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Archive 2015Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
p.40 #1Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
I have had 4 copies of Classic Distagon 21mm 2.8 .ZF. 2x .ZF1 and 2x .ZF2. Two (2nd .ZF1 and 2nd. ZF2) were midly decentered and two others good but with varying hard stop position. Last one went to Germany for repairs and came back just about perfect.
So no, Zeiss "quality" is somewhat a myth in my book.
So no, Zeiss "quality" is somewhat a myth in my book.
Feb 17, 2016 at 06:50 AM
p.40 #2Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Jochenb wrote:
Your summary is correct Fred. It's not unusual behavior for a wide angle lens. My copy was weird at some focus distances, because of it's decentering. It's now back to the store. Sadly even the distributor can't say anything about when new stock will arrive at the stores. It could be weeks, but also months. Zeiss must've really underestimated the success. Also look at the bad availability of the Batis lenses, still today.
BTW, this was only my second decentered Zeiss lens ever (and I've bought many). I hope it's just bad luck and not declining QC.
I am still testing mine and if I do find any problems I will send it in for repair rather than an exchange unit as I just wouldn't want to talk the chance on another decanter lens
Your summary is correct Fred. It's not unusual behavior for a wide angle lens. My copy was weird at some focus distances, because of it's decentering. It's now back to the store. Sadly even the distributor can't say anything about when new stock will arrive at the stores. It could be weeks, but also months. Zeiss must've really underestimated the success. Also look at the bad availability of the Batis lenses, still today.
BTW, this was only my second decentered Zeiss lens ever (and I've bought many). I hope it's just bad luck and not declining QC.
I am still testing mine and if I do find any problems I will send it in for repair rather than an exchange unit as I just wouldn't want to talk the chance on another decanter lens
Feb 17, 2016 at 09:10 AM
p.40 #3Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Mine will get a serious workout in NY when I leave in the next week or so, so Ill give it a could field use. I seem to have a very good copy of the Loxia. From tests my corners are identical to each other at all apertures.
Feb 17, 2016 at 09:16 AM
p.40 #4Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Jochenb wrote:
Your summary is correct Fred. It's not unusual behavior for a wide angle lens. My copy was weird at some focus distances, because of it's decentering. It's now back to the store. Sadly even the distributor can't say anything about when new stock will arrive at the stores. It could be weeks, but also months. Zeiss must've really underestimated the success. Also look at the bad availability of the Batis lenses, still today.
BTW, this was only my second decentered Zeiss lens ever (and I've bought many). I hope it's just bad luck and not declining QC.
I was thinking about this today. When I was shooting Canon, my TS-E 17mm f/4L copy had pronounced field curvature (or at least apparent field curvature). I took it to Canon and described the issue and they were somehow able to diminish the discrepancy between center/corners to acceptable levels. I was very surprised.
Perhaps some Loxia 21/2.8 lenses could be tweaked by Zeiss to accomplish this as well. What do you guys think?
Your summary is correct Fred. It's not unusual behavior for a wide angle lens. My copy was weird at some focus distances, because of it's decentering. It's now back to the store. Sadly even the distributor can't say anything about when new stock will arrive at the stores. It could be weeks, but also months. Zeiss must've really underestimated the success. Also look at the bad availability of the Batis lenses, still today.
BTW, this was only my second decentered Zeiss lens ever (and I've bought many). I hope it's just bad luck and not declining QC.
I was thinking about this today. When I was shooting Canon, my TS-E 17mm f/4L copy had pronounced field curvature (or at least apparent field curvature). I took it to Canon and described the issue and they were somehow able to diminish the discrepancy between center/corners to acceptable levels. I was very surprised.
Perhaps some Loxia 21/2.8 lenses could be tweaked by Zeiss to accomplish this as well. What do you guys think?
Feb 17, 2016 at 04:30 PM
p.40 #5Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Fred Miranda wrote:
BTW, this was only my second decentered Zeiss lens ever (and I've bought many). I hope it's just bad luck and not declining QC.I was thinking about this today. When I was shooting Canon, my TS-E 17mm f/4L copy had pronounced field curvature (or at least apparent field curvature). I took it to Canon and described the issue and they were somehow able to diminish the discrepancy between center/corners to acceptable levels. I was very surprised.
Perhaps some Loxia 21/2.8 lenses could be tweaked by Zeiss to accomplish this as well. What do you guys think?
for most lenses with floating element designs the degree and direction of field curvature for a given focus position can be changed by calibrating the FLE, though this will often change other aspects of performance a bit as well. often times if a FLE is out of calibration it will show up as increased FC and a factory CLA will correct it. the loxia doesn't seem to have an FLE according to it's data sheet, but i'm sure the FC profile could probably be changed by repositioning certain elements. the question is whether that would diminish other aspects of performance too much. it seems that the FC is there by design as one of the many choices of trade offs zeiss made in designing this lens.
