p.10 #1 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
swldstn wrote:
Its not about matching. Is there no one that thinks of their lenses as tools? Consistency of ergonomics, approach to EV, and color and rendering are the important things in a lens FAMILY. Does anyone use or own power tools or hand tools? How would you feel about a screw driver set with all different handles or a drill bit set where the turned in different directions?
as a cabinetmaker, modelmaker, moldmaker for 17 years i had hand tools from many different makers. English, German, Japanese, Canadian and many handles i made myself. i loved each for long train that led to it's design. together i could approach most problems. do you judge an orchestra by the visual harmony of the instruments?
p.10 #2 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
I'd agree with that, when using a system the lenses should 'feel' the same in the hand, should screw the same way, focus the same way and with a similar feel to the rings, etc. However fun it is to use alt lenses, a pro system should work by feel and be consistent.
p.10 #3 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
swldstn wrote:
Consistency of ergonomics, approach to EV, and color and rendering are the important things in a lens FAMILY.
Consistency of ergonomics, definitely. This is important so you can concentrate on what you're shooting without thinking too much about which way to turn the focus ring, whether there is an aperture ring or not etc.
Consistency of aesthetics is a nice thing, but no the be all and end all. However the relevent thing to me is that there is perfect consistency of ergonomics, performance, aesthetics etc. within each lens line (Loxia, Batis, Sony Zeiss), there are just lots of interlocking lens lines at the moment so your lens collection right now appears inconsistent.
Once there is a whole suite of each (which there will be, provided they keep selling) the situation will look a lot better.
p.10 #4 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
swldstn wrote:
Even Sony knows it. When I look at a FE 16-35, FE 24-70, FE 55, FE 35/1.4 these lenses share a concept and a roadmap.
If by that you mean they're all black and all fit on a Sony, I guess I would agree with you... but beyond that, their similarities start to drift apart.
Apr 24, 2015 at 08:47 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.10 #5 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Matt Grum wrote:
Without the hood it's a bit closer:
The lens barrels are pretty fat, that's for sure, but the 2/25 is relatively light, which combined with it's larger volume is going to make it feel surprisingly light for it's size.
At the end of the day I'm more concerned with weight, weight distribution and length than diameter.
Not me. I am not that concerned with weight as long as a lens is less than 600g or so. I would much rather have a Leica M 75 lux which is 70mm in diameter about 90mm long with an adapter and just under 600g with the adapter than a Batis which weighs a lot less but is considerably fatter. I find fat lenses on the A7 series camera to make the smallish grip area feel even smaller, but everybody has their preferences and I have very large hands which may contribute to my discomfort with fat lenses.
Apr 24, 2015 at 08:57 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.10 #6 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
swldstn wrote:
Its not about matching. Is there no one that thinks of their lenses as tools? Consistency of ergonomics, approach to EV, and color and rendering are the important things in a lens FAMILY. Does anyone use or own power tools or hand tools? How would you feel about a screw driver set with all different handles or a drill bit set where the turned in different directions?
ZM, ZE, ZF,and even ZA lenses are FAMILY of lenses where you can change out a 21 for 25 or a 35 for 28 and feel your getting the same look and USAGE model. Only if lenses feel the same do you use them as quickly and as seamlessly from shot to shot.
To me they are tools not ornaments. A Christmas tree has 20 different ornaments, a lens line has a concept and a theme and is useful if its adhered to and covers a broad range of focal lengths. Even Sony knows it. When I look at a FE 16-35, FE 24-70, FE 55, FE 35/1.4 these lenses share a concept and a roadmap. The G lenses are a little different but as least similar....Show more →
It looks to me like this Batis line fits right in with the Sony/Zeiss FE lenses about as well as the Sony G lenses. I think they will work well together as a set, but we will know more when people actually get their hands on these lenses.
