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Archive 2015Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
p.10 #1Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
it appears that Zeiss decided to remove the dreamy effect at 1.4 on 50/1.4 milvus. or maybe because there are no background details involved?
check here.
http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/zeiss_milvus_50mm_f1_4_photos/
Sep 12, 2015 at 09:21 AM
p.10 #2Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
bushwacker wrote:
it appears that Zeiss decided to remove the dreamy effect at 1.4 on 50/1.4 milvus. or maybe because there are no background details involved?
check here.
http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/zeiss_milvus_50mm_f1_4_photos/
Wow, Zeiss did definitely leave "color correction" to Otus-only. For example on this photo the curve on wall in background glows green no matter how small the image is resized, and when looking close (e.g. her right hand, underneath) there is very strong "defocus color fringing" (terminology from Toothwalker's post from last page), and strings in the instrument glow red when not in focus. When these things happen in boke, there is no way of correcting it in post processing. The f/5.6 samples looked much better.
Hopefully they come usable on larger aperture than ZE/ZF/CY 1.4/50. Having this large lens and still limited shooting f/2.8 doesn't get me interested, but if it's improved so that f/2.2 becomes usable it might become interesting.
Hopefully there will be samples, in which really usable apertures like f/2 and f/2.8 are used. I just don't see the any point shooting 99% lenses wide open, as the improvements closing down even one stop are usually gigantic.
Samuli
it appears that Zeiss decided to remove the dreamy effect at 1.4 on 50/1.4 milvus. or maybe because there are no background details involved?
check here.
http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/zeiss_milvus_50mm_f1_4_photos/
Wow, Zeiss did definitely leave "color correction" to Otus-only. For example on this photo the curve on wall in background glows green no matter how small the image is resized, and when looking close (e.g. her right hand, underneath) there is very strong "defocus color fringing" (terminology from Toothwalker's post from last page), and strings in the instrument glow red when not in focus. When these things happen in boke, there is no way of correcting it in post processing. The f/5.6 samples looked much better.
Hopefully they come usable on larger aperture than ZE/ZF/CY 1.4/50. Having this large lens and still limited shooting f/2.8 doesn't get me interested, but if it's improved so that f/2.2 becomes usable it might become interesting.
Hopefully there will be samples, in which really usable apertures like f/2 and f/2.8 are used. I just don't see the any point shooting 99% lenses wide open, as the improvements closing down even one stop are usually gigantic.
Samuli
Sep 12, 2015 at 09:44 AM
p.10 #3Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Tariq Gibran wrote:
I think Sony comes out looking worse after this announcement from Zeiss. The clear signal to the market is that if you want the very best, no-compromise Zeiss glass - and the broadest Zeiss lens line - it will continue to be designed natively for Canon and Nikon, not Sony. Mirrorless lenses from Zeiss will be a compromise by comparison - slower lenses with digital correction of distortion required in order to keep the weight down for the smaller mirrorless bodies. Sure, one can mount these lenses on Sony but ultimately I see this move as Zeiss throwing it's...Show more →
I don't agree with this at all. There were only two new lens designs here, the 50 and 85. And these will have to compete with the FE 55/1.8 and Batis 85, both superb lenses. Sounds like you've never used these? Not to mention they are much smaller and lighter and have AF. And as for all the other "very best, no compromise Zeiss glass" in the Milvus line, those are just repackaged lenses that had been available for a decade or so. Some still don't have a counterpart for Sony (like 21), but that won't be for long, while others already have trouble to compete with Zeiss for Sony like the 35/1.4. It's perhaps rather a "clear signal to the market" that old, repackaged tech is ok for the DSLR line...
I think Sony comes out looking worse after this announcement from Zeiss. The clear signal to the market is that if you want the very best, no-compromise Zeiss glass - and the broadest Zeiss lens line - it will continue to be designed natively for Canon and Nikon, not Sony. Mirrorless lenses from Zeiss will be a compromise by comparison - slower lenses with digital correction of distortion required in order to keep the weight down for the smaller mirrorless bodies. Sure, one can mount these lenses on Sony but ultimately I see this move as Zeiss throwing it's...Show more →
I don't agree with this at all. There were only two new lens designs here, the 50 and 85. And these will have to compete with the FE 55/1.8 and Batis 85, both superb lenses. Sounds like you've never used these? Not to mention they are much smaller and lighter and have AF. And as for all the other "very best, no compromise Zeiss glass" in the Milvus line, those are just repackaged lenses that had been available for a decade or so. Some still don't have a counterpart for Sony (like 21), but that won't be for long, while others already have trouble to compete with Zeiss for Sony like the 35/1.4. It's perhaps rather a "clear signal to the market" that old, repackaged tech is ok for the DSLR line...
Sep 12, 2015 at 10:02 AM
p.10 #4Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Tariq Gibran wrote:
I think Sony comes out looking worse after this announcement from Zeiss...
I think you are looking way to deep into this announcement.
Look, they honestly did nothing new. Repackaged the aging line of lenses
to give their marketing team a subject of some new PR.
Maybe the 50 and 85 are "new", but I'm not buying this.
