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Archive 2015 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

sebboh
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p.33 #1 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

Tariq Gibran wrote:
I don't think we are likely to see redesigns of some of the true classics due to cost (one of the reasons often cited for the demise of the original Sonnars). For instance, look at the older Sonnar designs. The closest we have is the ZM 50/1.5 and it's design does not replicate the original version as it uses only one single triplet group in the rear. There is nothing (current Zeiss) that replicates the design of the original Sonnar 50/1.5 or the Contarex 85/2 Sonnar that I'm aware of, both of which use cemented triplets in the front...Show more →

i don't mean replicating the design, i mean replicating the look, and i think zeiss did a good job of that with the zm 50/1.5 sonnar.

Jun 02, 2015 at 12:57 PM

ecarlino
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p.33 #2 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

the OLED seems it may be of some usefulness - and since it's already taking into consideration the sensor specs, aperture and focus distance - it might be interesting if there was a button (on the lens or camera) or a setting in the camera, to set the focus distance to the hyperfocal distance.

i realize HF can stir a lot of emotion in some (as evidenced by length threads that regularly get out of control) - but just because all of the capabilities are already at the developers finger tips, it seems like a very cheap additional feature to add.

or, maybe someone could write an 'app' for that which could be assigned to a custom button. (or maybe i'm a day late and that's already been done).

Jun 02, 2015 at 01:29 PM

adamdewilde
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p.33 #3 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

sebboh wrote:
argh! i can't even look at pictures from normal distance on a 72 ppi screen. i don't just see the pixels, i see the 3 separate colors of each pixel. it gives me a headache.

i was hoping that's what the loxia line would be (i don't want AF), but i don't really think the zm 35/2 or zm 50/2 as classic zeiss favorites. what other cult classics were you thinking of besides the c/y 35/1.4?

i was hoping for lenses with the looks of the contax g 21/2.8, contax g 28/2.8, c/y 35/1.4, zm 50/1.5 sonnar, and contarex 85/2 with modernized...Show more →

I have that problem with older monitors as well... Guess my eyes are better then I thought.

AF/MF aside. Talking about good zeiss lenses IMO, keep in mind I like things for my own reasons:
(and it's late, so I might be forgetting something I've owned, I have my personal lens comment list on my desktop computer that I'm not looking at.. So this is off the top of my head)

Contax C/Y:
28/2
35/1.4
100/2

Contax 645:
45/2.8 (mixed feelings)
80/2 (really mixed feelings, verging on "not a good lens")
120/4 Macro
140/2.8 (think it's more the format and length then actual fondness of lens)

Contax G:
28/2.8
45/2 (a bit quirky for my taste, but I'll leave it in)
90/2.8

Zeiss ZM:
21/2.8
25/2.8
35/2.8
50/1.5 (love/hate, when the bokeh is smooth I love, when it's jagged I'm not impressed, generally avoid bright spots on background)

Zeiss ZE/ZF/etc:
21/2.8 (I love me some moustache distortion)
25/2 (very 3D if there is such a thing)
35/2 (hate the bokeh, but one of the most 3D and lifelike rendering lenses, if there is such a thing)
35/1.4 (some reason, I like the C/Y better, couldn't tell you why. Maybe the bokeh is more textural on the C/Y)
50MPZE (This one you need to learn when/what to shoot with it, or the results can be bad)
85/1.4 (Actually wish this were better corrected, but in the right light conditions it's awesome)
100MPZE (awesome)
(Yes I love the ZE lenses. About once a year I email Zeiss asking if I can pay to have AF versions made. The responses range from NO to it's not possible for the design, to it's not within our current contractual/partnership rights.)

And I'm going to toss this out there... But nothing beats the Jupiter9 85mm if you get a good copy (good copy as in sharp at f/2). It's brilliant for older style rendering.. I wish they could take that lens and make it better (flare, sharpness, even performance) somehow without messing with it's close up to mid distance look.

