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Archive 2015Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
p.10 #1Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
swldstn wrote:
Get out and take pictures instead of worrying that your accessories don't match... 
Its not about matching. Is there no one that thinks of their lenses as tools? Consistency of ergonomics, approach to EV, and color and rendering are the important things in a lens FAMILY. Does anyone use or own power tools or hand tools? How would you feel about a screw driver set with all different handles or a drill bit set where the turned in different directions?
as a cabinetmaker, modelmaker, moldmaker for 17 years i had hand tools from many different makers. English, German, Japanese, Canadian and many handles i made myself. i loved each for long train that led to it's design. together i could approach most problems. do you judge an orchestra by the visual harmony of the instruments?
molson wrote
swldstn wrote
Why can't we get Zeiss to commit to a roadmap? Should I buy Batis without knowing what's coming next? Did that for Loxia and I may learn to regret it.as a cabinetmaker, modelmaker, moldmaker for 17 years i had hand tools from many different makers. English, German, Japanese, Canadian and many handles i made myself. i loved each for long train that led to it's design. together i could approach most problems. do you judge an orchestra by the visual harmony of the instruments?
Apr 24, 2015 at 06:50 AM
p.10 #2Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
I'd agree with that, when using a system the lenses should 'feel' the same in the hand, should screw the same way, focus the same way and with a similar feel to the rings, etc. However fun it is to use alt lenses, a pro system should work by feel and be consistent.
Apr 24, 2015 at 07:00 AM
p.10 #3Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
swldstn wrote:
Consistency of ergonomics, approach to EV, and color and rendering are the important things in a lens FAMILY.
Consistency of ergonomics, definitely. This is important so you can concentrate on what you're shooting without thinking too much about which way to turn the focus ring, whether there is an aperture ring or not etc.
Consistency of aesthetics is a nice thing, but no the be all and end all. However the relevent thing to me is that there is perfect consistency of ergonomics, performance, aesthetics etc. within each lens line (Loxia, Batis, Sony Zeiss), there are just lots of interlocking lens lines at the moment so your lens collection right now appears inconsistent.
Once there is a whole suite of each (which there will be, provided they keep selling) the situation will look a lot better.
Consistency of ergonomics, approach to EV, and color and rendering are the important things in a lens FAMILY.
Consistency of ergonomics, definitely. This is important so you can concentrate on what you're shooting without thinking too much about which way to turn the focus ring, whether there is an aperture ring or not etc.
Consistency of aesthetics is a nice thing, but no the be all and end all. However the relevent thing to me is that there is perfect consistency of ergonomics, performance, aesthetics etc. within each lens line (Loxia, Batis, Sony Zeiss), there are just lots of interlocking lens lines at the moment so your lens collection right now appears inconsistent.
Once there is a whole suite of each (which there will be, provided they keep selling) the situation will look a lot better.
Apr 24, 2015 at 07:28 AM
p.10 #4Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
swldstn wrote:
Even Sony knows it. When I look at a FE 16-35, FE 24-70, FE 55, FE 35/1.4 these lenses share a concept and a roadmap.
If by that you mean they're all black and all fit on a Sony, I guess I would agree with you... but beyond that, their similarities start to drift apart.
Even Sony knows it. When I look at a FE 16-35, FE 24-70, FE 55, FE 35/1.4 these lenses share a concept and a roadmap.
If by that you mean they're all black and all fit on a Sony, I guess I would agree with you... but beyond that, their similarities start to drift apart.
Apr 24, 2015 at 07:47 AM
p.10 #5Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Matt Grum wrote:
Without the hood it's a bit closer:
http://www.mattgrum.com/fm/Batis.png
The lens barrels are pretty fat, that's for sure, but the 2/25 is relatively light, which combined with it's larger volume is going to make it feel surprisingly light for it's size.
At the end of the day I'm more concerned with weight, weight distribution and length than diameter.
Not me. I am not that concerned with weight as long as a lens is less than 600g or so. I would much rather have a Leica M 75 lux which is 70mm in diameter about 90mm long with an adapter and just under 600g with the adapter than a Batis which weighs a lot less but is considerably fatter. I find fat lenses on the A7 series camera to make the smallish grip area feel even smaller, but everybody has their preferences and I have very large hands which may contribute to my discomfort with fat lenses.
twoeye wrote
Size comparision Batis 2/25 vs. FE 2/28:http://www.mattgrum.com/fm/Batis.png
The lens barrels are pretty fat, that's for sure, but the 2/25 is relatively light, which combined with it's larger volume is going to make it feel surprisingly light for it's size.