They are all the same lenses.
So no gain, no loss comparing to 3 days ago
I think Sony comes out looking worse after this announcement from Zeiss...
I think you are looking way to deep into this announcement.
Look, they honestly did nothing new. Repackaged the aging line of lenses
to give their marketing team a subject of some new PR.
Maybe the 50 and 85 are "new", but I'm not buying this.
They are all the same lenses.
So no gain, no loss comparing to 3 days ago
Sep 12, 2015 at 10:25 AM
p.10 #5Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Thorsten wrote:
I don't agree with this at all. There were only two new lens designs here, the 50 and 85. And these will have to compete with the FE 55/1.8 and Batis 85, both superb lenses. Sounds like you've never used these? Not to mention they are much smaller and lighter and have AF. And as for all the other "very best, no compromise Zeiss glass" in the Milvus line, those are just repackaged lenses that had been available for a decade or so. Some still don't have a counterpart for Sony (like 21), but that won't be for long, while...Show more →
The Batis are much smaller and lighter, which is obviously better matched for a lighter Sony mirrorless system than these newer lenses. Compare the Batis 85 to this new Milvus 85/1.4 and I think you have your answer though with regard to which is a no compromise - weight be damned - optical design and lens. The Batis is a little slower, has a lot of native distortion (for a moderate tele design) and is AF (and it was Zeiss who have previously stated that AF lenses are a compromise optically by design as compared to the best achieved with manual focus designs). This is just how it appears to me - and I don't see myself as buying any of the new Milvus lenses. I think as we go over 50MP's with forthcoming, super high MP options, it will be the best of the Milvus lenses that folks who need the IQ go for - the replacement to the MF systems ala Otus. Zeiss have also demonstrated that they will be completely updating the line optically over time with that 50 and 85. Compare that to the sad Loxia's...
Tariq Gibran wrote
I think Sony comes out looking worse after this announcement from Zeiss. The clear signal to the market is that if you want the very best, no-compromise Zeiss glass - and the broadest Zeiss lens line - it will continue to be designed natively for Canon and Nikon, not Sony. Mirrorless lenses from Zeiss will be a compromise by comparison - slower lenses with digital correction of distortion required in order to keep the weight down for the smaller mirrorless bodies. Sure, one can mount these lenses on Sony but ultimately I see this move as Zeiss throwing it's weight behind CaNikon (and maybe even acknowledging/ reinforcing CaNikon's 1/2 market position now and in the future).The Batis are much smaller and lighter, which is obviously better matched for a lighter Sony mirrorless system than these newer lenses. Compare the Batis 85 to this new Milvus 85/1.4 and I think you have your answer though with regard to which is a no compromise - weight be damned - optical design and lens. The Batis is a little slower, has a lot of native distortion (for a moderate tele design) and is AF (and it was Zeiss who have previously stated that AF lenses are a compromise optically by design as compared to the best achieved with manual focus designs). This is just how it appears to me - and I don't see myself as buying any of the new Milvus lenses. I think as we go over 50MP's with forthcoming, super high MP options, it will be the best of the Milvus lenses that folks who need the IQ go for - the replacement to the MF systems ala Otus. Zeiss have also demonstrated that they will be completely updating the line optically over time with that 50 and 85. Compare that to the sad Loxia's...
Sep 12, 2015 at 10:30 AM
p.10 #6Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
snowboarder wrote:
I think you are looking way to deep into this announcement.
Look, they honestly did nothing new. Repackaged the aging line of lenses
to give their marketing team a subject of some new PR.
Maybe the 50 and 85 are "new", but I'm not buying this.
They are all the same lenses.
So no gain, no loss comparing to 3 days ago
You are not "buying" that the 50 and 85 are completely new optical designs? These appears to be a huge gain (IQ/ optically) compared to the previous versions. "They are all the same lenses" makes no sense in the context of these two.
Tariq Gibran wrote
I think Sony comes out looking worse after this announcement from Zeiss...Look, they honestly did nothing new. Repackaged the aging line of lenses
to give their marketing team a subject of some new PR.
Maybe the 50 and 85 are "new", but I'm not buying this.
They are all the same lenses.
So no gain, no loss comparing to 3 days ago
You are not "buying" that the 50 and 85 are completely new optical designs? These appears to be a huge gain (IQ/ optically) compared to the previous versions. "They are all the same lenses" makes no sense in the context of these two.
Sep 12, 2015 at 10:32 AM
p.10 #7Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Samuli Vahonen wrote:
Hopefully there will be samples, in which really usable apertures like f/2 and f/2.8 are used. I just don't see the any point shooting 99% lenses wide open, as the improvements closing down even one stop are usually gigantic.
Samuli
here's another... based on the 2nd image from left [ man's portrait ]... you can shoot shorter distance to subject., wide open.
https://www.ephotozine.com/article/zeiss-milvus-50mm-f-1-4-sample-photos-28118
Hopefully there will be samples, in which really usable apertures like f/2 and f/2.8 are used. I just don't see the any point shooting 99% lenses wide open, as the improvements closing down even one stop are usually gigantic.
