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Archive 2015A7rII rumour
p.7 #1A7rII rumour
This talk of Sony 'pro' cameras is quite laughable. I don't see why any manufacturer would be stupid enough to compete with Canon and NIkon for the constantly shrinking 'pro' market. Although I'd agree, as someone mentioned, maybe the pro's they could be after are the dentists/doctors and lawyers.
When Minolta, Pentax, Olympus, Leica and Contax, with their extensive (film) systems developed over years and even decades, were ALL utterly incapable of competing with professional (film) systems from Canon and Nikon, why would Sony be able to do it now? A 'pro' camera is not worth a pinch of shit without a pro system (ie. all the paraphernalia required for customising the camera for a wide range of applications) and the support around it. Look at the Pentax LX, the Contax RTS series, or the Leica R8/9. Great cameras, great lenses, piss poor 'pro' systems and/or support (you need both). That's why Canon and Nikon are foremost in this field and that's why the likes of Minolta, Pentax, Olympus, Leica and Contax, all with beautiful cameras and lenses, were never able to get a decent cut of the pro action. Digital won't change any of that either.
When Minolta, Pentax, Olympus, Leica and Contax, with their extensive (film) systems developed over years and even decades, were ALL utterly incapable of competing with professional (film) systems from Canon and Nikon, why would Sony be able to do it now? A 'pro' camera is not worth a pinch of shit without a pro system (ie. all the paraphernalia required for customising the camera for a wide range of applications) and the support around it. Look at the Pentax LX, the Contax RTS series, or the Leica R8/9. Great cameras, great lenses, piss poor 'pro' systems and/or support (you need both). That's why Canon and Nikon are foremost in this field and that's why the likes of Minolta, Pentax, Olympus, Leica and Contax, all with beautiful cameras and lenses, were never able to get a decent cut of the pro action. Digital won't change any of that either.
Mar 20, 2015 at 05:21 AM
p.7 #2A7rII rumour
JohnJ wrote:
This talk of Sony 'pro' cameras is quite laughable. I don't see why any manufacturer would be stupid enough to compete with Canon and NIkon for the constantly shrinking 'pro' market. Although I'd agree, as someone mentioned, maybe the pro's they could be after are the dentists/doctors and lawyers.
When Minolta, Pentax, Olympus, Leica and Contax, with their extensive (film) systems developed over years and even decades, were ALL utterly incapable of competing with professional (film) systems from Canon and Nikon, why would Sony be able to do it now? A 'pro' camera is not worth a pinch of shit without...Show more →
I basically agree, but when FF mirrorless becomes the norm there is a short window of opportunity: because a Canon will have to start from scratch. But they will still have a big inventory to use on adapters. If Sony want to sell to working photogs that's their window and they need to work towards it. They seem to want to - they have started Canon style professional programs with loaners, expedited repair etc in many countries. Maybe they are trying to do what Olympus did very successfully inthe O M days. Give the illusion of a flourishing professional market by targeting a few high profile art photographers who use their ( very good) stuff and hoping people think it's thetip on an iceberg, thus creating a halo effect for everyone else..
Mar 20, 2015 at 05:30 AM
p.7 #3A7rII rumour
I attended a photogroup workshop two weeks ago which was co-sponsored by Sony to promote mirrorless cameras. More people showed up than expected for this event - later in the early afternoon some of the additional workshop seminars (using mirrorless cameras for landscape, portrait, and macro photography) had to be moved into a larger room. The first thing which amazed me in the morning were several amateur photographers who carried bags with all or a lot of their DSLR gear in it to get a quote from KEH (which had a booth there) and trade it in for Sony mirrorless gear. The reasoning behind was always the same - smaller and more compact camera which weighs less than a bulky DSLR boddy to swing around.
I did not meet any professional photographers there - the bulk of the crowd were all amateurs ranging from late 20s to 70s in age. More senior photographers were mostly concerned with the quality of the EVF - some claimed that they prefer much more an optical viewfinder.
Sony lenses also hit a lot of interest, but I heard comments that they were too expensive and too big in size. The majority of questions was about adaptability and performance of existing DSLR lenses to Sony mirrorless cameras. My impression was that many wanted to add a Sony NEX or A7 series camera to the existing DSLR gear but not to fully get rid of the DSLR yet.
In general, the A7 II caught a lot of interest and most people liked the bigger grip and improved ergonomics (I didn't, but I admit that I was a minority in this regard - nevertheless it wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me either in a new A7/A9 camera).