At the end of the day I'm more concerned with weight, weight distribution and length than diameter.
Not me. I am not that concerned with weight as long as a lens is less than 600g or so. I would much rather have a Leica M 75 lux which is 70mm in diameter about 90mm long with an adapter and just under 600g with the adapter than a Batis which weighs a lot less but is considerably fatter. I find fat lenses on the A7 series camera to make the smallish grip area feel even smaller, but everybody has their preferences and I have very large hands which may contribute to my discomfort with fat lenses.
Apr 24, 2015 at 07:57 AM
p.10 #6Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
swldstn wrote:
Get out and take pictures instead of worrying that your accessories don't match... Its not about matching. Is there no one that thinks of their lenses as tools? Consistency of ergonomics, approach to EV, and color and rendering are the important things in a lens FAMILY. Does anyone use or own power tools or hand tools? How would you feel about a screw driver set with all different handles or a drill bit set where the turned in different directions?
ZM, ZE, ZF,and even ZA lenses are FAMILY of lenses where you can change out a 21 for 25 or a 35 for 28 and feel your getting the same look and USAGE model....Show more →
It looks to me like this Batis line fits right in with the Sony/Zeiss FE lenses about as well as the Sony G lenses. I think they will work well together as a set, but we will know more when people actually get their hands on these lenses.
I actually suspect that there was some careful collaboration between Sony and Zeiss in their lens plans. I think the reason we haven't seen a Sony branded 85 is they knew this Zeiss Batis was coming. Ditto for a 24 or 25 mm. It will be interesting to see if the coordination continues, but I think it is interesting that if we look at both the Batis and the Touit lenses only the Touit 32mm has a comparable lens that is made by Sony and that was not a Sony/Zeiss lens, and I suspect Zeiss probably sees making that lens as the biggest mistake in the line. So looking forward I think we can expect a wider lens or two from Zeiss (either an 18 or 21 or both) in the Batis line, maybe a Sony/Zeiss 135, and a Sony G 200. You might see a Zeiss Batis 60 macro as well, but I don't expect a full line of Batis lenses. Maybe they will make a 35 f/2 and or a 50 f/1.4, but keep in mind they must be paid something for the Sony/Zeiss lenses, so they would be competing with themselves to at least some extent if they made a Batis lens that was comparable to a Sony/Zeiss lens.
molson wrote
swldstn wrote
Why can't we get Zeiss to commit to a roadmap? Should I buy Batis without knowing what's coming next? Did that for Loxia and I may learn to regret it.ZM, ZE, ZF,and even ZA lenses are FAMILY of lenses where you can change out a 21 for 25 or a 35 for 28 and feel your getting the same look and USAGE model....Show more →
It looks to me like this Batis line fits right in with the Sony/Zeiss FE lenses about as well as the Sony G lenses. I think they will work well together as a set, but we will know more when people actually get their hands on these lenses.
I actually suspect that there was some careful collaboration between Sony and Zeiss in their lens plans. I think the reason we haven't seen a Sony branded 85 is they knew this Zeiss Batis was coming. Ditto for a 24 or 25 mm. It will be interesting to see if the coordination continues, but I think it is interesting that if we look at both the Batis and the Touit lenses only the Touit 32mm has a comparable lens that is made by Sony and that was not a Sony/Zeiss lens, and I suspect Zeiss probably sees making that lens as the biggest mistake in the line. So looking forward I think we can expect a wider lens or two from Zeiss (either an 18 or 21 or both) in the Batis line, maybe a Sony/Zeiss 135, and a Sony G 200. You might see a Zeiss Batis 60 macro as well, but I don't expect a full line of Batis lenses. Maybe they will make a 35 f/2 and or a 50 f/1.4, but keep in mind they must be paid something for the Sony/Zeiss lenses, so they would be competing with themselves to at least some extent if they made a Batis lens that was comparable to a Sony/Zeiss lens.