I actually suspect that there was some careful collaboration between Sony and Zeiss in their lens plans. I think the reason we haven't seen a Sony branded 85 is they knew this Zeiss Batis was coming. Ditto for a 24 or 25 mm. It will be interesting to see if the coordination continues, but I think it is interesting that if we look at both the Batis and the Touit lenses only the Touit 32mm has a comparable lens that is made by Sony and that was not a Sony/Zeiss lens, and I suspect Zeiss probably sees making that lens as the biggest mistake in the line. So looking forward I think we can expect a wider lens or two from Zeiss (either an 18 or 21 or both) in the Batis line, maybe a Sony/Zeiss 135, and a Sony G 200. You might see a Zeiss Batis 60 macro as well, but I don't expect a full line of Batis lenses. Maybe they will make a 35 f/2 and or a 50 f/1.4, but keep in mind they must be paid something for the Sony/Zeiss lenses, so they would be competing with themselves to at least some extent if they made a Batis lens that was comparable to a Sony/Zeiss lens.
Apr 24, 2015 at 09:22 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.10 #7 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
swldstn wrote:
I't took me awhile to catch up to this thread but I guess I will just re-state some thoughts I had on dpreview.
I was surprised to see the Batis announcement of FE lenses with AF similar in concept to the Touits for APS-C. Does that mean that Loxia concept is dead? I had hoped for the 25 or 21mm Loxia to go with the 35/2 and 50/2 but will that ever happen now with the Batis 25/2?
I agree that an 85/1.8 and 25/2 are needed I just don't want another theme introduced to distract from a consistent set of lenses. This is fragmenting the market in the sense that the feel and approach to these lenses are all different. I'm a big fan on consistency when it comes to lens families. The ZM family with 15, 18, 21, 25, 35, 50, and 85 is what I want to see for Sony, by Zeiss, with the Loxia, or even if it had been Batis I could understand but what is Zeiss up to?
I understand its two different products with different user focus literately (AF vs MF) but having two lenses in two product lines is less preferable to me than 4 in one product line. As I mentioned before Touit has 3, Loxia 2, Batis 2, and Otis 2. Will it be 2018 before any of these get to 5 (21-25, 35, 50, 85, 135) lenses in any of these family? That's not what I thought I was buying into when I got the two Loxia lenses. I ended up abandoning the Touits on Fuji for that reason. Too littlt and it was taking too long. Fortunately Fuji wasn't taking that approach.
I agree I can adapt and when I first rushed into Sony for the A7R I planned to adapt my ZM lens (own 2.8/28, 2/35, 2/50, 1.5/50, 4/85 and CV 4.5/15) but of course the quality just wasn't there. So I was thrilled when I saw the Loxia and jumped in and got both the 2/35 and 2/50. It would be great if the next is a 21mm. I own the ZE 21mm and 18mm on my Canon and its a focal length I really like (have 14mm on my Fuji-X as well). If that happens I will be all set from 21 to 50. Then I could see buying a Batis 1.8/85 for portraits since AF is really nice there.
Above that I have the ZE 100mm f/2 and Nikon 135mm f/2.8 AIS that adapt really well.
Why can't we get Zeiss to commit to a roadmap? Should I buy Batis without knowing what's coming next? Did that for Loxia and I may learn to regret it. And if there are only two members of the Loxia family how good wil the resale value be. This process for me has been frustrating because I really wanted Loxia to continue.
Maybe I can get lucky and have Zeiss make some kind of statement about the future of Loxia. After all in interviews they stated that more would be coming but are they backing away from this position or continuing to endorse it?...Show more →
I very much share your concern about the Loxia lenses. I too would have much preferred that these lenses would have been Loxia lenses and that Zeiss would have done more to develop that line of lenses. To be fair, however, Zeiss has said from the beginning that the Loxia lenses are geared for video, and the first two lenses support that pretty strongly with their similar design and click less aperture ring. Like you I would have preferred a MF line geared for still photography. I would have really wanted an upgrade of the ZM line tuned for the Sony cameras, but if you listened to Zeiss and saw what they were doing it was clear that wasn't what we were going to get.They did promise 5 Loxia lenses when they introduced that line. I still expect we will get that. I my guess on what those lenses will be hasn't changed. I think we will get an ultrawide (probably an 18mm based on the ZM 18 f/4). I think we will get a 25mm (probably based on the ZM 25 f/2.8, but here they might blend it with the 25 f/2.8 distagon for their ZF series), and then a tele. I think that will probably be an 85 based on their ZM 85 f/2, but that lens too could be a relatively new design or be an f/2.8 based on Contax C/Y 85 f/2.8 or the Contax G 90 (these are very similar designs). Will some of these be useful for stills? Yes of course they will be. I personally would be very interested in the 18, but what we can know for sure is they will be designed with video in mind first and stills as only a secondary concern at most.