Many attendants didn't seem to be aware that they could use all kind of MF lenses with the FF mirrorless cameras. I didn't meet a single person there who also uses rangefinder lenses in combination with the A7 series as I do - compared to the "mass" of people, this still seems to be a small niche.
I did not meet any professional photographers there - the bulk of the crowd were all amateurs ranging from late 20s to 70s in age. More senior photographers were mostly concerned with the quality of the EVF - some claimed that they prefer much more an optical viewfinder.
Sony lenses also hit a lot of interest, but I heard comments that they were too expensive and too big in size. The majority of questions was about adaptability and performance of existing DSLR lenses to Sony mirrorless cameras. My impression was that many wanted to add a Sony NEX or A7 series camera to the existing DSLR gear but not to fully get rid of the DSLR yet.
In general, the A7 II caught a lot of interest and most people liked the bigger grip and improved ergonomics (I didn't, but I admit that I was a minority in this regard - nevertheless it wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me either in a new A7/A9 camera).
Many attendants didn't seem to be aware that they could use all kind of MF lenses with the FF mirrorless cameras. I didn't meet a single person there who also uses rangefinder lenses in combination with the A7 series as I do - compared to the "mass" of people, this still seems to be a small niche.
Mar 20, 2015 at 05:34 AM
p.7 #4A7rII rumour
Because of limits on computing power there will be a tradeoff between mega pixels and frames per second. A 50 mp camera can probably only realistically be 5 fps, a 36 mp camera can probably only be 7 fps, and a 24 mp camera can only be 10 or 11 fps.
If you are Sony what route do you pick for the A9? Would a wedding pro really prefer a 50mp 5 fps body? I don't know, but If I were a wedding I know I wouldn't need the resolution from a 50 mp file. I wouldn't need more than 5 fps either, but if given the choice I would prefer the fps as that might help prevent missing the critical kiss shot or ring going on the finger. Wedding pros are quite happy with a 5D MK IIII because they don't need high resolution or fps and many like to hold costs down, but there are some who will pony up for the 1DX or D4 because they like the high fps. I would see the high fps lower mp count camera as being a lot better for wedding pros and generally any photographer that shoots events and that of course includes photojournalists as well.
Think also about the huge factor of price comparison. If Sony makes the A9 as a competitor for the 1DX and D4 those bodies are $6,000 retail. A rugged A9 with 36mp and 7 fps or 24mp and 10 or 11 fps could easily undercut the Canon and Nikon prices. It could come in a $3,500 or so in price most likely. That could be a compelling option for wedding photographers and many others. They would be in the fast fps game at a much lower price point.
If they paired that with a 50mp A7r II, then they could undercut Canon and Nikon on there 50 MP cameras. The 5Ds/r is almost $4,000. A 50mp A7r II could easily come in at $2,500 and have IBIS to boot. If someone wants a 50mp camera for large landscape prints or studio work, they can certainly live with the lower fps of the A7r II and they will get a much better sensor (which matters a lot to these folks) and they will save a lot of money.
Sony can compete in both markets because they can bring in a camera at a much lower price point, and many pros are very sensitive to price.
That's my take. I could easily be wrong about what pros would like and even more easily be wrong about what Sony will do, but I think it is the smart strategy. When a market is growing slowly or even contracting as I see the camera market doing you have to steal market share if you don't have it and to do so you have to be able to significantly undercut the competitors on price. Mirrorless seems to allow Sony to do so and I think they should try to do that across all market segments that they can and I think they can for the high fps camera with lower mp.
Edited on Mar 20, 2015 at 05:45 AM · View previous versions
If you are Sony what route do you pick for the A9? Would a wedding pro really prefer a 50mp 5 fps body? I don't know, but If I were a wedding I know I wouldn't need the resolution from a 50 mp file. I wouldn't need more than 5 fps either, but if given the choice I would prefer the fps as that might help prevent missing the critical kiss shot or ring going on the finger. Wedding pros are quite happy with a 5D MK IIII because they don't need high resolution or fps and many like to hold costs down, but there are some who will pony up for the 1DX or D4 because they like the high fps. I would see the high fps lower mp count camera as being a lot better for wedding pros and generally any photographer that shoots events and that of course includes photojournalists as well.
Think also about the huge factor of price comparison. If Sony makes the A9 as a competitor for the 1DX and D4 those bodies are $6,000 retail. A rugged A9 with 36mp and 7 fps or 24mp and 10 or 11 fps could easily undercut the Canon and Nikon prices. It could come in a $3,500 or so in price most likely. That could be a compelling option for wedding photographers and many others. They would be in the fast fps game at a much lower price point.