Apr 24, 2015 at 08:22 AM
p.10 #7Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
swldstn wrote:
I't took me awhile to catch up to this thread but I guess I will just re-state some thoughts I had on dpreview.
I was surprised to see the Batis announcement of FE lenses with AF similar in concept to the Touits for APS-C. Does that mean that Loxia concept is dead? I had hoped for the 25 or 21mm Loxia to go with the 35/2 and 50/2 but will that ever happen now with the Batis 25/2?
I agree that an 85/1.8 and 25/2 are needed I just don't want another theme introduced to distract from a consistent set of lenses....Show more →
I very much share your concern about the Loxia lenses. I too would have much preferred that these lenses would have been Loxia lenses and that Zeiss would have done more to develop that line of lenses. To be fair, however, Zeiss has said from the beginning that the Loxia lenses are geared for video, and the first two lenses support that pretty strongly with their similar design and click less aperture ring. Like you I would have preferred a MF line geared for still photography. I would have really wanted an upgrade of the ZM line tuned for the Sony cameras, but if you listened to Zeiss and saw what they were doing it was clear that wasn't what we were going to get.They did promise 5 Loxia lenses when they introduced that line. I still expect we will get that. I my guess on what those lenses will be hasn't changed. I think we will get an ultrawide (probably an 18mm based on the ZM 18 f/4). I think we will get a 25mm (probably based on the ZM 25 f/2.8, but here they might blend it with the 25 f/2.8 distagon for their ZF series), and then a tele. I think that will probably be an 85 based on their ZM 85 f/2, but that lens too could be a relatively new design or be an f/2.8 based on Contax C/Y 85 f/2.8 or the Contax G 90 (these are very similar designs). Will some of these be useful for stills? Yes of course they will be. I personally would be very interested in the 18, but what we can know for sure is they will be designed with video in mind first and stills as only a secondary concern at most.
I't took me awhile to catch up to this thread but I guess I will just re-state some thoughts I had on dpreview.
I was surprised to see the Batis announcement of FE lenses with AF similar in concept to the Touits for APS-C. Does that mean that Loxia concept is dead? I had hoped for the 25 or 21mm Loxia to go with the 35/2 and 50/2 but will that ever happen now with the Batis 25/2?
I agree that an 85/1.8 and 25/2 are needed I just don't want another theme introduced to distract from a consistent set of lenses....Show more →
I very much share your concern about the Loxia lenses. I too would have much preferred that these lenses would have been Loxia lenses and that Zeiss would have done more to develop that line of lenses. To be fair, however, Zeiss has said from the beginning that the Loxia lenses are geared for video, and the first two lenses support that pretty strongly with their similar design and click less aperture ring. Like you I would have preferred a MF line geared for still photography. I would have really wanted an upgrade of the ZM line tuned for the Sony cameras, but if you listened to Zeiss and saw what they were doing it was clear that wasn't what we were going to get.They did promise 5 Loxia lenses when they introduced that line. I still expect we will get that. I my guess on what those lenses will be hasn't changed. I think we will get an ultrawide (probably an 18mm based on the ZM 18 f/4). I think we will get a 25mm (probably based on the ZM 25 f/2.8, but here they might blend it with the 25 f/2.8 distagon for their ZF series), and then a tele. I think that will probably be an 85 based on their ZM 85 f/2, but that lens too could be a relatively new design or be an f/2.8 based on Contax C/Y 85 f/2.8 or the Contax G 90 (these are very similar designs). Will some of these be useful for stills? Yes of course they will be. I personally would be very interested in the 18, but what we can know for sure is they will be designed with video in mind first and stills as only a secondary concern at most.
Apr 24, 2015 at 08:38 AM
p.10 #8Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
I will be really interested on how this glass renders colors. Minolta matched their glass through the different lens designs...Sony now has their own G lens, Zeiss branded lenses, and now true Zeiss lenses. The Zeiss branded Sony lenses seem to be cooler than the G glass, I wonder if the Z branded and true Z will be matched?