Samuli
here's another... based on the 2nd image from left [ man's portrait ]... you can shoot shorter distance to subject., wide open.
https://www.ephotozine.com/article/zeiss-milvus-50mm-f-1-4-sample-photos-28118
Sep 12, 2015 at 10:41 AM
p.10 #8Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
The Milvus 50/1.4 and 85/1.4 are the only two Zeiss lenses that are new designs optically. The other four are repackaged lenses from the old ZE/ZF.2 line.
Sony does not look bad at all with this. The Batis lenses have got great reviews and are excellent quality. AF tech may have progressed to a point where Zeiss no longer deems it to be a compromise.
Regarding distortion the Milvus 85/1.4 has about 0.5% and the 50/1.4 as much as -1.5%
The MTFs for both the Batis 85/1.8 and Milvus 85/1.4 are excellent.
Sony does not look bad at all with this. The Batis lenses have got great reviews and are excellent quality. AF tech may have progressed to a point where Zeiss no longer deems it to be a compromise.
Regarding distortion the Milvus 85/1.4 has about 0.5% and the 50/1.4 as much as -1.5%
The MTFs for both the Batis 85/1.8 and Milvus 85/1.4 are excellent.
Sep 12, 2015 at 10:46 AM
p.10 #9Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Tariq Gibran wrote:
I don't agree with this at all. There were only two new lens designs here, the 50 and 85. And these will have to compete with the FE 55/1.8 and Batis 85, both superb lenses. Sounds like you've never used these? Not to mention they are much smaller and lighter and have AF. And as for all the other "very best, no compromise Zeiss glass" in the Milvus line, those are just repackaged lenses that had been available for a decade or so. Some still don't have a counterpart for Sony (like 21), but that won't be for long, while others already have trouble to compete with Zeiss for Sony like the 35/1.4. It's perhaps rather a "clear signal to the market" that old, repackaged tech is ok for the DSLR line...The Batis are much smaller and lighter, which is obviously better matched for a lighter Sony mirrorless system than these newer lenses. Compare the Batis 85 to this new Milvus 85/1.4 and I think you have your answer though with regard to which is a no compromise - weight be damned - optical design and lens. The Batis is a little slower, has a lot of native distortion (for a moderate tele design) and is AF (and it was Zeiss who have previously stated that AF lenses are a compromise optically by design as compared to the best achieved...Show more →
I agree that with a large physical design (i.e. Otus or ZE 135/2), you can usually put a better optical design in place. Also you can use all these lenses on both DSLRs as well as mirrorless cameras (if one is inclined to carry the weight around), so it sure makes sense for Zeiss to continue to develop that line. On the slip side, the lack of the mirror and the shorter flange distance in mirrorless cameras allows lens designs with a much higher ratio of IQ over weight than were possible on a DSLR. And I don't buy the argument that AF requires a compromise in optical design, probably some marketing folks came up with it. I.e. the Zeiss FE 55/1.8 and 35/1.4 have AF but I can't imagine any better IQ.
Thorsten wrote
Tariq Gibran wrote
I think Sony comes out looking worse after this announcement from Zeiss. The clear signal to the market is that if you want the very best, no-compromise Zeiss glass - and the broadest Zeiss lens line - it will continue to be designed natively for Canon and Nikon, not Sony. Mirrorless lenses from Zeiss will be a compromise by comparison - slower lenses with digital correction of distortion required in order to keep the weight down for the smaller mirrorless bodies. Sure, one can mount these lenses on Sony but ultimately I see this move as Zeiss throwing it's weight behind CaNikon (and maybe even acknowledging/ reinforcing CaNikon's 1/2 market position now and in the future).I agree that with a large physical design (i.e. Otus or ZE 135/2), you can usually put a better optical design in place. Also you can use all these lenses on both DSLRs as well as mirrorless cameras (if one is inclined to carry the weight around), so it sure makes sense for Zeiss to continue to develop that line. On the slip side, the lack of the mirror and the shorter flange distance in mirrorless cameras allows lens designs with a much higher ratio of IQ over weight than were possible on a DSLR. And I don't buy the argument that AF requires a compromise in optical design, probably some marketing folks came up with it. I.e. the Zeiss FE 55/1.8 and 35/1.4 have AF but I can't imagine any better IQ.
Sep 12, 2015 at 10:48 AM
p.10 #10Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
I think the new milvus line is part of a long term strategy from Zeiss, not meant to be anything sensational or groundbreaking. The classic line will be probably phased out sometime in the future. The old designs are still very good even on high mp sensors.
Sep 12, 2015 at 10:52 AM
p.10 #11Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
snowboarder wrote:
Maybe the 50 and 85 are "new", but I'm not buying this.
They are all the same lenses.
So no gain, no loss comparing to 3 days ago
all new milvus lenses except the 50/1.4 and 85/1.4 have the same MTF curves.
milvus 50/1.4 is distagon, different from 50/1.4 Planar classic.
milvu 85/1.4 is Planar which zeiss says "newly redesigned" so it's not your usual 85/1.4 planar classic lens with different chassis.
