p.11 #1 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
philip_pj wrote:
My money (probably quite literally) is on a series of Batis lenses, with the far smaller niche manual focus range seeing lower priority than the new line. [How could a new range of fabulously specified lenses be seen as a distraction, I don;t see the reasoning as you have more choice, no?]
Given the elapsed time taken for the slightly modified Loxias to appear - in what seemed like an exercise to recycle modified ZMs as sensor-friendly new age optics for a rather hefty price - the high tech Batises are out the door fast, and they fill the two giant gaps in FE thoughtfully left absent by Sony - high IQ but 'affordable' everyman prime lenses of the right lens speed at the accepted and critical FLs of 25 and 85.
I suspect what many are unhappy is the potential for Batis to crowd out what they saw as the narrow Zeiss purity angle - attaching to old school manual focus lenses, aimed squarely at Leicaphiles.
Here Zeiss appear to be drawing a thick line between high end new designs aimed at working photographers who need AF and can use stabilization; and the core enthusiast market as it has morphed into Sony's a7 arena. Or so it seemed.
p.11 #2 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Batis literature is thin on the ground until closer to release, but in the one page Zeiss have up we have:
'NEW PRO ERA' (yes, in caps. ;-) 'the pioneers of a new era' 'As professional tools, they enable outstanding outcomes with optimal image performance' 'are the perfect match for the existing lenses offered for the system'. 'OLED display shows the distance of the focal plane from the camera system and the depth of fields, therefore ideally supporting creative image composition.'
So - professional tools=AF/OIS; new era = more to come; high performance; a good fit to the 'other (FE) lenses'; and a creative tool for 'image composition' = stills imaging. All backed up what we see already, and the very appealing specs sheets.
And not to forget the ace in the hole: clean Otus styling, for cross range brand recognition - 'Is that an Otus on your body? Wow, neat, dude!' Steve and Lloyd may/may not like them, but I guarantee many ex C/N people sure will, and they buy many more a7 cameras than readers of LC, SR and SH do. Remember whose lunch Sony and Zeiss want to eat.
p.11 #5 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
I think it's now actually pretty clear how Zeiss have positioned things.
Otus and Batis are their "Pro" lenses, with Otus being no-compromise and Batis being merely "excellent" but adding AF and OIS, which are things that many pros will desire.
Loxia are for niche hobbyists (I'm not meaning that as a put-down) and rangefinder converts, and amateur video.
The Z* lenses, well they already exist of course so they are what they are.
p.11 #6 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Jorge Torralba wrote:
These are 100% zeiss. No sony involvement.
There seems to be conflicting information, according to Heipphoto's post: The first Batis MTF is going to be released in June, or May if you subscribe to Lloyd's blog. These Batus are made by a network of Zeiss' Japanese partners, according to Zeiss' response on their FB.
I would guess that Zeiss does not have the AF or OIS technology in house. Also likely they don't have the production capacity? "Japanese partners" doesn't guarantee they will be made in Japan
p.11 #7 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
pdmphoto wrote:
There seems to be conflicting information, according to Heipphoto's post:
I would guess that Zeiss does not have the AF or OIS technology in house. Also likely they don't have the production capacity? "Japanese partners" doesn't guarantee they will be made in Japan
I don't see any conflicting info. Sony doesn't make these. Zeiss would not directly say Cosina is making these, so I don't know. But certainly, they say these lenses are made in Japan.
p.11 #8 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
More from CZ, they are answering qus at their FB page:
'There will be further focal lenghts. However, we don't want to publish any details yet!'
'..please keep in mind that our Batis lenses have been primarily designed for still photography and are only to a limited extent suitable for video.'
for those who know of Eric Chan, this is a nice one:
Q: 'Eric Chan: The 85mm has optical image stabilisation?'
A: Yes, Sir! ;-)
'I wonder if the DOF scale is electronically selectable to display either meters or feet?'
'Yes, it is.'
'For focusing on subjects near or at infinity, the display of Batis lenses will show the infinity symbol in the centre. On the left side the DOF display will show the closest distance that will be within the DOF, depending on the selected aperture, the focused distance, and the camera model in use.'
'In addition, the development of autofocus lenses requires close collaboration with the camera manufacturer in order to ensure full compatibility with the relevant camera system. In its collaboration with Canon and Nikon, ZEISS is currently not licensed to use the autofocus interface on the camera.'
[Can't have competition for our own lenses, can we, Canon and Nikon...;-)]
'The OLED displays are not limited in their lifetime. After many years of intensive use, they will become darker. If sometime they might be difficult to read, they can be easily exchanged by our ZEISS service.'
p.11 #9 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
For the record Loxia lenses with MF are not just for "enthusiast" or only for videographers. They are great tools that help you think through composition and the creation of great STILL images.