Apr 24, 2015 at 08:56 AM
p.10 #9Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
DavidBM wrote:
Okay, good point - nevertheless it shows that it is possible to make small lenses with AF. Likely this AF system was not as fast as nowadays ultrasonic based systems, but it also could be adapted to nowadays newer technology. I still have a hard time to believe that the big size of those new E-mount lenses is caused by AF.....Not only was the AF motor in the Contax's camera body, but the also wasn't auto aperture on the G lenses. Add that to the fact that newer lenses have more complicated optical designs, and the size starts adding up.Look at Leica M lenses for small size and excellent optical design....so it can't be just the optical design which makes lenses bigger. And as I said above, it can't be the AF either (it might add a bit but not this tremendous increase in size).Even on film, lots of Leica M lenses have Zone B dips, which is likely part of the compromise.
Like theSuede predicted a couple of years ago, FE lenses are also dealing with the bottleneck of a relatively small mount so close to the sensor. He told us (and showed ray angle diagrams) that most fast FE lenses, particularly wide angles, are going to end up being about the size of their DSLR counterparts+adapters, and that's turning out to be the case. Leica's mount is smaller, but further away from the sensor. Plus, they use a thinner sensor stack. Of course, FE mount still has the advantage of using the area where the DSLR mirror would be for lens elements, so the designs can be potentially better, just not much smaller.
There's a reason that m4/3, Fuji X, Samsung NX, Nikon 1, etc. all use mounts that are relatively large compared to their sensor size. Sony was able to fit a FF sensor into FE mount, but, if they wanted shorter fast lenses, a wider mount would have helped.The size and location of the FE mount can't be part of the issue viz a viz Leica; when you mount a Leica lens on an E mount camera the ray angles *are exactly the same* since the distance to the sensor is exactly the same; and the size doesn't cause any mechanical vignetting.
When M lenses perform worse on E mount relative to Leica digital it can only be four issues
(1) sensor stack
(2) angle of micro lenses on the sensor
(3) lack of the software correction which Leica does to fix the colour issues
(4) higher resolution of the Sony sensor making...Show more →
That's my point. With the current sensor tech that most everyone uses, outside of Leica, it's a problem. Plus, again, lots of Leica lenses have a zone B dip, even on film. I know M lenses are held in high esteem, and I've owned lots of them, but M lenses are a compromise due to size, too, and newer M lenses are getting longer and longer.
Organic sensors are probable the answer further down the road.
douglasf13 wrote
retrofocus wrote
douglasf13 wrote
retrofocus wrote
edwardkaraa wrote
The G were screw driven, the motor was in the camera body.Like theSuede predicted a couple of years ago, FE lenses are also dealing with the bottleneck of a relatively small mount so close to the sensor. He told us (and showed ray angle diagrams) that most fast FE lenses, particularly wide angles, are going to end up being about the size of their DSLR counterparts+adapters, and that's turning out to be the case. Leica's mount is smaller, but further away from the sensor. Plus, they use a thinner sensor stack. Of course, FE mount still has the advantage of using the area where the DSLR mirror would be for lens elements, so the designs can be potentially better, just not much smaller.
There's a reason that m4/3, Fuji X, Samsung NX, Nikon 1, etc. all use mounts that are relatively large compared to their sensor size. Sony was able to fit a FF sensor into FE mount, but, if they wanted shorter fast lenses, a wider mount would have helped.
When M lenses perform worse on E mount relative to Leica digital it can only be four issues
(1) sensor stack
(2) angle of micro lenses on the sensor
(3) lack of the software correction which Leica does to fix the colour issues
(4) higher resolution of the Sony sensor making...Show more →
That's my point. With the current sensor tech that most everyone uses, outside of Leica, it's a problem. Plus, again, lots of Leica lenses have a zone B dip, even on film. I know M lenses are held in high esteem, and I've owned lots of them, but M lenses are a compromise due to size, too, and newer M lenses are getting longer and longer.
Organic sensors are probable the answer further down the road.
Apr 24, 2015 at 09:19 AM
p.10 #10Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
douglasf13 wrote:
Not only was the AF motor in the Contax's camera body, but the also wasn't auto aperture on the G lenses. Add that to the fact that newer lenses have more complicated optical designs, and the size starts adding up.Look at Leica M lenses for small size and excellent optical design....so it can't be just the optical design which makes lenses bigger. And as I said above, it can't be the AF either (it might add a bit but not this tremendous increase in size).Even on film, lots of Leica M lenses have Zone B dips, which is likely part of the compromise.