p.10 #8 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
I will be really interested on how this glass renders colors. Minolta matched their glass through the different lens designs...Sony now has their own G lens, Zeiss branded lenses, and now true Zeiss lenses. The Zeiss branded Sony lenses seem to be cooler than the G glass, I wonder if the Z branded and true Z will be matched?
p.10 #9 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
DavidBM wrote:
The size and location of the FE mount can't be part of the issue viz a viz Leica; when you mount a Leica lens on an E mount camera the ray angles *are exactly the same* since the distance to the sensor is exactly the same; and the size doesn't cause any mechanical vignetting.
When M lenses perform worse on E mount relative to Leica digital it can only be four issues
(1) sensor stack
(2) angle of micro lenses on the sensor
(3) lack of the software correction which Leica does to fix the colour issues
(4) higher resolution of the Sony sensor making the mush easier to see at high mag.
That's my point. With the current sensor tech that most everyone uses, outside of Leica, it's a problem. Plus, again, lots of Leica lenses have a zone B dip, even on film. I know M lenses are held in high esteem, and I've owned lots of them, but M lenses are a compromise due to size, too, and newer M lenses are getting longer and longer.
Organic sensors are probable the answer further down the road.
Apr 24, 2015 at 10:19 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.10 #10 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
douglasf13 wrote:
That's my point. With the current sensor tech that most everyone uses, outside of Leica, it's a problem. Plus, again, lots of Leica lenses have a zone B dip, even on film. I know M lenses are held in high esteem, and I've owned lots of them, but M lenses are a compromise due to size, too, and newer M lenses are getting longer and longer.
Organic sensors are probable the answer further down the road.
But there are quite a few modern Leica M lenses that don't have the Zone B dip on film, Leica M digital or even the a Sony with the Kolari conversion. These include the 21 SEM, 24 Elmar ASPH, 28 cron ASPH, 50 lux ASPH (after about f/4), 50 cron AA, 75 cron AA (after about f/4), and the 90 cron AA, and all of these lenses are quite small for their focal length and although they are very expensive only the 50 cron AA is more than $3,000. And if you want a 35 without a zone B dip, then the Zeiss ZM f/1.4 is very much in the league of these lenses as well. With the Kolari conversion all these work well on the Sony cameras and although the 21, 24, and 28 may show some colour shift issues these can easily be handed in lightroom with a plug in. So yes, it is possible to have very high IQ and small lenses, but it will cost you and you have to be fine with manual focus.
p.10 #11 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
The 85mm 1.8 will be based on same formulaa as the 55mm 1.8. In other words it will be amazing! Zeiss and Sony have an agreement that they cannot step on each others foot with lenses which is why we are seeing these in AF now. Sony has no pans for their own Zeiss branded versions.
The 85 will be a joy to use I should have one from Zeiss in May and will let you know what I think
p.10 #13 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
I don't know if I'll get any response but I posted a question in the Zeiss Blog asking about Batis and Loxia. As there's no Batis post there yet I posted it in the recent Loxia topic. The author is not a Ziess designer so I hope it will be picked up by someone in Zeiss.
"Hello, interesting article on the Loxia. Can you tell us how the Loxia and Batis line will work together? eg complementary (no duplicate lenses), or in parallel (both Loxia and Batis lenses to be released at the same FL)? Also, when will the Batis MTF be made available?"
p.10 #14 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
The first Batis MTF is going to be released in June, or May if you subscribe to Lloyd's blog. These Batus are made by a network of Zeiss' Japanese partners, according to Zeiss' response on their FB. I don't think they would comment about their future plan.
p.10 #15 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
According to SAR, Zeiss has confirmed that (as expected) these lenses are focus-by-wire. Not a surprise. No big deal, I already wasn't interested because I don't buy lenses without aperture rings.