That said my Batis lenses are on pre-order. For FE I'm not sure there will be any other lenses I will need but may consider the 90mm and the 35mm f/1.4 some time in the future. May be a Loxia 21mm
p.11 #10 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
When I first saw the announcement for these Batis lenses I got excited about the prospect of new Zeiss glass for my A7ii. Then I remembered Zeiss only does MF lenses for us A7 users and I closed the web page. I rely on AF lenses for the majority of my shooting and turn to cheaper legacy glass for MF fun. After closing the web page, I thought I'd still like to read the announcement so I opened it back up. I was shocked to find a pair of AF lenses, in perfect focal lengths, with OLED screens and one with image stabilization. Lacking a good semi-wide, I pre-ordered the Batis 25/2 and I'll wait to see how the 85/1.8 performs before buying it, too.
I don't think these AF lenses could have come at a better time for the A7 market. There are a lot of people on the fence when it comes to ditching their DSLR gear for a portable full-frame mirrorless setup. The biggest holdback has been lens availability and lack of commitment from major lens manufacturers. I shot an A7 setup alongside my D800 and assorted gear and ultimately decided to sell off the Sony. I almost immediately regretted the decision and bought an A7ii and Sony 55/35 combo. These new Batis lenses will likely keep me shooting Sony/Zeiss for a long time. I'm sure Zeiss' commitment to the FE mount, with both MF and AF lenses, will push others over the edge, too. Now hopefully the lenses live up to their name.
Reading through this thread and others, there are a lot of complaints from the Loxia crowd. I don't think the Batis lineup threatens the Loxia lineup at all. Reading some comments from Zeiss reps, it's pretty clear they're marketing these lens families to two different crowds; the Loxia being geared towards video users (though still perfectly capable for stills) and the Batis geared towards still photography. Zeiss has confirmed on FB that there will be future focal lengths added to the Loxia lineup:
Carl Zeiss Lenses: Hi Pedrography! No, Batis is a completely new family of lenses. However, there will be further focal lengths in the Loxia familiy!
I think it's pretty fair and exciting for all of us. Release two great MF Loxia lenses followed by 2 (hopefully)great AF Batis lenses.
p.11 #11 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
I don't understand this talk of Loxia being less than ideal for stills just because the press release talked a lot about motion. It's not like the aperture and focus rings are geared for a follow focus rather than hand-holdable. These are still stills (sorry) lenses. The only motion-exclusive feature is the clickless aperture and that can be readily disabled. As far as I can see Loxia are just as good for mirrorless manual focus stills as ZF are for DSLR manual focus stills.
p.11 #12 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
It's not 'either or', of course, Lee. It's how the makers positions their products in the marketplace, but no doubt more Loxias have been bought by stills users, you'd reckon.
Zeiss's decision to provide options to many kinds of buyers is to be applauded surely. Some people seem to opt for freedom from choice whereas many will prefer freedom of choice. ;-)
Zeiss selling AF lenses - when 95% of photographers see them as absolutely integral to their activity - is a huge business opportunity compared with designing and making even a full range (say 8-10) of Loxia lenses, at great expense and opportunity cost, and given the mass market take on AF, stagnation.
Their shareholders would be unhappy if they knew the board had the chance to market to the *whole demographic* and chose instead to sell only to the 5% of it who buy manual focus lenses. Zeiss would be consigning themselves to a small niche with boutique status and appeal, when they are the very best people to make AF lenses for the community, the very people Sony is trying to attract.
Apr 25, 2015 at 06:42 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.11 #13 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Lee Saxon wrote:
I don't understand this talk of Loxia being less than ideal for stills just because the press release talked a lot about motion. It's not like the aperture and focus rings are geared for a follow focus rather than hand-holdable. These are still stills (sorry) lenses. The only motion-exclusive feature is the clickless aperture and that can be readily disabled. As far as I can see Loxia are just as good for mirrorless manual focus stills as ZF are for DSLR manual focus stills.
I think it may come down to whether the lenses are made to have the resolution that will be required for a 50mp FF camera and whether they will develop the lenses to have great across the frame sharpness. If the lenses are designed primarily for video those issues won't be a concern, but if they are designed for still they probably will be. IMO, the Loxia 50 does stand up well for stills use, but the 35 while quite good for many types of stills applications does not have the across the frame sharpness that Zeiss probably would have delivered if it was designed primarily for stills. Don't get me wrong the Loxia 35 is still a very good lens, it just could be quite a bit better in the edges and corners at infinity, but that won't really be needed for video. I think if it was designed for stills it would be just that much better, and that is what some of us who want MF lenses designed for stills worry we might be missing in future loxia lenses.
p.11 #14 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
The only thing that this brings up is that customer relations and marketing folks don't usually talk to enginnering, and neither are involved with strategy talks. Marketing may have determined Loxia has a video emphasis because of the potential de-clicked aperture. It ha no true bearing on true intent, because unless word comes down from on high, no one, even Zeiss customer-facing groups, truly know. Not that it matters.