Like theSuede predicted a couple of years ago, FE lenses are also dealing with the bottleneck of a relatively small mount so close to the sensor. He told us (and showed ray angle diagrams) that most fast FE lenses, particularly wide angles, are going to end up being about the size of their DSLR counterparts+adapters, and that's turning out to be the case. Leica's mount is smaller, but further away from the sensor. Plus, they use a thinner sensor stack. Of course, FE mount still has the advantage of using the area where the DSLR mirror would be for lens elements, so the designs can be potentially better, just not much smaller.
There's a reason that m4/3, Fuji X, Samsung NX, Nikon 1, etc. all use mounts that are relatively large compared to their sensor size. Sony was able to fit a FF sensor into FE mount, but, if they wanted shorter fast lenses, a wider mount would have helped.The size and location of the FE mount can't be part of the issue viz a viz Leica; when you mount a Leica lens on an E mount camera the ray angles *are exactly the same* since the distance to the sensor is exactly the same; and the size doesn't cause any mechanical vignetting.
When M lenses perform worse on E mount relative to Leica digital it can only be four issues
(1) sensor stack
(2) angle of micro lenses on the sensor
(3) lack of the software correction which Leica does to fix the colour issues
(4) higher resolution of the Sony sensor making the mush easier to see at high mag.That's my point. With the current sensor tech that most everyone uses, outside of Leica, it's a problem. Plus, again, lots of Leica lenses have a zone B dip, even on film. I know M lenses are held in high esteem, and I've owned lots of them, but M lenses are a compromise due to size, too, and newer M lenses are getting longer and longer.
Organic sensors are probable the answer further down the road.
But there are quite a few modern Leica M lenses that don't have the Zone B dip on film, Leica M digital or even the a Sony with the Kolari conversion. These include the 21 SEM, 24 Elmar ASPH, 28 cron ASPH, 50 lux ASPH (after about f/4), 50 cron AA, 75 cron AA (after about f/4), and the 90 cron AA, and all of these lenses are quite small for their focal length and although they are very expensive only the 50 cron AA is more than $3,000. And if you want a 35 without a zone B dip, then the Zeiss ZM f/1.4 is very much in the league of these lenses as well. With the Kolari conversion all these work well on the Sony cameras and although the 21, 24, and 28 may show some colour shift issues these can easily be handed in lightroom with a plug in. So yes, it is possible to have very high IQ and small lenses, but it will cost you and you have to be fine with manual focus.
DavidBM wrote
douglasf13 wrote
retrofocus wrote
douglasf13 wrote
retrofocus wrote
Okay, good point - nevertheless it shows that it is possible to make small lenses with AF. Likely this AF system was not as fast as nowadays ultrasonic based systems, but it also could be adapted to nowadays newer technology. I still have a hard time to believe that the big size of those new E-mount lenses is caused by AF.....Like theSuede predicted a couple of years ago, FE lenses are also dealing with the bottleneck of a relatively small mount so close to the sensor. He told us (and showed ray angle diagrams) that most fast FE lenses, particularly wide angles, are going to end up being about the size of their DSLR counterparts+adapters, and that's turning out to be the case. Leica's mount is smaller, but further away from the sensor. Plus, they use a thinner sensor stack. Of course, FE mount still has the advantage of using the area where the DSLR mirror would be for lens elements, so the designs can be potentially better, just not much smaller.
There's a reason that m4/3, Fuji X, Samsung NX, Nikon 1, etc. all use mounts that are relatively large compared to their sensor size. Sony was able to fit a FF sensor into FE mount, but, if they wanted shorter fast lenses, a wider mount would have helped.
When M lenses perform worse on E mount relative to Leica digital it can only be four issues
(1) sensor stack
(2) angle of micro lenses on the sensor
(3) lack of the software correction which Leica does to fix the colour issues
(4) higher resolution of the Sony sensor making the mush easier to see at high mag.
Organic sensors are probable the answer further down the road.
But there are quite a few modern Leica M lenses that don't have the Zone B dip on film, Leica M digital or even the a Sony with the Kolari conversion. These include the 21 SEM, 24 Elmar ASPH, 28 cron ASPH, 50 lux ASPH (after about f/4), 50 cron AA, 75 cron AA (after about f/4), and the 90 cron AA, and all of these lenses are quite small for their focal length and although they are very expensive only the 50 cron AA is more than $3,000. And if you want a 35 without a zone B dip, then the Zeiss ZM f/1.4 is very much in the league of these lenses as well. With the Kolari conversion all these work well on the Sony cameras and although the 21, 24, and 28 may show some colour shift issues these can easily be handed in lightroom with a plug in. So yes, it is possible to have very high IQ and small lenses, but it will cost you and you have to be fine with manual focus.