Jochenb wrote
Your summary is correct Fred. It's not unusual behavior for a wide angle lens. My copy was weird at some focus distances, because of it's decentering. It's now back to the store. Sadly even the distributor can't say anything about when new stock will arrive at the stores. It could be weeks, but also months. Zeiss must've really underestimated the success. Also look at the bad availability of the Batis lenses, still today.BTW, this was only my second decentered Zeiss lens ever (and I've bought many). I hope it's just bad luck and not declining QC.
Perhaps some Loxia 21/2.8 lenses could be tweaked by Zeiss to accomplish this as well. What do you guys think?
for most lenses with floating element designs the degree and direction of field curvature for a given focus position can be changed by calibrating the FLE, though this will often change other aspects of performance a bit as well. often times if a FLE is out of calibration it will show up as increased FC and a factory CLA will correct it. the loxia doesn't seem to have an FLE according to it's data sheet, but i'm sure the FC profile could probably be changed by repositioning certain elements. the question is whether that would diminish other aspects of performance too much. it seems that the FC is there by design as one of the many choices of trade offs zeiss made in designing this lens.
Feb 17, 2016 at 05:14 PM
p.40 #6Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
sebboh wrote:
BTW, this was only my second decentered Zeiss lens ever (and I've bought many). I hope it's just bad luck and not declining QC.I was thinking about this today. When I was shooting Canon, my TS-E 17mm f/4L copy had pronounced field curvature (or at least apparent field curvature). I took it to Canon and described the issue and they were somehow able to diminish the discrepancy between center/corners to acceptable levels. I was very surprised.
Perhaps some Loxia 21/2.8 lenses could be tweaked by Zeiss to accomplish this as well. What do you guys think?for most lenses with floating element designs the degree and direction of field curvature for a given focus position can be changed by calibrating the FLE, though this will often change other aspects of performance a bit as well. often times if a FLE is out of calibration it will show up as increased FC and a factory CLA will correct it. the loxia doesn't seem to have an FLE according to it's data sheet, but i'm sure the FC profile could probably be changed by repositioning certain elements. the question is whether that would diminish other aspects of performance...Show more →
Makes sense. Thanks for the response.
Here is what Zeiss wrote regarding FLE on the Loxia 21/2.8:
"The Loxia lenses do not feature a floating element design. The floating element design compensates for aberrations of the lenses at different distance settings. This is accomplished by changing the axial distance between individual lens elements or element groups. The mechanical design is very complex and affects the design of the lenses. The lenses become larger and heavier. Since the Loxia lenses have a particularly compact design, we have decided not to use the floating elements design in these lenses."
This is a difference between the Loxia 21/2.8 and the bigger Zeiss 21mm f/2.8 (ZE, ZF.2) which do have a floating elements system.
Fred Miranda wrote
Jochenb wrote
Your summary is correct Fred. It's not unusual behavior for a wide angle lens. My copy was weird at some focus distances, because of it's decentering. It's now back to the store. Sadly even the distributor can't say anything about when new stock will arrive at the stores. It could be weeks, but also months. Zeiss must've really underestimated the success. Also look at the bad availability of the Batis lenses, still today.BTW, this was only my second decentered Zeiss lens ever (and I've bought many). I hope it's just bad luck and not declining QC.
Perhaps some Loxia 21/2.8 lenses could be tweaked by Zeiss to accomplish this as well. What do you guys think?
Makes sense. Thanks for the response.
Here is what Zeiss wrote regarding FLE on the Loxia 21/2.8:
"The Loxia lenses do not feature a floating element design. The floating element design compensates for aberrations of the lenses at different distance settings. This is accomplished by changing the axial distance between individual lens elements or element groups. The mechanical design is very complex and affects the design of the lenses. The lenses become larger and heavier. Since the Loxia lenses have a particularly compact design, we have decided not to use the floating elements design in these lenses."
This is a difference between the Loxia 21/2.8 and the bigger Zeiss 21mm f/2.8 (ZE, ZF.2) which do have a floating elements system.
Feb 17, 2016 at 05:21 PM
p.40 #7Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Fascinating. Amazing that it's so nice near MFD then.
But I've never tested it flat-field near MFD -- only with 3d subjects and with focussing on things in the corners.
I wonder what aberrations floating elements compensate for? I've always just unreflectively assumed they make the lens overall sharper at close distances. But maybe they just flatten out the field.