Oh and I know we're talking Zeiss.. And I know you all know I'm really into Leica M (so many good lenses, old and new). And you can't fault anyone for loving the S-system lenses (35,70,120 AMAZING, also sure the others are good too). BUT I'm really falling back into love with the 35/1.4-R, 50/1.4-R lately... Been flickr stalking the lenses. In fact, I'm contemplating buying good copies of the three mentioned lenses, but I'm hesitant as I've spent all of 2015 thus far trying to minimise my lens collection.

Edited on Jun 02, 2015 at 02:29 PM · View previous versions

Jun 02, 2015 at 01:56 PM

Kalainen
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p.33 #4 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

adamdewilde wrote:
Briefly - I think they're more reminiscent of the 35/2 50/2 ZM lenses, but a bit more flat/dull. I feel they do well close up. As you start shooting subjects further away, they tend to flatten out, and seem even more dull. They don't really maintain that pop the more you move away from minimum focus. Also I feel the colors overall aren't fantastic.
To be fair, I had a week with the both of them (not the shortest period of time I've owned a lens though).

I will add props for the fact that they actually have texture to them.. As...Show more →
Thanks for your opinion. Having used both of them, I think they have very nice overall rendering (not plastic as you said). For me, they have great colors too, at least within my post processing procedure. But they are not without compromises. The 35 is looses contrast quite much wide open, too much for my taste. And the front-bokeh is pretty ugly with both (but the normal boheh is very nice in my eyes). I have never tried the ZM versions, so I can't compare to them.

-Toni

Jun 02, 2015 at 02:00 PM

sebboh
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p.33 #5 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

adamdewilde wrote:
I have that problem with older monitors as well... Guess my eyes are better then I thought.

AF/MF aside. Talking about good zeiss lenses IMO, keep in mind I like things for my own reasons:
(and it's late, so I might be forgetting something I've owned, I have my personal lens comment list on my desktop computer that I'm not looking at.. So this is off the top of my head)

Contax C/Y:
28/2
35/1.4
100/2

Contax 645:
45/2.8 (mixed feelings)
80/2 (really mixed feelings, verging on "not a good lens")
120/4 Macro
140/2.8 (think it's more the format and length then actual fondness of lens)

Contax G:
28/2.8
45/2 (a bit quirky for...Show more →

thanks! good read.

i agree on most of the lenses i've used (most except the medium format ones).

i also really like the j-9, shame about the build and lack of coatings, though i do think i like the 90 cron pre-asph better.

Jun 04, 2015 at 02:26 AM

adamdewilde
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p.33 #6 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

sebboh wrote:
thanks! good read.

i agree on most of the lenses i've used (most except the medium format ones).

i also really like the j-9, shame about the build and lack of coatings, though i do think i like the 90 cron pre-asph better.

I didn't get into Leica lenses.. Purposely out of respect for the Zeiss thread

I don't want to get started on Leica lenses.. It's a long list. Some really good lenses, and the funny thing, some are not good on paper, just good in use.

Jun 04, 2015 at 02:54 AM

philip_pj
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p.33 #7 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

LC has a few more images up, reiterates how sharp the 85 is, and uses f13-f14 for a few. This is nice to see as the trad CZ lenses work very well at small apertures and so does this one. It's so good its performance has a long way to fall, and even f16 will not be too bad. You get a quasi-Contarex profile almost, losing the top off low frequencies but getting a very settled even look. Sacrilegious I know, even to suggest, but what's the point of being conventional? ;-)

And good news at SAR for Sony system sales, refutes a lot of recent gloom, at least for FE/E. Some good age profiling and usage profiles, MILC/DSLR comparative data. All as could be expected actually - younger, less rusted on users, travel and family very prominent. Sony is benefiting from the bottom and middle outwards, a very different model to the trickle down, pro down to consumer DSLR model, now appearing to fall away with successive years of 17-18% decreases, in dollar terms at least. At least according to 'NPD Group'. Sure to be challenged, I guess. Looks to be US data.