Apr 24, 2015 at 09:39 AM
p.10 #11Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
The 85mm 1.8 will be based on same formulaa as the 55mm 1.8. In other words it will be amazing! Zeiss and Sony have an agreement that they cannot step on each others foot with lenses which is why we are seeing these in AF now. Sony has no pans for their own Zeiss branded versions.
The 85 will be a joy to use I should have one from Zeiss in May and will let you know what I think
The 85 will be a joy to use I should have one from Zeiss in May and will let you know what I think
Apr 24, 2015 at 10:37 AM
p.10 #12Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Jorge, is the manufacturing being done by Sony or Zeiss (Cosina) or other 3rd party?
Apr 24, 2015 at 11:03 AM
p.10 #13Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
I don't know if I'll get any response but I posted a question in the Zeiss Blog asking about Batis and Loxia. As there's no Batis post there yet I posted it in the recent Loxia topic. The author is not a Ziess designer so I hope it will be picked up by someone in Zeiss.
"Hello, interesting article on the Loxia. Can you tell us how the Loxia and Batis line will work together? eg complementary (no duplicate lenses), or in parallel (both Loxia and Batis lenses to be released at the same FL)? Also, when will the Batis MTF be made available?"
"Hello, interesting article on the Loxia. Can you tell us how the Loxia and Batis line will work together? eg complementary (no duplicate lenses), or in parallel (both Loxia and Batis lenses to be released at the same FL)? Also, when will the Batis MTF be made available?"
Apr 24, 2015 at 11:46 AM
p.10 #14Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
The first Batis MTF is going to be released in June, or May if you subscribe to Lloyd's blog. These Batus are made by a network of Zeiss' Japanese partners, according to Zeiss' response on their FB. I don't think they would comment about their future plan.
Apr 24, 2015 at 11:58 AM
p.10 #15Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
According to SAR, Zeiss has confirmed that (as expected) these lenses are focus-by-wire. Not a surprise. No big deal, I already wasn't interested because I don't buy lenses without aperture rings.
However, they also confirmed that the Loxia are NOT focus-by-wire. Given how electronic everything mirrorless is (even "retro"-obsessed Fuji gave us fake aperture rings!!), I hadn't dared hope. I might buy that 50/2 now...love the soap bubble bokeh.
However, they also confirmed that the Loxia are NOT focus-by-wire. Given how electronic everything mirrorless is (even "retro"-obsessed Fuji gave us fake aperture rings!!), I hadn't dared hope. I might buy that 50/2 now...love the soap bubble bokeh.
Apr 24, 2015 at 02:34 PM
p.10 #16Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Steve Spencer wrote:
Look at Leica M lenses for small size and excellent optical design....so it can't be just the optical design which makes lenses bigger. And as I said above, it can't be the AF either (it might add a bit but not this tremendous increase in size).Even on film, lots of Leica M lenses have Zone B dips, which is likely part of the compromise.
Like theSuede predicted a couple of years ago, FE lenses are also dealing with the bottleneck of a relatively small mount so close to the sensor. He told us (and showed ray angle diagrams) that most fast FE lenses, particularly wide angles, are going to end up being about the size of their DSLR counterparts+adapters, and that's turning out to be the case. Leica's mount is smaller, but further away from the sensor. Plus, they use a thinner sensor stack. Of course, FE mount still has the advantage of using the area where the DSLR mirror would be for lens elements, so the designs can be potentially better, just not much smaller.
There's a reason that m4/3, Fuji X, Samsung NX, Nikon 1, etc. all use mounts that are relatively large compared to their sensor size. Sony was able to fit a FF sensor into FE mount, but, if they wanted shorter fast lenses, a wider mount would have helped.The size and location of the FE mount can't be part of the issue viz a viz Leica; when you mount a Leica lens on an E mount camera the ray angles *are exactly the same* since the distance to the sensor is exactly the same; and the size doesn't cause any mechanical vignetting.