That's the reason why Zeiss still have both Classic 50/1.4 and 85/1.4 in their site. 21,35/2,50/2 & 100/2 not there anymore.
Maybe the 50 and 85 are "new", but I'm not buying this.
They are all the same lenses.
So no gain, no loss comparing to 3 days ago
all new milvus lenses except the 50/1.4 and 85/1.4 have the same MTF curves.
milvus 50/1.4 is distagon, different from 50/1.4 Planar classic.
milvu 85/1.4 is Planar which zeiss says "newly redesigned" so it's not your usual 85/1.4 planar classic lens with different chassis.
That's the reason why Zeiss still have both Classic 50/1.4 and 85/1.4 in their site. 21,35/2,50/2 & 100/2 not there anymore.
Sep 12, 2015 at 10:57 AM
p.10 #12Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
bushwacker wrote:
here's another... based on the 2nd image from left [ man's portrait ]... you can shoot shorter distance to subject., wide open.
https://www.ephotozine.com/article/zeiss-milvus-50mm-f-1-4-sample-photos-28118
It seems that it's slightly better corrected for close-ups what comes to "defocus color fringe". On the other set of samples in photographyblog.com the only close-up shows less "defocus color fringe" than "normal" distance photos. However either of these sets doesn't contain large contrasts edges on boke (and the ones there are green), so they hide the issue little as well. Thou photo of white text on white background does seem to have almost no "defocus color fringe".
Samuli
here's another... based on the 2nd image from left [ man's portrait ]... you can shoot shorter distance to subject., wide open.
https://www.ephotozine.com/article/zeiss-milvus-50mm-f-1-4-sample-photos-28118
It seems that it's slightly better corrected for close-ups what comes to "defocus color fringe". On the other set of samples in photographyblog.com the only close-up shows less "defocus color fringe" than "normal" distance photos. However either of these sets doesn't contain large contrasts edges on boke (and the ones there are green), so they hide the issue little as well. Thou photo of white text on white background does seem to have almost no "defocus color fringe".
Samuli
Sep 12, 2015 at 10:59 AM
p.10 #13Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Whereas Sony wants to climb rapidly, so I would imagine they'd freely share their AF tech with Zeiss in order for Zeiss to make AF lenses for their mounts. Everybody wins, basically. Except CaNikon.Sony gains something, but Zeiss would stand to gain the most by selling the most lenses overall to everyone, Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. The proprietary AF of Nikon and Canon benefit Nikon and Canon by making it more difficult for 3rd parties to AF, so more Nikon and Canon lenses are likely to be sold. I suspect Canon and Nikon are more concerned about challenging the high volume, lower cost, 3rd party lenses than the low volume, expensive Zeiss lenses.
EBHI think Sony comes out looking worse after this announcement from Zeiss. The clear signal to the market is that if you want the very best, no-compromise Zeiss glass - and the broadest Zeiss lens line - it will continue to be designed natively for Canon and Nikon, not Sony. Mirrorless lenses from Zeiss will be a compromise by comparison - slower lenses with digital correction of distortion required in order to keep the weight down for the smaller mirrorless bodies. Sure, one can mount these lenses on Sony but ultimately I see this move as Zeiss throwing it's...Show more →
I wouldn't draw this conclusion, especially until we see the how the Loxia 21 f/2.8 compares to the Milvus 21 f/2.8. I would not be surprised if the Loxia does not match the Milvus, but Iet's wait and see. The diminutive Leica 21 SEM does pretty much match the Milvus. So having the Loxia at 21mm, and the excellent Batis at 25mm is an awfully good start for Sony wide angle Zeiss lenses, and the Sony/Zeiss 35 f/1.4 is arguably the best 35mm lens available now with some really great properties. At 35mm the Sony offering is clearly not the slower less highly functioning lens. The Milvus 35 f/2 is. At 50ish, yes the new Milvus 50 f/1.4 looks great, but how would it look in a comparison against the Sony/Zeiss 55 f/1.8. I think the FE would hold its own, but I am sure we will see soon. I think it is only at 85mm, where the new Milvus looks considerably ahead of the Batis 85. So, in these common ranges I see it much more as a draw. We don't know yet at 21, but the Milvus might well win. At 25 the Batis is the best out there. At 35 the Sony/Zeiss f/1.4 is the best out there. At 50ish I think it will be quite close, and only at 85, IMO, does the Milvus clearly look better.
There is a clear sense in what you are saying is obviously true, however. If you want the very best, no compromise Zeiss lenses you want to get Otus lenses and those are only made for Canon and Nikon.
EB-1 wrote
Sam_W wrote
Well, the other thing is that Sony is the underdog that wants to get to the #2 spot. CaNikon currently occupy the #1 and #2 spots, so it's in their interest to keep everyone from making quality AF lenses that work on their bodies.Whereas Sony wants to climb rapidly, so I would imagine they'd freely share their AF tech with Zeiss in order for Zeiss to make AF lenses for their mounts. Everybody wins, basically. Except CaNikon.