If they paired that with a 50mp A7r II, then they could undercut Canon and Nikon on there 50 MP cameras. The 5Ds/r is almost $4,000. A 50mp A7r II could easily come in at $2,500 and have IBIS to boot. If someone wants a 50mp camera for large landscape prints or studio work, they can certainly live with the lower fps of the A7r II and they will get a much better sensor (which matters a lot to these folks) and they will save a lot of money.
Sony can compete in both markets because they can bring in a camera at a much lower price point, and many pros are very sensitive to price.
That's my take. I could easily be wrong about what pros would like and even more easily be wrong about what Sony will do, but I think it is the smart strategy. When a market is growing slowly or even contracting as I see the camera market doing you have to steal market share if you don't have it and to do so you have to be able to significantly undercut the competitors on price. Mirrorless seems to allow Sony to do so and I think they should try to do that across all market segments that they can and I think they can for the high fps camera with lower mp.
Edited on Mar 20, 2015 at 05:45 AM · View previous versions
Mar 20, 2015 at 05:44 AM
p.7 #5A7rII rumour
retrofocus wrote:
I attended a photogroup workshop two weeks ago which was co-sponsored by Sony to promote mirrorless cameras. More people showed up than expected for this event - later in the early afternoon some of the additional workshop seminars (using mirrorless cameras for landscape, portrait, and macro photography) had to be moved into a larger room. The first thing which amazed me in the morning were several amateur photographers who carried bags with all or a lot of their DSLR gear in it to get a quote from KEH (which had a booth there) and trade it in for Sony mirrorless...Show more →
The proverbial guy in the camera shop (actually the owner of the highest end shop I my town who amongst other things is the biggest local Leica shop) says it's one in two hundred A7 series people or even fewer that put RF lenses on their Sonys. Far more adapt SLR lenses - presumably ones they already had on th whole. So I doing think there's any hope of Sony taking steps to make their bodies more RF lens friendly.
Mar 20, 2015 at 05:45 AM
p.7 #6A7rII rumour
Steve Spencer wrote:
Because of limits on computing power there will be a tradeoff between mega pixels and frames per second. A 50 mp camera can probably only realistically be 5 fps, a 36 mp camera can probably only be 7 fps, and a 24 mp camera can only be 10 or 11 fps.
If you are Sony what route do you pick for the A9? Would a wedding pro really prefer a 50mp 5 fps body? I don't know, but If I were a wedding I know I wouldn't need the resolution from a 50 mp file. I wouldn't need more...Show more →
See the thought. Andrea at SAR is pretty convinced though that the A7II will be the 36mp EFCS chip from the D810 and the A9 will be 50mp. But he could be wrong...
Mar 20, 2015 at 05:49 AM
p.7 #7A7rII rumour
DavidBM wrote:
Steve Spencer wrote
Because of limits on computing power there will be a tradeoff between mega pixels and frames per second. A 50 mp camera can probably only realistically be 5 fps, a 36 mp camera can probably only be 7 fps, and a 24 mp camera can only be 10 or 11 fps.If you are Sony what route do you pick for the A9? Would a wedding pro really prefer a 50mp 5 fps body? I don't know, but If I were a wedding I know I wouldn't need the resolution from a 50 mp file. I wouldn't need more than 5 fps either, but if given the choice I would prefer the fps as that might help prevent missing the critical kiss shot or ring going on the finger. Wedding pros are quite happy with a 5D MK IIII because they don't need high resolution or fps and many like to hold costs down, but there are some who will pony up for the 1DX or D4 because they like the high fps. I would see the high fps lower mp count camera as being a lot better for wedding pros and generally any photographer that shoots events and that of course includes photojournalists as well.
Think also about the huge factor of price comparison. If Sony makes the A9 as a competitor for the 1DX and D4 those bodies are $6,000 retail. A rugged A9 with 36mp and 7 fps or 24mp and 10 or 11 fps could easily undercut the Canon and Nikon prices. It could come in a $3,500 or so in price most likely. That could be a compelling option for wedding photographers and many others. They would be in the fast fps game at a much lower price point.