When M lenses perform worse on E mount relative to Leica digital it can only be four issues
(1) sensor stack
(2) angle of micro lenses on the sensor
(3) lack of the software correction which Leica does to fix the colour issues
(4) higher resolution of the Sony sensor making the mush easier to see at high mag.That's my point. With the current sensor tech that most everyone uses, outside of Leica, it's a problem. Plus, again, lots of Leica lenses have a zone B dip, even on film. I know M lenses are held in high esteem, and I've owned lots of them, but M lenses are a compromise due to size, too, and newer M lenses are getting longer and longer.
Organic sensors are probable the answer further down the road.But there are quite a few modern Leica M lenses that don't have the Zone B dip on film, Leica M digital or even the a Sony with the Kolari conversion. These include the 21 SEM, 24 Elmar ASPH, 28 cron ASPH, 50 lux ASPH (after about f/4), 50 cron AA, 75 cron AA (after about f/4), and the 90 cron AA, and all of these lenses are quite small for their focal length and although they are very expensive only the 50 cron AA is more than $3,000. And if you want a 35 without a zone B...Show more →
Hi, Steve. I was referring to faster than f2 M lenses, but I failed to mention that. The ZM 35/1.4 is a good example, I agree, but it's starting to get a bit long, being even longer than the 35 Lux Asph.
Maybe I wasn't making my point clear. I'm simply saying that, without a Leica sensor/Kolari mod, Sony has to make the fast FE lenses relatively long and telecentric. Now, we're even starting to see M lenses creep up in size these days, certainly compared to the 35 Lux Pre-asph and other older lenses, which I consider to be truly small.
That new FE 28 is only 15mm longer than a 28 Cron (when you include the extra 10mm of registration distance in the equation,) but it's the diameter that really makes it look large, and unfortunately, AF lenses have to deal with a lot more internal electronics, making them fatter.
douglasf13 wrote
DavidBM wrote
douglasf13 wrote
retrofocus wrote
douglasf13 wrote
Not only was the AF motor in the Contax's camera body, but the also wasn't auto aperture on the G lenses. Add that to the fact that newer lenses have more complicated optical designs, and the size starts adding up.Like theSuede predicted a couple of years ago, FE lenses are also dealing with the bottleneck of a relatively small mount so close to the sensor. He told us (and showed ray angle diagrams) that most fast FE lenses, particularly wide angles, are going to end up being about the size of their DSLR counterparts+adapters, and that's turning out to be the case. Leica's mount is smaller, but further away from the sensor. Plus, they use a thinner sensor stack. Of course, FE mount still has the advantage of using the area where the DSLR mirror would be for lens elements, so the designs can be potentially better, just not much smaller.
There's a reason that m4/3, Fuji X, Samsung NX, Nikon 1, etc. all use mounts that are relatively large compared to their sensor size. Sony was able to fit a FF sensor into FE mount, but, if they wanted shorter fast lenses, a wider mount would have helped.
When M lenses perform worse on E mount relative to Leica digital it can only be four issues
(1) sensor stack
(2) angle of micro lenses on the sensor
(3) lack of the software correction which Leica does to fix the colour issues
(4) higher resolution of the Sony sensor making the mush easier to see at high mag.
Organic sensors are probable the answer further down the road.
Hi, Steve. I was referring to faster than f2 M lenses, but I failed to mention that. The ZM 35/1.4 is a good example, I agree, but it's starting to get a bit long, being even longer than the 35 Lux Asph.
Maybe I wasn't making my point clear. I'm simply saying that, without a Leica sensor/Kolari mod, Sony has to make the fast FE lenses relatively long and telecentric. Now, we're even starting to see M lenses creep up in size these days, certainly compared to the 35 Lux Pre-asph and other older lenses, which I consider to be truly small.
That new FE 28 is only 15mm longer than a 28 Cron (when you include the extra 10mm of registration distance in the equation,) but it's the diameter that really makes it look large, and unfortunately, AF lenses have to deal with a lot more internal electronics, making them fatter.
Apr 24, 2015 at 03:53 PM
p.10 #17Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
It's interesting that in talking about larger lenses, different people seem to care more about length, width or weight.
One of the reasons I sold my F mount CV 90/3.5 and got an M mount CV 90/3.5 is that the M mount version is very narrow compared to the F mount version (although a similar length with adapters) and allows me to use a more compact bag.