EBH
I wouldn't draw this conclusion, especially until we see the how the Loxia 21 f/2.8 compares to the Milvus 21 f/2.8. I would not be surprised if the Loxia does not match the Milvus, but Iet's wait and see. The diminutive Leica 21 SEM does pretty much match the Milvus. So having the Loxia at 21mm, and the excellent Batis at 25mm is an awfully good start for Sony wide angle Zeiss lenses, and the Sony/Zeiss 35 f/1.4 is arguably the best 35mm lens available now with some really great properties. At 35mm the Sony offering is clearly not the slower less highly functioning lens. The Milvus 35 f/2 is. At 50ish, yes the new Milvus 50 f/1.4 looks great, but how would it look in a comparison against the Sony/Zeiss 55 f/1.8. I think the FE would hold its own, but I am sure we will see soon. I think it is only at 85mm, where the new Milvus looks considerably ahead of the Batis 85. So, in these common ranges I see it much more as a draw. We don't know yet at 21, but the Milvus might well win. At 25 the Batis is the best out there. At 35 the Sony/Zeiss f/1.4 is the best out there. At 50ish I think it will be quite close, and only at 85, IMO, does the Milvus clearly look better.
There is a clear sense in what you are saying is obviously true, however. If you want the very best, no compromise Zeiss lenses you want to get Otus lenses and those are only made for Canon and Nikon.
Sep 12, 2015 at 12:15 PM
p.10 #14Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
I think it's a bit difficult to say much or even guess how the Loxia 21mm will compare to other lenses. I think the Loxia 21mm may have to be a completely new design, but I don't know this, just speculating. The ZM 21/2.8 Biogon has a definite problem with smearing on stock Sony sensors, so it will be interesting to see how different from the ZM version the Loxia version will turn out to be. Anyway, I hope the Loxia 21mm will be awesome. 
Sep 12, 2015 at 12:50 PM
p.10 #15Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Steve Spencer wrote:
At 25 the Batis is the best out there. At 35 the Sony/Zeiss f/1.4 is the best out there. At 50ish I think it will be quite close, and only at 85, IMO, does the Milvus clearly look better.
There is a clear sense in what you are saying is obviously true, however. If you want the very best, no compromise Zeiss lenses you want to get Otus lenses and those are only made for Canon and Nikon.
I think if it were not for the so-so Sony quality control, the FE 35/1.4 ZA might be way up there. I do believe though if we include DSLR lenses, the Sigma Art 35/1.4 is better (at least going by reviews/ tests). It's likely, imo, that Zeiss will come out with something which attempts to one up the Sigma Art 35 optically.
The Sony FE 55/1.8 certainly is a great lens but we should not discount the slower speed (and to a lesser degree than the Sony FE 35's, even the quality control problems). It is somewhat telling imo though that there is yet a normal 1.4 offered. Makes complete sense given the weight/ size issue but also goes to my point.
The Batis 25 looks great on paper - and also gets good user reviews. I don't know where it really stands though in comparison to all the other 24/25 options. It hasn't really made it's way to the more objective (and free) review sites yet. The data sheet, for instance, is "cooked" with regard to the distortion numbers and I don't know if the listed MTF's are actually measured before that distortion correction or after (my strong suspicion is that they are measured separately and independently with the MTF representing actual optical results). I do know the faster Sigma Art 24/1.4 is very good given it's focal length having recently picked one up. I suspect it's better corrected optically and sharper than the Batis 25, even while being a stop faster, just going by the posted raws from the Batis 25 + A7rII here:
http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/sony_a7r_ii_zeiss_batis_25mm_photos/
At 25 the Batis is the best out there. At 35 the Sony/Zeiss f/1.4 is the best out there. At 50ish I think it will be quite close, and only at 85, IMO, does the Milvus clearly look better.
There is a clear sense in what you are saying is obviously true, however. If you want the very best, no compromise Zeiss lenses you want to get Otus lenses and those are only made for Canon and Nikon.
I think if it were not for the so-so Sony quality control, the FE 35/1.4 ZA might be way up there. I do believe though if we include DSLR lenses, the Sigma Art 35/1.4 is better (at least going by reviews/ tests). It's likely, imo, that Zeiss will come out with something which attempts to one up the Sigma Art 35 optically.
The Sony FE 55/1.8 certainly is a great lens but we should not discount the slower speed (and to a lesser degree than the Sony FE 35's, even the quality control problems). It is somewhat telling imo though that there is yet a normal 1.4 offered. Makes complete sense given the weight/ size issue but also goes to my point.