Lee Saxon wrote:
I don't understand this talk of Loxia being less than ideal for stills just because the press release talked a lot about motion. It's not like the aperture and focus rings are geared for a follow focus rather than hand-holdable. These are still stills (sorry) lenses. The only motion-exclusive feature is the clickless aperture and that can be readily disabled. As far as I can see Loxia are just as good for mirrorless manual focus stills as ZF are for DSLR manual focus stills.
p.11 #15 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
hiepphotog wrote:
I would love ultra small AF lenses (I don't think he's alone) but I can't see how either Zeiss or Sony would be able to do that. Heck, if Fuji comes out with an FF cam, no X-Trans, and makes small lenses like they are doing right now, I would sell my Sony gear and go there. As I see it, only Leica can consistently churn out small, fast aperture lenses. But they do have an advantage of having thinner sensor filter stack and being able to ask for astronomical price. Fuji is getting big with their lenses, but they have the potential. Too bad, Fuji is a much less successful player to venture into the FF arena. Anyway, though neither AF nor optical design for excellent IQ nor OIS is solely responsible for the bigger size of FE lenses, it's the combination of all of them together with the inexperience in miniaturizing optics, IMO, that force Sony's hands....Show more →
It would be nice if Zeiss took something from the Leica play book and used fewer elements and special glasses for many of their designs to make smaller lenses rather than adding more and more elements to the lens designs that are resulting in larger and larger and heavier lenses.
Rich
Apr 25, 2015 at 10:15 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.11 #16 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
I think an interesting issues now is what is the "large aperture prime" that is on Sony's roadmap for 2015. I had wrongly assumed that it would be an 85 f/1.8, but that seems quite unlikely now. Will it be a 100 f/2, a 135 f/2 or f/1.8, a faster 25, 50, or 85? It actually is hard to guess. I suppose a 135 is mostly likely, but my wish would be a plain Sony 100 f/2 based on the Minolta AF 100 f/2 that comes in at a moderate price. The Zeiss Batis 85 f/1.8 looks fantastic and I would still likely get it, but a beautiful rendering, smaller and cheaper 100 f/2 would be awfully tempting.
p.11 #17 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
A faster 50 or 85?
naturephoto1 wrote:
It would be nice if Zeiss took something from the Leica play book and used fewer elements and special glasses form many of their designs to make smaller lenses rather than adding more and more elements to the lens designs that are resulting in larger and larger and heavier lenses.
Rich
Well, there's always hoping they update a few of the ZMs and they play nice with Kolari-modded sensors... But it is Zeiss's stated philosophy of lens relaxation through use of more elements that is the opposite of Leica's M-series philosophy.
These Batis lenses look nice... here's hoping future Sony cameras will have decent follow-focus AF. How is the a7II relative to the a7/R/S in this respect?
p.11 #18 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
rscheffler wrote:
A faster 50 or 85?
Well, there's always hoping they update a few of the ZMs and they play nice with Kolari-modded sensors... But it is Zeiss's stated philosophy of lens relaxation through use of more elements that is the opposite of Leica's M-series philosophy.
These Batis lenses look nice... here's hoping future Sony cameras will have decent follow-focus AF. How is the a7II relative to the a7/R/S in this respect?
Hi Ron.
Unfortunately it seems that Zeiss may not have much or any concern particularly for many of us that are aging and not being willing or able to carry the kind of weight for our lenses that we did when we were younger.
p.11 #19 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
naturephoto1 wrote:
Unfortunately it seems that Zeiss may not have much or any concern particularly for many of us that are aging and not being willing or able to carry the kind of weight for our lenses that we did when we were younger.
Personally, I prefer smaller lenses, but I'm not sure I understand your complaint about the weight. With the 25/2 at 335 grams and the 85/1.8 at 475 grams, I would think you would be happy with the weight of these lenses.
p.11 #20 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Jeff Kott wrote:
Personally, I prefer smaller lenses, but I'm not sure I understand your complaint about the weight. With the 25/2 at 335 grams and the 85/1.8 at 475 grams, I would think you would be happy with the weight of these lenses.
For some of the Zeiss lens the weight may be OK. But there is still a question of size and volume, the lack or an aperture ring and MF by wire that many of us do not like as well. Granted the Zeiss 85mm is an f1.8 lens, my Leica M 90mm f2.5 Summarit lens is 115 grams lighter.