One of the reasons I sold my F mount CV 90/3.5 and got an M mount CV 90/3.5 is that the M mount version is very narrow compared to the F mount version (although a similar length with adapters) and allows me to use a more compact bag.
Apr 24, 2015 at 03:58 PM
p.10 #18Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
mogul wrote:
Jorge, is the manufacturing being done by Sony or Zeiss (Cosina) or other 3rd party?
These are 100% zeiss. No sony involvement.
Jorge, is the manufacturing being done by Sony or Zeiss (Cosina) or other 3rd party?
These are 100% zeiss. No sony involvement.
Apr 24, 2015 at 04:06 PM
p.10 #19Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
My money (probably quite literally) is on a series of Batis lenses, with the far smaller niche manual focus range seeing lower priority than the new line. [How could a new range of fabulously specified lenses be seen as a distraction, I don;t see the reasoning as you have more choice, no?]
Given the elapsed time taken for the slightly modified Loxias to appear - in what seemed like an exercise to recycle modified ZMs as sensor-friendly new age optics for a rather hefty price - the high tech Batises are out the door fast, and they fill the two giant gaps in FE thoughtfully left absent by Sony - high IQ but 'affordable' everyman prime lenses of the right lens speed at the accepted and critical FLs of 25 and 85.
I suspect what many are unhappy is the potential for Batis to crowd out what they saw as the narrow Zeiss purity angle - attaching to old school manual focus lenses, aimed squarely at Leicaphiles.
Here Zeiss appear to be drawing a thick line between high end new designs aimed at working photographers who need AF and can use stabilization; and the core enthusiast market as it has morphed into Sony's a7 arena. Or so it seemed.
Given the elapsed time taken for the slightly modified Loxias to appear - in what seemed like an exercise to recycle modified ZMs as sensor-friendly new age optics for a rather hefty price - the high tech Batises are out the door fast, and they fill the two giant gaps in FE thoughtfully left absent by Sony - high IQ but 'affordable' everyman prime lenses of the right lens speed at the accepted and critical FLs of 25 and 85.
I suspect what many are unhappy is the potential for Batis to crowd out what they saw as the narrow Zeiss purity angle - attaching to old school manual focus lenses, aimed squarely at Leicaphiles.
Here Zeiss appear to be drawing a thick line between high end new designs aimed at working photographers who need AF and can use stabilization; and the core enthusiast market as it has morphed into Sony's a7 arena. Or so it seemed.
Apr 24, 2015 at 04:36 PM
p.10 #20Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
But - that latter MF enthusiast niche is a spin off, a by catch if you will, of the true reason for Loxia - video applications.
Not many people pay attention to PR releases in a world seemingly run on hype - you should in the case of Zeiss. You don't even need to read between the lines in Zeiss's Loxia 35mm web page:
http://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/en_de/cine_lenses/slr/loxia_lenses.html
Every para makes mentions the video orientation. The word 'video' is used six times. And:
'Ideal for filmmaking as well as still pictures.'
'Using the silent aperture change.'
'Optional switchable aperture lock'
'the new ZEISS Loxia lenses 2/35 and 2/50 are optimally suited to video recordings: their compact size enables the cameraman to work unobtrusively from various angles and thus avoid disrupting the scenery. This makes them the perfect companion for documentaries and high-quality reports.'
'Movie makers who are fans of the Sony FS7 will be amazed by these lenses'.
Not many people pay attention to PR releases in a world seemingly run on hype - you should in the case of Zeiss. You don't even need to read between the lines in Zeiss's Loxia 35mm web page:
http://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/en_de/cine_lenses/slr/loxia_lenses.html
Every para makes mentions the video orientation. The word 'video' is used six times. And:
'Ideal for filmmaking as well as still pictures.'
'Using the silent aperture change.'
'Optional switchable aperture lock'
'the new ZEISS Loxia lenses 2/35 and 2/50 are optimally suited to video recordings: their compact size enables the cameraman to work unobtrusively from various angles and thus avoid disrupting the scenery. This makes them the perfect companion for documentaries and high-quality reports.'
'Movie makers who are fans of the Sony FS7 will be amazed by these lenses'.
Apr 24, 2015 at 04:38 PM