The Batis 25 looks great on paper - and also gets good user reviews. I don't know where it really stands though in comparison to all the other 24/25 options. It hasn't really made it's way to the more objective (and free) review sites yet. The data sheet, for instance, is "cooked" with regard to the distortion numbers and I don't know if the listed MTF's are actually measured before that distortion correction or after (my strong suspicion is that they are measured separately and independently with the MTF representing actual optical results). I do know the faster Sigma Art 24/1.4 is very good given it's focal length having recently picked one up. I suspect it's better corrected optically and sharper than the Batis 25, even while being a stop faster, just going by the posted raws from the Batis 25 + A7rII here:
http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/sony_a7r_ii_zeiss_batis_25mm_photos/
Sep 12, 2015 at 01:25 PM
p.10 #16Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Tariq Gibran wrote:
There is a clear sense in what you are saying is obviously true, however. If you want the very best, no compromise Zeiss lenses you want to get Otus lenses and those are only made for Canon and Nikon.I think if it were not for the so-so Sony quality control, the FE 35/1.4 ZA might be way up there. I do believe though if we include DSLR lenses, the Sigma Art 35/1.4 is better (at least going by reviews/ tests). It's likely, imo, that Zeiss will come out with something which attempts to one up the Sigma Art 35 optically.
The Sony FE 55/1.8 certainly is a great lens but we should not discount the slower speed (and to a lesser degree than the Sony FE 35's, even the quality control problems). It is somewhat telling imo...Show more →
Well the Batis 25 has relatively mild distortion even without correction, so the correction won't effect its MTF much. I do believe it is better on balance than the other 24/25s available and it has very nice bokeh. The Sony/Zeiss 35 f/1.4 might not have quite have the resolution of the Sigma Art 35 f/1.4, but IMO it has much much better bokeh. So, on balance I think it is a considerably better lens. That includes some subjective elements of course. With regard to quality control I know there are anecdotes about Sony/Zeiss quality control, but there isn't any data that I have seen. Lens rental has some really useful tests in this regard but unfortunately they don't test E mount lenses. Until they do, I have some doubts that Sony/Zeiss really has worse quality control than Sigma. So, I still don't see any clear evidence that Sony is behind in lenses available. I stick with my previous take. It is mixed with sometime Sony having an advantage and sometimes Canon/Nikon having an advantage and that is including the new Milvus lenses as available for Canon/Nikon.
Steve Spencer wrote
At 25 the Batis is the best out there. At 35 the Sony/Zeiss f/1.4 is the best out there. At 50ish I think it will be quite close, and only at 85, IMO, does the Milvus clearly look better.There is a clear sense in what you are saying is obviously true, however. If you want the very best, no compromise Zeiss lenses you want to get Otus lenses and those are only made for Canon and Nikon.
The Sony FE 55/1.8 certainly is a great lens but we should not discount the slower speed (and to a lesser degree than the Sony FE 35's, even the quality control problems). It is somewhat telling imo...Show more →
Well the Batis 25 has relatively mild distortion even without correction, so the correction won't effect its MTF much. I do believe it is better on balance than the other 24/25s available and it has very nice bokeh. The Sony/Zeiss 35 f/1.4 might not have quite have the resolution of the Sigma Art 35 f/1.4, but IMO it has much much better bokeh. So, on balance I think it is a considerably better lens. That includes some subjective elements of course. With regard to quality control I know there are anecdotes about Sony/Zeiss quality control, but there isn't any data that I have seen. Lens rental has some really useful tests in this regard but unfortunately they don't test E mount lenses. Until they do, I have some doubts that Sony/Zeiss really has worse quality control than Sigma. So, I still don't see any clear evidence that Sony is behind in lenses available. I stick with my previous take. It is mixed with sometime Sony having an advantage and sometimes Canon/Nikon having an advantage and that is including the new Milvus lenses as available for Canon/Nikon.
Sep 12, 2015 at 01:53 PM
p.10 #17Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Steve Spencer wrote:
There is a clear sense in what you are saying is obviously true, however. If you want the very best, no compromise Zeiss lenses you want to get Otus lenses and those are only made for Canon and Nikon.I think if it were not for the so-so Sony quality control, the FE 35/1.4 ZA might be way up there. I do believe though if we include DSLR lenses, the Sigma Art 35/1.4 is better (at least going by reviews/ tests). It's likely, imo, that Zeiss will come out with something which attempts to one up the Sigma Art 35 optically.
The Sony FE 55/1.8 certainly is a great lens but we should not discount the slower speed (and to a lesser degree than the Sony FE 35's, even the quality control problems). It is somewhat telling imo though that there is yet a normal 1.4 offered. Makes complete sense given the weight/ size issue but also goes to my point.
The Batis 25 looks great on paper - and also gets good user reviews. I don't know where it really stands though in comparison to all the other 24/25 options. It hasn't really made it's way to the more objective (and free) review sites yet. The data sheet, for instance, is "cooked" with regard to the distortion numbers and I don't know if the listed MTF's are actually measured before that distortion correction or after (my strong suspicion is that they are measured separately and independently with the MTF representing actual optical results). I do know the faster Sigma Art 24/1.4 is very good given it's focal length having recently picked one up. I suspect it's better corrected optically and sharper than the Batis 25, even while being a stop faster, just going by the posted raws from the Batis 25 + A7rII here:
http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/sony_a7r_ii_zeiss_batis_25mm_photos/Well the Batis 25 has relatively mild distortion even without correction, so the correction won't effect its MTF much. I do believe it is better on balance than the other 24/25s available and it has very nice bokeh. The Sony/Zeiss 35 f/1.4 might not have quite have the resolution of the Sigma Art 35 f/1.4, but IMO it has much much better bokeh. So, on balance I think it is a considerably better lens. That includes some subjective elements of course. With regard to quality control I know there are anecdotes about Sony/Zeiss quality control, but there isn't any...Show more →
Fair enough. Beyond the anecdotal reports about current Sony ZA quality control we read here, Digilloyd, etc. I also probably have a negative view based on my own experience. Back when the A-mount ZA 24/2 was introduced, I was unable to get a non-decentered copy after multiple attempts - I'm a bit gun shy now of any higher priced, Sony lenses. This is mostly due to quality control but I also have my doubts about build quality (based on Roger's teardowns) and getting locked into a proprietary lens system from Sony overall (seeing what they have done with the A-system). My recent Sigma experience has been much better. Roger has tested multiple copies of more recent Sigma Art offerings and, on the whole, I believe Sigma has proven to be much better than the Sigma of old. I would love to see some Sony results from him.