Jun 04, 2015 at 07:19 AM

serhan_
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p.33 #8 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

Zeiss released official leaflet/specs:
zeiss.com/batis
http://www.zeiss.de/content/dam/Photography/new/pdf/brochures/batis/batis_leaflet_en.pdf
http://www.zeiss.com/content/dam/Photography/new/pdf/en/downloadcenter/datasheets_batis/batis_1885.pdf
http://www.zeiss.com/content/dam/Photography/new/pdf/en/downloadcenter/datasheets_batis/batis_1885.pdf

Chris's other flickr shots:
ZEISS Batis 1.8/85
ZEISS Batis 2/25
ZEISS Batis - works

Jun 15, 2015 at 06:05 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.33 #9 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

serhan_ wrote:
Zeiss released official leaflet/specs:
zeiss.com/batis
http://www.zeiss.de/content/dam/Photography/new/pdf/brochures/batis/batis_leaflet_en.pdf
http://www.zeiss.com/content/dam/Photography/new/pdf/en/downloadcenter/datasheets_batis/batis_1885.pdf
http://www.zeiss.com/content/dam/Photography/new/pdf/en/downloadcenter/datasheets_batis/batis_1885.pdf

Chris's other flickr shots:
ZEISS Batis 1.8/85
ZEISS Batis 2/25
ZEISS Batis - works

Seeing the lens designs is nice. I really like the look of the 85 f/1.8 design. Clearly based on a Sonnar design. Three elements with special glass, a floating element, and no asphericals. I have good hope for this lens. The 25 looks nice too. A lot more special glass and 5 aspherical surfaces, but that is needed I suppose to both keep it small and to get performance that wide.

Jun 15, 2015 at 08:47 AM

Matt Grum
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p.33 #10 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

Matt Grum wrote:
Given that it wouldn't be the first 11/8 design in history, nor the first 85mm f/1.8* I think it's far to early to say whether this is anything other than a coincidence. But it does generate a lot of extra clicks for SAR...

And now that Zeiss have published the block diagram of the Batis 85mm it is the appropriate time to say: yes this is the lens in the Tamron patent.

Makes sense that design was outsourced to Tamron given that Zeiss have limited experience with AF, and even less with IS, whilst Tamron have plenty of both. We are in an age where names and badged mean very little.

Jun 15, 2015 at 09:27 AM

GMPhotography
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p.33 #11 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

It's really about the glass itself and the quality of the glass process not the manufacturing of putting a lens together. This is Leicas BIG claim to fame is the glass they use is very high quality glass from the very beginning. Most folks completely over look the glass process itself.

Jun 15, 2015 at 09:43 AM

GMPhotography
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p.33 #12 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

Jun 15, 2015 at 09:43 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.33 #13 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

Matt Grum wrote:
And now that Zeiss have published the block diagram of the Batis 85mm it is the appropriate time to say: yes this is the lens in the Tamron patent.

Makes sense that design was outsourced to Tamron given that Zeiss have limited experience with AF, and even less with IS, whilst Tamron have plenty of both. We are in an age where names and badged mean very little.

Matt,

The diagrams are certainly similar. Enough so, that I would think Zeiss may have started with the design in the Tamron patent, but there are a couple of differences. The first is obvious and what Guy, was referring to. The Zeiss lens has 3 elements that are "special" glass. The Tamron patent does not specify any such elements. These elements with "special" glass could well have been a significant contribution made by Zeiss. Second, the Tamron patent specifies the floating element is made by 5th element from the front, whereas the Sony lens (at least if I am interpreting it right) seems to indicate by the box that the floating element is the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th elements. So, although similar in design, I don't think it makes sense to call them the same. It seems quite plausible that Zeiss at least modified the design to a significant extent.

Jun 15, 2015 at 10:07 AM

GMPhotography
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p.33 #14 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

It's common in all industries to license a patent and as a inventor of a patent a very desirable business move.