However, they also confirmed that the Loxia are NOT focus-by-wire. Given how electronic everything mirrorless is (even "retro"-obsessed Fuji gave us fake aperture rings!!), I hadn't dared hope. I might buy that 50/2 now...love the soap bubble bokeh.
p.10 #16 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Steve Spencer wrote:
But there are quite a few modern Leica M lenses that don't have the Zone B dip on film, Leica M digital or even the a Sony with the Kolari conversion. These include the 21 SEM, 24 Elmar ASPH, 28 cron ASPH, 50 lux ASPH (after about f/4), 50 cron AA, 75 cron AA (after about f/4), and the 90 cron AA, and all of these lenses are quite small for their focal length and although they are very expensive only the 50 cron AA is more than $3,000. And if you want a 35 without a zone B dip, then the Zeiss ZM f/1.4 is very much in the league of these lenses as well. With the Kolari conversion all these work well on the Sony cameras and although the 21, 24, and 28 may show some colour shift issues these can easily be handed in lightroom with a plug in. So yes, it is possible to have very high IQ and small lenses, but it will cost you and you have to be fine with manual focus....Show more →
Hi, Steve. I was referring to faster than f2 M lenses, but I failed to mention that. The ZM 35/1.4 is a good example, I agree, but it's starting to get a bit long, being even longer than the 35 Lux Asph.
Maybe I wasn't making my point clear. I'm simply saying that, without a Leica sensor/Kolari mod, Sony has to make the fast FE lenses relatively long and telecentric. Now, we're even starting to see M lenses creep up in size these days, certainly compared to the 35 Lux Pre-asph and other older lenses, which I consider to be truly small.
That new FE 28 is only 15mm longer than a 28 Cron (when you include the extra 10mm of registration distance in the equation,) but it's the diameter that really makes it look large, and unfortunately, AF lenses have to deal with a lot more internal electronics, making them fatter.
p.10 #17 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
It's interesting that in talking about larger lenses, different people seem to care more about length, width or weight.
One of the reasons I sold my F mount CV 90/3.5 and got an M mount CV 90/3.5 is that the M mount version is very narrow compared to the F mount version (although a similar length with adapters) and allows me to use a more compact bag.
p.10 #19 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
My money (probably quite literally) is on a series of Batis lenses, with the far smaller niche manual focus range seeing lower priority than the new line. [How could a new range of fabulously specified lenses be seen as a distraction, I don;t see the reasoning as you have more choice, no?]
Given the elapsed time taken for the slightly modified Loxias to appear - in what seemed like an exercise to recycle modified ZMs as sensor-friendly new age optics for a rather hefty price - the high tech Batises are out the door fast, and they fill the two giant gaps in FE thoughtfully left absent by Sony - high IQ but 'affordable' everyman prime lenses of the right lens speed at the accepted and critical FLs of 25 and 85.
I suspect what many are unhappy is the potential for Batis to crowd out what they saw as the narrow Zeiss purity angle - attaching to old school manual focus lenses, aimed squarely at Leicaphiles.
Here Zeiss appear to be drawing a thick line between high end new designs aimed at working photographers who need AF and can use stabilization; and the core enthusiast market as it has morphed into Sony's a7 arena. Or so it seemed.
p.10 #20 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
But - that latter MF enthusiast niche is a spin off, a by catch if you will, of the true reason for Loxia - video applications.
Not many people pay attention to PR releases in a world seemingly run on hype - you should in the case of Zeiss. You don't even need to read between the lines in Zeiss's Loxia 35mm web page:
Every para makes mentions the video orientation. The word 'video' is used six times. And:
'Ideal for filmmaking as well as still pictures.'
'Using the silent aperture change.'
'Optional switchable aperture lock'
'the new ZEISS Loxia lenses 2/35 and 2/50 are optimally suited to video recordings: their compact size enables the cameraman to work unobtrusively from various angles and thus avoid disrupting the scenery. This makes them the perfect companion for documentaries and high-quality reports.'
'Movie makers who are fans of the Sony FS7 will be amazed by these lenses'.
