p.4 #1 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
Gunzorro wrote:
If by, "Canon and Nikon, both have fought hard to not legitimize the mirrorless market." , you mean "fought not one battle in the mirrorless market, and continue to thrive, . . .", then, yes, I agree!
Thrive is not what I'd use when reading their financial statements and future revenue projections which point down.
p.4 #2 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
cvrle59 wrote:
Obviously, it suits your needs well, that's fine. But, OVF will never go away completely. There will be always market for it. It is as fast as the light is, so EVF will never reach there, period. It's matter of physics, not Sony, Nikon, Canon, Samsung, or any other manufacturer. We will be always dealing with that comprise, and there are still a lot of people out there, who would appreciate speed of light more than all the information on that little screen.
But when the EVF is fast enough that you can't tell the difference, then it is basically the speed of light. TV for my purpose is realtime enough...
p.4 #3 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
itai195 wrote:
I think Canon and Nikon are more concerned about the overall decline of the camera market than in competing with mirrorless in particular. The mirrorless offerings we have now from several makers are excellent, but they're not exactly saving the camera industry.
No, but they have eaten into 25% of traditional camera sales...a 25% both Canon and Nikon would dearly love to have today.
p.4 #4 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
rattymouse wrote:
Spot on. There's no doubt in my mind that mirrorless hardly exists as a threat to Canon and Nikon. They are smart enough to know that there's something bigger going on then this (it's called the smart phone). Out of all of the mirrorless players, only Sony has any serious traction and even they are a far distant third place in market share.
Like I said in a previous post, mirrorless has taken away 25% of sales from canon/Nikon which is very substantial. If you are running a business and something came in and took 25% of your sales one year, you had better pay attention to it.
p.4 #5 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
dasrocket wrote:
Only true for bright light. The clarity, gain and ability to focus in low light with EVFs surpassed
OVFs quite a while ago.
Lee Saxon wrote:
Okay, that's two people who have made this statement which is literally the opposite of true within a few posts of each other. Are we being had?
molson wrote:
I suspect these sorts of silly claims are coming from people who have only just upgraded from smartphones, and have never actually used a real camera...
what is it that you guys think makes OVFs better in low light? i've shot optical finders for years and still use ones in film cameras that far surpass any in a modern dslr's. the evf in my a7 is much better than any OVF i've ever used for low light focusing and allows easy focus long after i'd be totally reliant on the distance scale with my OVF cameras.
it's true that OVFs allow you to see much better real color and dynamic range in the midday sun, but that's a non-issue for me as i've always regarded that as the worst possible time for photography (obviously this is highly dependent on the photos you want to take).
p.4 #6 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
sebboh wrote:
what is it that you guys think makes OVFs better in low light? i've shot optical finders for years and still use ones in film cameras that far surpass any in a modern dslr's. the evf in my a7 is much better than any OVF i've ever used for low light focusing and allows easy focus long after i'd be totally reliant on the distance scale with my OVF cameras.
it's true that OVFs allow you to see much better real color and dynamic range in the midday sun, but that's a non-issue for me as i've always regarded that as the worst possible time for photography (obviously this is highly dependent on the photos you want to take).
Low light is only time I prefer EVF, I meant real low light that I have hard time to see focus. Other than that, I always prefer OVF especially for taking picture of my kids. For most stuff, it is not really mattered to me, both will work.
I can hardly imagine you prefer EVF to even old day SLR's OVF to do manual focus. Those film camera's OVF is so beautiful to look through. Latest Canikon not so impressive anymore. I put DK17 on my D700 and DF so that make them X84 and also replace screen wih matt but still not as bright as old film camera, Leica S's OVF is so beautiful that I don't want shoot anything other than that. I wish they have S noctilux to let me put on.
General speaking, I feel both will work for me. (even EVF is not there yet but for sure will be) I just prefer OVF, I need that expereince which is REAL connection between me and world before capture. I will always choose it if I have choice.
p.4 #7 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
zhangyue wrote:
I can hardly imagine you prefer EVF to even old day SLR's OVF to do manual focus. Those film camera's OVF is so beautiful to look through. Latest Canikon not so impressive anymore.