Jun 15, 2015 at 10:14 AM

Matt Grum
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p.33 #15 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

Steve Spencer wrote:
The diagrams are certainly similar. Enough so, that I would think Zeiss may have started with the design in the Tamron patent, but there are a couple of differences. The first is obvious and what Guy, was referring to. The Zeiss lens has 3 elements that are "special" glass. The Tamron patent does not specify any such elements.

You can't swap the glass types without significantly changing the design, unless the compounds have exactly the same refractive index. It's probably the case that the patent is not required to specify glass types for this reason.

Steve Spencer wrote:
Second, the Tamron patent specifies the floating element is made by 5th element from the front, whereas the Sony lens (at least if I am interpreting it right) seems to indicate by the box that the floating element is the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th elements.

The box is part of the lens barrel outline and marks where the OLED screen is, nothing to do with indicating a floating group.

Steve Spencer wrote:
So, although similar in design, I don't think it makes sense to call them the same. It seems quite plausible that Zeiss at least modified the design to a significant extent.

They're more than just "similar" - you can lay the block diagrams on top of each other and they overlap almost perfectly, I think it's more likely that Zeiss hired Tamron to design the lens as a means to get more FE lenses out more quickly, rather than Zeiss buying an existing design to use as a base and modifying it...

It's not hard to imagine the three companies working together on this. Fleshing out the lens lineup is clearly a priority for Sony, but they lack resources to do it all by themselves.

Jun 15, 2015 at 10:19 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.33 #16 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

Matt Grum wrote:
You can't swap the glass types without significantly changing the design, unless the compounds have exactly the same refractive index. It's probably the case that the patent is not required to specify glass types for this reason.

The box is part of the lens barrel outline and marks where the OLED screen is.

You can lay the block diagrams on top of each other and they overlap almost perfectly, I think it's more likely that Zeiss hired Tamron to design the lens as a means to get more FE lenses out more quickly, rather than Ziess buying an existing design to...Show more →

I don't think either of us are really privy to information that would resolve this debate. Personally, I think it is more likely that Zeiss bought or due to their relationship with Tamron were given/traded for the patent rights and developed the lens themselves. It is the special glass which is one of Zeiss' specialties that makes me hold this point of view and yes using special glass would modify the design significantly in terms of output and that is why it would be used.

Jun 15, 2015 at 10:23 AM

GMPhotography
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p.33 #17 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

Im in the camp they have partnered up between the three of them to make these lenses I have absolutely no issue with that myself. Zeiss uses Cosina of Japan to build a bunch of there line. This is very common. Hassy/Fuji, Phase /Mamiya, Rollie/Schnedier, Leica/Minolta at one time, Leica/Panasonic. The list goes on. What bugs me though is people freaking out because there lens is made in Asia somewhere and not Germany. Frankly thats just being naive as this is a global economy and many partnerships and manufacturing places are joined at the hip.

Jun 15, 2015 at 10:40 AM

edwardkaraa
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p.33 #18 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

I'm with Guy. If it walks and talks like a duck, it's a duck. It wouldn't be the first time zeiss buys or commissions a lens design. They've done it since Contax days.

Jun 15, 2015 at 10:53 AM

mogul
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p.33 #19 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

The only thing different about whether it is Zeiss lens or a Tamron is the price bonus for the little blue sticker.

Jun 15, 2015 at 10:57 AM

philber
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p.33 #20 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount

I think many people don't realize how deep the "global economy" runs, in that products are no longer defined by their label. Cars share platforms, airlines share codes and flights, etc. Even buying from a company that "goes it alone" doesn't guarantee that what you think you see is what you think you are getting. Just show Leica customers pictures of what actually goes on in Portugal Vs. Germany, and many may be unfavorably impressed.
But, as the French say, and it agrees with Edward: don't mind the flask, as long as drunkenness is there...

Jun 15, 2015 at 11:20 AM

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