But I've never tested it flat-field near MFD -- only with 3d subjects and with focussing on things in the corners.
I wonder what aberrations floating elements compensate for? I've always just unreflectively assumed they make the lens overall sharper at close distances. But maybe they just flatten out the field.
Feb 17, 2016 at 07:03 PM
p.40 #8Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Having done a load of tests I am pretty sure mine is slightly de-centered with it being a little soft in the upper left so will be sending it back to Zeiss
Feb 18, 2016 at 10:25 AM
p.40 #9Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Fred Miranda wrote:
BTW, this was only my second decentered Zeiss lens ever (and I've bought many). I hope it's just bad luck and not declining QC.I was thinking about this today. When I was shooting Canon, my TS-E 17mm f/4L copy had pronounced field curvature (or at least apparent field curvature). I took it to Canon and described the issue and they were somehow able to diminish the discrepancy between center/corners to acceptable levels. I was very surprised.
Perhaps some Loxia 21/2.8 lenses could be tweaked by Zeiss to accomplish this as well. What do you guys think?for most lenses with floating element designs the degree and direction of field curvature for a given focus position can be changed by calibrating the FLE, though this will often change other aspects of performance a bit as well. often times if a FLE is out of calibration it will show up as increased FC and a factory CLA will correct it. the loxia doesn't seem to have an FLE according to it's data sheet, but i'm sure the FC profile could probably be changed by repositioning certain elements. the question is whether that would diminish other aspects of performance too much. it seems that the FC is there by design as one of the many choices of trade offs zeiss made in designing this lens.Makes sense. Thanks for the response.
Here is what Zeiss wrote regarding FLE on the Loxia 21/2.8:
"The Loxia lenses do not feature a floating element design. The floating element design compensates for aberrations of the lenses at different distance settings. This is accomplished by changing the axial distance between individual lens elements or element groups. The mechanical design is very complex and affects the design of the lenses. The lenses become larger and heavier. Since the Loxia lenses have a particularly compact design, we have decided not to use the floating elements design in these lenses."
This is a difference between...Show more →
Interesting bit of info - Loxia vs. ZF; size and FLE. So does that mean that future 25mm and 28mm Loxia will contain no FLE's? Puts more pressure on the designer & his computer to come up with optimal lens calculation, but the results seem to be evident in the Loxia 21/2.8
sebboh wrote
Fred Miranda wrote
Jochenb wrote
Your summary is correct Fred. It's not unusual behavior for a wide angle lens. My copy was weird at some focus distances, because of it's decentering. It's now back to the store. Sadly even the distributor can't say anything about when new stock will arrive at the stores. It could be weeks, but also months. Zeiss must've really underestimated the success. Also look at the bad availability of the Batis lenses, still today.BTW, this was only my second decentered Zeiss lens ever (and I've bought many). I hope it's just bad luck and not declining QC.
Perhaps some Loxia 21/2.8 lenses could be tweaked by Zeiss to accomplish this as well. What do you guys think?
Here is what Zeiss wrote regarding FLE on the Loxia 21/2.8:
"The Loxia lenses do not feature a floating element design. The floating element design compensates for aberrations of the lenses at different distance settings. This is accomplished by changing the axial distance between individual lens elements or element groups. The mechanical design is very complex and affects the design of the lenses. The lenses become larger and heavier. Since the Loxia lenses have a particularly compact design, we have decided not to use the floating elements design in these lenses."
This is a difference between...Show more →
Interesting bit of info - Loxia vs. ZF; size and FLE. So does that mean that future 25mm and 28mm Loxia will contain no FLE's? Puts more pressure on the designer & his computer to come up with optimal lens calculation, but the results seem to be evident in the Loxia 21/2.8
Feb 18, 2016 at 11:57 AM
p.40 #10Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
carlitos wrote:
BTW, this was only my second decentered Zeiss lens ever (and I've bought many). I hope it's just bad luck and not declining QC.I was thinking about this today. When I was shooting Canon, my TS-E 17mm f/4L copy had pronounced field curvature (or at least apparent field curvature). I took it to Canon and described the issue and they were somehow able to diminish the discrepancy between center/corners to acceptable levels. I was very surprised.
Perhaps some Loxia 21/2.8 lenses could be tweaked by Zeiss to accomplish this as well. What do you guys think?for most lenses with floating element designs the degree and direction of field curvature for a given focus position can be changed by calibrating the FLE, though this will often change other aspects of performance a bit as well. often times if a FLE is out of calibration it will show up as increased FC and a factory CLA will correct it. the loxia doesn't seem to have an FLE according to it's data sheet, but i'm sure the FC profile could probably be changed by repositioning certain elements. the question is whether that would diminish other aspects of performance too much. it seems that the FC is there by design as one of the many choices of trade offs zeiss made in designing this lens.Makes sense. Thanks for the response.
