps, 14fps in Jpeg with AE/AF locked.
The joystick is kind of an innovation on a mirrorless. It's on the 1DX and other cameras and is a very quick way to change AF points in a multi-point array. This is another factor about the a7 series that frustrates me. Menu diving to move the AF point around, IIRC. There isn't a dedicated, fluid, easy way to do it, such as with a joystick. Yet for an AF dependent camera, you'd think this would be a fundamental design requirement! It's one of the first things I felt was missing when I tried the first a7 way back when...
freaklikeme wrote:
I'll go on that list now. I'm very happy with the a7II's body-style for hand-held, but if someone came up with a way to pop the lens off the RX1II and replace it with an e-mount, it would make a near-perfect mini-DB. Flat and small, so no interference in movements, an EVF when you need it, an AA filter when you need it. The only way they could improve that is to get rid of the mount completely and make the front an open interface. And maybe slap their big-boy 50MP sensor in there.
i'm down for that. i need to start scouring ebay for brokeh rx1s again so i can make my own camera.
sebboh wrote:
i'm pretty sure they're not first to do this and/or they did it in the x1 or something already. what i really want is picture in picture magnification for framing while focusing magnified, which somebody (maybe leica has already done several years ago?).
Yes, this is so obvious. What are they waiting for? Meaning all EVIL makers.
PS Ming also notes A7r2 has shutter lag in comparison
And I'm going to say right here right now, I don't care what anyone thinks, to me this is quite a gorgeous machine.
Of course I was one of the tasteless who thought the original A7 looked perfectly fine.
rscheffler wrote:
The joystick is kind of an innovation on a mirrorless. It's on the 1DX and other cameras and is a very quick way to change AF points in a multi-point array. This is another factor about the a7 series that frustrates me. Menu diving to move the AF point around, IIRC. There isn't a dedicated, fluid, easy way to do it, such as with a joystick. Yet for an AF dependent camera, you'd think this would be a fundamental design requirement! It's one of the first things I felt was missing when I tried the first a7 way back when...
yeah, i thought the 1DX matched both those features.
if i had to use AF lenses on the A7 i would probably give up photography after smashing a few cameras. luckily, nearly all my ergonomic complaints go away when i mount a manual focus lens on the camera. i think some of the really bad oversights have been fixed on the a7rII?
sebboh wrote:
yeah, i thought the 1DX matched both those features.
if i had to use AF lenses on the A7 i would probably give up photography after smashing a few cameras. luckily, nearly all my ergonomic complaints go away when i mount a manual focus lens on the camera. i think some of the really bad oversights have been fixed on the a7rII?
I guess.
IMO, the first-gen a7 series is the mirrorless equivalent to the Maxxum 7000 and siblings. Hideous UI. I wonder how much of Minolta design from the early AF era remains in Sony, but there must be something.
A short time later Canon released the EOS-1. IMO a revolution in fluid UI. Quick, precise aperture & shutter speed control under your fingertips. No silly rockers or annoyingly weird buttons... I would be really happy with a mirroless 1DX, with very similar button/dial placement, albeit one that was considerably slimmed and made somewhat lighter without compromising rugged build quality. The SL seems the closest mirrorless to this ideal, but without some of the ergonomic considerations.
sebboh wrote:
i'm pretty sure they're not first to do this and/or they did it in the x1 or something already. what i really want is picture in picture magnification for framing while focusing magnified, which somebody (maybe leica has already done several years ago?).
The GXR had it, though the magnified picture was quite pixelated and IMO useless. What they did have, that I preferred over typical focus peaking, was a monochromatic image with kind of an embossed edges effect. Not sure exactly how to describe it. In the GXR clique it was referred to as 'Predator view'.
IMO, magnified view is fine for stationary subjects, but a pain for anything moving. I'm hoping that as EVF resolution increases, it will be easier to eyeball focus placement without magnification. This is one of the things I believe really sets apart RF focusing. You get a very clear idea of how far off your focus is by the degree of double image divergence within the RF patch, yet it doesn't seem to distract from seeing the entire scene. For some reason I always find that focusing off an EVF disassociates me from what I'm photographing...
davewolfs wrote:
Just read the manual. Odd that you can't control exposure compensation when in aperture priority or shutter priority modes.
Yes, that has got to be in the first firmware fix. It would seem like such a basic function. The M9 and M240 allow you to use the rear dial for exposure compensation... Why not the SL?
IMO, the first-gen a7 series is the mirrorless equivalent to the Maxxum 7000 and siblings. Hideous UI. I wonder how much of Minolta design from the early AF era remains in Sony, but there must be something.
A short time later Canon released the EOS-1. IMO a revolution in fluid UI. Quick, precise aperture & shutter speed control under your fingertips. No silly rockers or annoyingly weird buttons... I would be really happy with a mirroless 1DX, with very similar button/dial placement, albeit one that was considerably slimmed and made somewhat lighter without compromising rugged build quality. The SL seems the closest mirrorless to this ideal, but without some of the ergonomic considerations....Show more →
i never used any of the maxxums but i'll take your word for it. my UI demands are pretty minimal for a camera the way i shoot. i just need shutter speed, EC, iso, and some kinda shutter (AE lock is nice too, but not necessary). the m controls seem pretty good for me. if only they'd slim the m240 down a bit and put this evf where the rangefinder is... the a7 controls i need are all right under my finger tips, so my only real complaint is the terrible shutter feel.
The fight that is. Leica, of course, started the entire format. No gratitude form these upstarts, like Zeiss!
Problem with flip out is it's really vulnerable. This thing is meant for the gulf of Alaska, and it doesn't even need a boat. 