Tariq Gibran wrote
Steve Spencer wrote
At 25 the Batis is the best out there. At 35 the Sony/Zeiss f/1.4 is the best out there. At 50ish I think it will be quite close, and only at 85, IMO, does the Milvus clearly look better.There is a clear sense in what you are saying is obviously true, however. If you want the very best, no compromise Zeiss lenses you want to get Otus lenses and those are only made for Canon and Nikon.
The Sony FE 55/1.8 certainly is a great lens but we should not discount the slower speed (and to a lesser degree than the Sony FE 35's, even the quality control problems). It is somewhat telling imo though that there is yet a normal 1.4 offered. Makes complete sense given the weight/ size issue but also goes to my point.
The Batis 25 looks great on paper - and also gets good user reviews. I don't know where it really stands though in comparison to all the other 24/25 options. It hasn't really made it's way to the more objective (and free) review sites yet. The data sheet, for instance, is "cooked" with regard to the distortion numbers and I don't know if the listed MTF's are actually measured before that distortion correction or after (my strong suspicion is that they are measured separately and independently with the MTF representing actual optical results). I do know the faster Sigma Art 24/1.4 is very good given it's focal length having recently picked one up. I suspect it's better corrected optically and sharper than the Batis 25, even while being a stop faster, just going by the posted raws from the Batis 25 + A7rII here:
http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/sony_a7r_ii_zeiss_batis_25mm_photos/
Fair enough. Beyond the anecdotal reports about current Sony ZA quality control we read here, Digilloyd, etc. I also probably have a negative view based on my own experience. Back when the A-mount ZA 24/2 was introduced, I was unable to get a non-decentered copy after multiple attempts - I'm a bit gun shy now of any higher priced, Sony lenses. This is mostly due to quality control but I also have my doubts about build quality (based on Roger's teardowns) and getting locked into a proprietary lens system from Sony overall (seeing what they have done with the A-system). My recent Sigma experience has been much better. Roger has tested multiple copies of more recent Sigma Art offerings and, on the whole, I believe Sigma has proven to be much better than the Sigma of old. I would love to see some Sony results from him.
Sep 12, 2015 at 02:05 PM
p.10 #18Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Lee Saxon wrote:
It's still pretty crazy, though, how many times some of these C/Y designs have been rehoused now.
Toothwalker wrote:
So far there is only 1 Milvus that stems from a Y/C design.
Yes but several C/Y designs have already been rehoused as ZF/ZK/ZS/etc, then ZF.2/ZE adds electronic coupling, then CP cine, then CP.2 cine adds interchangeable mounts, then CP.2 SuperSpeed which was a Leica-Lenny-Kravitz-edition-level scam. That's already pretty crazy even if they don't make the cut for Milvus. And remember they did pretty much the same thing with the ZM>Loxia (or so it's rumored).
And I'm wondering which other C/Y lenses might make the cut. We already know the 50/1.4 and 85/1.4 were replaced, Lloyd Chambers writes that the 25/2.8 is discontinued (note he didn't say "replaced," hmmmm). I bet the 35/1.4 is out since we already got the newer 35/2. From the ZF set I'm betting we get just the 28/2 which despite not being a technical superstar is beloved for its certain character. And remember, C/Y lenses which never joined the ZF roster aren't necessarily off limits - personally I would suggest the 200/2 APO since the ZF never went telephoto enough for me and the 45/2.8 pancake since the new 50/1.4 is ginormous.
Thinking about that brings up another thought: they had to compromise to get 6 lenses ready for this launch. The 21/2.8 is probably good enough not to need an update (though I'd like one), but the 35/2 isn't really at that level (especially compared to the new 50 & 85) and even the 100/2 could've used some tweaks. I suspect they heard all the complaining about the size of the Touit, Loxia, Batis, and Otus line-ups and decided they couldn't release another 2-3 lens series.
It's still pretty crazy, though, how many times some of these C/Y designs have been rehoused now.
Toothwalker wrote:
So far there is only 1 Milvus that stems from a Y/C design.