Here is what Zeiss wrote regarding FLE on the Loxia 21/2.8:
"The Loxia lenses do not feature a floating element design. The floating element design compensates for aberrations of the lenses at different distance settings. This is accomplished by changing the axial distance between individual lens elements or element groups. The mechanical design is very complex and affects the design of the lenses. The lenses become larger and heavier. Since the Loxia lenses have a particularly compact design, we have decided not to use the floating elements design in these lenses."
This is a difference between the Loxia 21/2.8 and the bigger Zeiss 21mm f/2.8 (ZE, ZF.2) which do have a floating elements system.Interesting bit of info - Loxia vs. ZF; size and FLE. So does that mean that future 25mm and 28mm Loxia will contain no FLE's? Puts more pressure on the designer & his computer to come up with optimal lens calculation, but the results seem to be evident in the Loxia 21/2.8
Yes, it's not talked about but Zeiss figured out a way to design a very high quality lens while keeping it very compact.
The trade-offs like higher vignetting and perhaps slight higher field curvature are not very noticeable in the real world and some photographers actually think it benefits their image taking (sharper foregrounds)
Zeiss was able to remove the FLE from the lens design and maintain high sharpness at close-up and infinity distances. Usually to keep a lens compact, distortion and aberrations suffer the most, but we do not see that with this lens. Instead, it seems to actually outperform the classic 21/2.8 design on these issues.
Fred Miranda wrote
sebboh wrote
Fred Miranda wrote
Jochenb wrote
Your summary is correct Fred. It's not unusual behavior for a wide angle lens. My copy was weird at some focus distances, because of it's decentering. It's now back to the store. Sadly even the distributor can't say anything about when new stock will arrive at the stores. It could be weeks, but also months. Zeiss must've really underestimated the success. Also look at the bad availability of the Batis lenses, still today.BTW, this was only my second decentered Zeiss lens ever (and I've bought many). I hope it's just bad luck and not declining QC.
Perhaps some Loxia 21/2.8 lenses could be tweaked by Zeiss to accomplish this as well. What do you guys think?
Here is what Zeiss wrote regarding FLE on the Loxia 21/2.8:
"The Loxia lenses do not feature a floating element design. The floating element design compensates for aberrations of the lenses at different distance settings. This is accomplished by changing the axial distance between individual lens elements or element groups. The mechanical design is very complex and affects the design of the lenses. The lenses become larger and heavier. Since the Loxia lenses have a particularly compact design, we have decided not to use the floating elements design in these lenses."
This is a difference between the Loxia 21/2.8 and the bigger Zeiss 21mm f/2.8 (ZE, ZF.2) which do have a floating elements system.
Yes, it's not talked about but Zeiss figured out a way to design a very high quality lens while keeping it very compact.
The trade-offs like higher vignetting and perhaps slight higher field curvature are not very noticeable in the real world and some photographers actually think it benefits their image taking (sharper foregrounds)
Zeiss was able to remove the FLE from the lens design and maintain high sharpness at close-up and infinity distances. Usually to keep a lens compact, distortion and aberrations suffer the most, but we do not see that with this lens. Instead, it seems to actually outperform the classic 21/2.8 design on these issues.
Feb 18, 2016 at 12:22 PM
p.40 #11Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Viramati wrote:
Having done a load of tests I am pretty sure mine is slightly de-centered with it being a little soft in the upper left so will be sending it back to Zeiss
I think it's a good move. My Loxia 35/2 was decentered and Zeiss is fixing it right now. I hate returning lenses and much prefer letting the lens maker take care of the problems within the warranty period.
Having done a load of tests I am pretty sure mine is slightly de-centered with it being a little soft in the upper left so will be sending it back to Zeiss
I think it's a good move. My Loxia 35/2 was decentered and Zeiss is fixing it right now. I hate returning lenses and much prefer letting the lens maker take care of the problems within the warranty period.
Feb 18, 2016 at 12:30 PM
p.40 #12Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Some very nice images in the thread. 
It does seem clear this is the best 21 you can mount on a stock A7x. The handling issues, quality control, and performance quirks, FC and "focus shift" at the edges, combined with a 1500 price tag and low supply are disappointing. The time involved in dealing with a bad copy in effect makes the price even higher.
Most of my use of 21 is for landscapes, where infinity performance across the frame is what I like to see.