I agree. If I could design my own camera it would combine modern digital imaging with the Leicaflex SL's viewfinder. A modern CaNikon OVF, meh.
p.4 #8 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
Unless CaNikon significantly improve the DSLR OVF, it's a dead end.
For manual focusing the EVF offers a ~10x magnifier, which you won't get with an OVF in a DSLR. That and focus peaking and low light focusing ability sealed the deal for me. I no longer own a DSLR.
Not even the Nikon D4 or the Canon EOS 1DX can touch the 0.9x viewfinder magnification of the forty year old Olympus OM-1.
The only workable OVF nowadays is that in a Leica rangefinder. It can, when well calibrated, actually be used for precise focusing, at least for 50mm and shorter lenses. With the magnifiers it ain't bad with longer lenses either.
p.4 #9 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
zhangyue wrote:
Low light is only time I prefer EVF, I meant real low light that I have hard time to see focus. Other than that, I always prefer OVF especially for taking picture of my kids. For most stuff, it is not really mattered to me, both will work.
I can hardly imagine you prefer EVF to even old day SLR's OVF to do manual focus. Those film camera's OVF is so beautiful to look through. Latest Canikon not so impressive anymore. I put DK17 on my D700 and DF so that make them X84 and also replace screen wih matt but still not as bright as old film camera, Leica S's OVF is so beautiful that I don't want shoot anything other than that. I wish they have S noctilux to let me put on.
General speaking, I feel both will work for me. (even EVF is not there yet but for sure will be) I just prefer OVF, I need that expereince which is REAL connection between me and world before capture. I will always choose it if I have choice. ...Show more →
i actually do prefer evfs to my film slr's OVFs at aperture faster than f/2 (where the evf does a better job of showing the real dof). despite film OVFs doing a much better job of showing real dof than modern focus screens, they're still not as good as an evf. from f/2 on i prefer the look of a real OVF, but the evf still has too many other advantages for me to choose the OVF.
i'd love to try out the leica S's OVF, but that is a camera i could never justify due to the size and price combo... (maybe i will rent one sometime for a photo trip)...
p.4 #10 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
chez wrote:
Like I said in a previous post, mirrorless has taken away 25% of sales from canon/Nikon which is very substantial. If you are running a business and something came in and took 25% of your sales one year, you had better pay attention to it.
How are you deriving a direct cause and effect showing 25% has been taken from
canon/Nikon? Sounds like you are deliberately misinterpreting the numbers, which are an unfortunate mix of USA and global stats.
p.4 #11 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
bjornthun wrote:
Unless CaNikon significantly improve the DSLR OVF, it's a dead end.
For manual focusing the EVF offers a ~10x magnifier, which you won't get with an OVF in a DSLR. That and focus peaking and low light focusing ability sealed the deal for me. I no longer own a DSLR.
Not even the Nikon D4 or the Canon EOS 1DX can touch the 0.9x viewfinder magnification of the forty year old Olympus OM-1.
The only workable OVF nowadays is that in a Leica rangefinder. It can, when well calibrated, actually be used for precise focusing, at least for 50mm and shorter lenses. With the magnifiers it ain't bad with longer lenses either....Show more →
My transition was sealed by precisely your spot-on sentiments above.
Frankly, CaNikon has lost so much good will, market share and time that I don't see them ever regaining any ground, even if they suddenly appear with cutting-edge EVF models. I prefer B&W and a Leica Monochrom v.1 is unique, lightweight and (relatively) affordable now. Not going back to dragging 10 kg of gear for a day's outing, nor squandering money on price-inflated but inferior CaNikon OEM optics. (Viva Sigma!)
p.4 #12 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
chez wrote:
But when the EVF is fast enough that you can't tell the difference, then it is basically the speed of light. TV for my purpose is realtime enough...