Yes but several C/Y designs have already been rehoused as ZF/ZK/ZS/etc, then ZF.2/ZE adds electronic coupling, then CP cine, then CP.2 cine adds interchangeable mounts, then CP.2 SuperSpeed which was a Leica-Lenny-Kravitz-edition-level scam. That's already pretty crazy even if they don't make the cut for Milvus. And remember they did pretty much the same thing with the ZM>Loxia (or so it's rumored).
And I'm wondering which other C/Y lenses might make the cut. We already know the 50/1.4 and 85/1.4 were replaced, Lloyd Chambers writes that the 25/2.8 is discontinued (note he didn't say "replaced," hmmmm). I bet the 35/1.4 is out since we already got the newer 35/2. From the ZF set I'm betting we get just the 28/2 which despite not being a technical superstar is beloved for its certain character. And remember, C/Y lenses which never joined the ZF roster aren't necessarily off limits - personally I would suggest the 200/2 APO since the ZF never went telephoto enough for me and the 45/2.8 pancake since the new 50/1.4 is ginormous.
Thinking about that brings up another thought: they had to compromise to get 6 lenses ready for this launch. The 21/2.8 is probably good enough not to need an update (though I'd like one), but the 35/2 isn't really at that level (especially compared to the new 50 & 85) and even the 100/2 could've used some tweaks. I suspect they heard all the complaining about the size of the Touit, Loxia, Batis, and Otus line-ups and decided they couldn't release another 2-3 lens series.
Sep 12, 2015 at 05:09 PM
p.10 #19Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Whereas Sony wants to climb rapidly, so I would imagine they'd freely share their AF tech with Zeiss in order for Zeiss to make AF lenses for their mounts. Everybody wins, basically. Except CaNikon.Sony gains something, but Zeiss would stand to gain the most by selling the most lenses overall to everyone, Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. The proprietary AF of Nikon and Canon benefit Nikon and Canon by making it more difficult for 3rd parties to AF, so more Nikon and Canon lenses are likely to be sold. I suspect Canon and Nikon are more concerned about challenging the high volume, lower cost, 3rd party lenses than the low volume, expensive Zeiss lenses.
EBHI think Sony comes out looking worse after this announcement from Zeiss. The clear signal to the market is that if you want the very best, no-compromise Zeiss glass - and the broadest Zeiss lens line - it will continue to be designed natively for Canon and Nikon, not Sony. Mirrorless lenses from Zeiss will be a compromise by comparison - slower lenses with digital correction of distortion required in order to keep the weight down for the smaller mirrorless bodies. Sure, one can mount these lenses on Sony but ultimately I see this move as Zeiss throwing it's...Show more →
Good points. Given that the market for all interchangeable lenses is continuing to decline, I'm just happy that new lenses and other technologies are still being developed at a good pace.
EBH
EB-1 wrote
Sam_W wrote
Well, the other thing is that Sony is the underdog that wants to get to the #2 spot. CaNikon currently occupy the #1 and #2 spots, so it's in their interest to keep everyone from making quality AF lenses that work on their bodies.Whereas Sony wants to climb rapidly, so I would imagine they'd freely share their AF tech with Zeiss in order for Zeiss to make AF lenses for their mounts. Everybody wins, basically. Except CaNikon.
EBH
Good points. Given that the market for all interchangeable lenses is continuing to decline, I'm just happy that new lenses and other technologies are still being developed at a good pace.
EBH
Sep 12, 2015 at 07:57 PM
p.10 #20Zeiss Milvus are out: new range of DSLR lenses!
Samuli Vahonen wrote:
check here.
http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/zeiss_milvus_50mm_f1_4_photos/Wow, Zeiss did definitely leave "color correction" to Otus-only. For example on this photo the curve on wall in background glows green no matter how small the image is resized, and when looking close (e.g. her right hand, underneath) there is very strong "defocus color fringing" (terminology from Toothwalker's post from last page), and strings in the instrument glow red when not in focus. When these things happen in boke, there is no way of correcting it in post processing. The f/5.6 samples looked much better.
Hopefully they come usable on larger aperture than ZE/ZF/CY 1.4/50. Having this large lens...Show more →
I guess you are looking at it all wrong (at least according to Lloyd/ Digilloyd).
http://diglloyd.com/blog/2015/20150913_1450-SLOCA.html
Guess I will stick with the less corrected - and cheaper - lenses that avoid this issue myself as I do find this effect visually more troublesome than some of the other abberations that apparently mask the problem.
bushwacker wrote
it appears that Zeiss decided to remove the dreamy effect at 1.4 on 50/1.4 milvus. or maybe because there are no background details involved?check here.
http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/zeiss_milvus_50mm_f1_4_photos/
Hopefully they come usable on larger aperture than ZE/ZF/CY 1.4/50. Having this large lens...Show more →
I guess you are looking at it all wrong (at least according to Lloyd/ Digilloyd).
http://diglloyd.com/blog/2015/20150913_1450-SLOCA.html
Guess I will stick with the less corrected - and cheaper - lenses that avoid this issue myself as I do find this effect visually more troublesome than some of the other abberations that apparently mask the problem.
Sep 13, 2015 at 08:25 PM