There are some very sharp eyes doing good reporting last few pages. I think what would be good is some context. In that vein I'd love to see the Lox on A7 or A7II vs Kolari + 21 SEM. My own kolari is away at the momment but should return soon. I don't really think of such a comparison as "competition", but a measurement of performance against real world alternatives, vs perfect pixels.
It does seem clear this is the best 21 you can mount on a stock A7x. The handling issues, quality control, and performance quirks, FC and "focus shift" at the edges, combined with a 1500 price tag and low supply are disappointing. The time involved in dealing with a bad copy in effect makes the price even higher.
Most of my use of 21 is for landscapes, where infinity performance across the frame is what I like to see.
There are some very sharp eyes doing good reporting last few pages. I think what would be good is some context. In that vein I'd love to see the Lox on A7 or A7II vs Kolari + 21 SEM. My own kolari is away at the momment but should return soon. I don't really think of such a comparison as "competition", but a measurement of performance against real world alternatives, vs perfect pixels.
Feb 18, 2016 at 12:42 PM
p.40 #13Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Fred Miranda wrote:
I think it's a good move. My Loxia 35/2 was decentered and Zeiss is fixing it right now. I hate returning lenses and much prefer letting the lens maker take care of the problems within the warranty period.
My feeling too and luckily I have the FE16-35 which will now get some more landscape use
Viramati wrote
Having done a load of tests I am pretty sure mine is slightly de-centered with it being a little soft in the upper left so will be sending it back to ZeissMy feeling too and luckily I have the FE16-35 which will now get some more landscape use
Feb 18, 2016 at 12:47 PM
p.40 #14Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Viramati wrote:
I think it's a good move. My Loxia 35/2 was decentered and Zeiss is fixing it right now. I hate returning lenses and much prefer letting the lens maker take care of the problems within the warranty period.My feeling too and luckily I have the FE16-35 which will now get some more landscape use
Same here
Here are the last 2 latest pictures I took with the Loxia 21mm f/2.8 for those who have not seeing it on the Landscape board:
Fred Miranda wrote
Viramati wrote
Having done a load of tests I am pretty sure mine is slightly de-centered with it being a little soft in the upper left so will be sending it back to ZeissSame here
Here are the last 2 latest pictures I took with the Loxia 21mm f/2.8 for those who have not seeing it on the Landscape board:
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Feb 18, 2016 at 12:51 PM
p.40 #15Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
^ Awesome Fred. Just makes me want to get back to Yosemite. I've only been there once!
Feb 18, 2016 at 01:21 PM
p.40 #16Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
The big log must be gone now. Fred nice shots. Love that spot, you got some great light.
Feb 18, 2016 at 02:09 PM
p.40 #17Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
For those who are interested, my full review is up: http://admiringlight.com/blog/review-zeiss-loxia-21mm-f2-8-distagon-t/
Feb 18, 2016 at 06:59 PM
p.40 #18Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Jman13 wrote:
For those who are interested, my full review is up: http://admiringlight.com/blog/review-zeiss-loxia-21mm-f2-8-distagon-t/
Great review. Thanks for posting the link.
How does the Loxia 21 stack up against the Batis 25, which you reviewed late last year?
For those who are interested, my full review is up: http://admiringlight.com/blog/review-zeiss-loxia-21mm-f2-8-distagon-t/
Great review. Thanks for posting the link.
How does the Loxia 21 stack up against the Batis 25, which you reviewed late last year?
Feb 18, 2016 at 07:22 PM
p.40 #19Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Went to my dealer this morning and they agreed with my findings so sadly it is winging it's way back to Zeiss in Germany to get serviced. Hopefully will get it back before the end of March when I go to Scotland teaching on a Photography and Meditation retreat
Edited on Feb 20, 2016 at 09:32 AM · View previous versions
Edited on Feb 20, 2016 at 09:32 AM · View previous versions
Feb 19, 2016 at 09:07 AM
p.40 #20Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Viramati wrote:
Went to my dealer this morning and they agreed with my findings so sadly it is winging it's way back to Zeiss in Germany to get serviced. Hopefully will get it back before the end of March when I go to Scotland teaching on a Photography end Meditation retreat
My first repair came back after 2 weeks, I am optimistic that you can take yours to Scotland
Went to my dealer this morning and they agreed with my findings so sadly it is winging it's way back to Zeiss in Germany to get serviced. Hopefully will get it back before the end of March when I go to Scotland teaching on a Photography end Meditation retreat
My first repair came back after 2 weeks, I am optimistic that you can take yours to Scotland
Feb 19, 2016 at 09:12 AM