It all depends what you use it for. As long as I have options, I wouldn't pick any of the EVF based cameras on today's market to shoot basketball game, even they are capable from the other aspects (focus tracking and so on). There is no one little thing that would make me to think that it makes it better than OVF. I tried Olympus, Fuji and Sony A7II so far. I can't comment on Sony A7RII, I haven't touched yet. I don't care what info that little screen shows up when I'm shooting action. I would adjust my parameters at the beginning of the game, and I keep hunting special moments. I could delete everything from that screen during those moments. Do I care about manual focusing and focus picking for this kind shooting, not at all. I think people celebrated a lot when first AF lenses came out, especially action shooting photographers. The other situation, where I wasn't happy with EVF, is being outside on a bright sunny day, people already mentioned that. All I'm saying is, it's nice to have them both, I would be very happy to be able to buy a solid pro-body camera with a hybrid VF, optical and electronic, selectable. Is it gonna happen, not sure.
p.4 #13 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
I would like to have/see a hybrid viewfinder in a dslr. If the mirror is down it has a optical viewfinder, if the mirror is up the lcd screen just above the focussing screen (quite a few dslr's have a lcd there) shows the sensor output => electronic viewfinder.
p.4 #14 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
cvrle59 wrote:
It all depends what you use it for. As long as have options, I wouldn't pick any of the EVF based cameras on today's market to shoot basketball game, even they are capable from the other aspects (focus tracking and so on). There is no one little thing that would make me to think that it makes it better than OVF. I tried Olympus, Fuji and Sony A7II so far. I can't comment on Sony A7RII, I haven't touched yet. I don't care what info that little screen shows up when I'm shooting action. I would adjust my parameters at the beginning of the game, and I keep hunting special moments. I could delete everything from that screen during those moments. The other situation where I wasn't happy with EVF is, being outside on a bright sunny day, people already mentioned that. All I'm saying is, it's nice to have them both, I would be very happy to be able to buy a solid pro-body camera with a hybrid VF, optical and electronic, selectable. Is it gonna happen, not sure.
...Show more →
Why do you refer to EVFs as little screens, when in fact modern EVFs provide around 0.74-0.78x viewfinder magnification? Nikon OVFs are at 0.71x. Canon 1DX is at 0.75, if I recall correctly. The OVFs of the APS-C/DX DSLRs are all even smaller. The Sony A7R 2 is at 0.78x and Olympus OM-D E-M1 is 0.74x.
p.4 #15 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
U.C. wrote:
I would like to have/see a hybrid viewfinder in a dslr. If the mirror is down it has a optical viewfinder, if the mirror is up the lcd screen just above the focussing screen (quite a few dslr's have a lcd there) shows the sensor output => electronic viewfinder.
+1
Nasim Mansurov went little farther in his imagination of that kind of set up. Who knows, we may see it one day. https://photographylife.com/transitional-dslr-with-evf-capability
p.4 #16 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
U.C. wrote:
I would like to have/see a hybrid viewfinder in a dslr. If the mirror is down it has a optical viewfinder, if the mirror is up the lcd screen just above the focussing screen (quite a few dslr's have a lcd there) shows the sensor output => electronic viewfinder.
This will probably be expensive to implement, but we'll see.
p.4 #17 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
bjornthun wrote:
Why do you refer to EVFs as little screens, when in fact modern EVFs provide around 0.74-0.78x viewfinder magnification? Nikon OVFs are at 0.71x. Canon 1DX is at 0.75, if I recall correctly. The OVFs of the APS-C/DX DSLRs are all even smaller. The Sony A7R 2 is at 0.78x and Olympus OM-D E-M1 is 0.74x.
I'm sorry, but saying "little screen" didn't have anything to do in comparison with OVF, just in general, compared to computer monitor, to tv's to camera back screen and so on. I like EVF, fortunately it is here on all kinds of mirrorless cameras, my point again is, there are situations that OVF is just better.
p.4 #18 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
chez wrote:
No, but they have eaten into 25% of traditional camera sales...a 25% both Canon and Nikon would dearly love to have today.
Nikon and Canon also make mirrorless systems which also are a part of the 25% that you mention. So they didn't loose that complete percentage. And it is not clear to me if 25% is correct btw.
p.4 #19 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
cvrle59 wrote:
Nasim Mansurov went little farther in his imagination of that kind of set up. Who knows, we may see it one day. https://photographylife.com/transitional-dslr-with-evf-capability
The OLED shines light under a different angle than the normal through the lens light. I don't know how they can make that work.
p.4 #20 · CaNikon will have to enter the mirrorless market.....
U.C. wrote:
The OLED shines light under a different angle than the normal through the lens light. I don't know how they can make that work.
It's just an idea, not a solution.