If they paired that with a 50mp A7r II, then they could undercut Canon and Nikon on there 50 MP cameras. The 5Ds/r is almost $4,000. A 50mp A7r II could easily come in at $2,500 and have IBIS to boot. If someone wants a 50mp camera for large landscape prints or studio work, they can certainly live with the lower fps of the A7r II and they will get a much better sensor (which matters a lot to these folks) and they will save a lot of money.
Sony can compete in both markets because they can bring in a camera at a much lower price point, and many pros are very sensitive to price.
That's my take. I could easily be wrong about what pros would like and even more easily be wrong about what Sony will do, but I think it is the smart strategy. When a market is growing slowly or even contracting as I see the camera market doing you have to steal market share if you don't have it and to do so you have to be able to significantly undercut the competitors on price. Mirrorless seems to allow Sony to do so and I think they should try to do that across all market segments that they can and I think they can for the high fps camera with lower mp.
At least on his site, however he seems to say he has no source for this belief and it is just his opinion. As such I think he is even acknowledging he could easily be wrong. Of course I could easily be wrong too.
Mar 20, 2015 at 06:05 AM
p.7 #8A7rII rumour
another factor is the evolving definition of "Pro". the last 10 years have seen core "pro" areas like journalism gutted at the same time that we are inundated with more imagery than in the days of large staff. Sony should be betting on what a "pro" does and how they do it in 2020. If C/N is looking back at it's legacy, Sony needs to create the impression that it will be the brand that breaks new ground and probably will put out tools that are compelling. They also need to prioritize ergonomics and fill in the holes.
Mar 20, 2015 at 06:28 AM
p.7 #9A7rII rumour
ecarlino wrote:
Matt, it's the same idiot with a new acct, probably bc even tho his first acct only had a few posts, everyone had already "ignored user" on it.
Yeah that was supposed to be a sarcastic reply to the fact he registered a new account to make that one post, but that's not easy to convey over the internet...
darbo wrote:
Just thinking here...even if the a9 could match the speed of a 1DX or D4S, would that even make it a compelling alternative to those cameras? Don't those flagship DSLRs shoot fast to cover action (sport and wildlife)? Even if the a9 was ultra-fast and had a rock-solid AF system, would it matter? No action photographer would ever buy one anyway because there are no FE super telephotos to support that sort of photography.
That makes perfect sense, when I said I thought they would probably make the A9 a lower MP high framerate camera, that was more a sense of foreboding than anything else! I hope they do make it a 50MP robust MF alternative instead.
picboy wrote:
Only advantage of a pro line is to make buyers of the lower lines feel good. Honda just got back in F1 for same reason. Marketing. Who knows where Sony will go. They have stated they want to dominate this segment
It's called a "halo" product when they do this, and it's quite common (Sigma 200-500mm f/2.8 anyone?)
Matt, it's the same idiot with a new acct, probably bc even tho his first acct only had a few posts, everyone had already "ignored user" on it.
Yeah that was supposed to be a sarcastic reply to the fact he registered a new account to make that one post, but that's not easy to convey over the internet...
darbo wrote:
Just thinking here...even if the a9 could match the speed of a 1DX or D4S, would that even make it a compelling alternative to those cameras? Don't those flagship DSLRs shoot fast to cover action (sport and wildlife)? Even if the a9 was ultra-fast and had a rock-solid AF system, would it matter? No action photographer would ever buy one anyway because there are no FE super telephotos to support that sort of photography.
That makes perfect sense, when I said I thought they would probably make the A9 a lower MP high framerate camera, that was more a sense of foreboding than anything else! I hope they do make it a 50MP robust MF alternative instead.
picboy wrote:
Only advantage of a pro line is to make buyers of the lower lines feel good. Honda just got back in F1 for same reason. Marketing. Who knows where Sony will go. They have stated they want to dominate this segment
It's called a "halo" product when they do this, and it's quite common (Sigma 200-500mm f/2.8 anyone?)
Mar 20, 2015 at 06:42 AM
p.7 #10A7rII rumour
JohnJ wrote:
This talk of Sony 'pro' cameras is quite laughable. I don't see why any manufacturer would be stupid enough to compete with Canon and NIkon for the constantly shrinking 'pro' market. Although I'd agree, as someone mentioned, maybe the pro's they could be after are the dentists/doctors and lawyers.
Canon sold a boatload of 5D3s and 1Ds to advanced amateur photographers, it's not a bad market to get into, especially with falling sales at the lower end. You don't have a be a doctor or a lawyer to afford one, in fact I know plenty of owners who aren't. It's all about priorities, if you make photography your #1, you can afford more than you'd think (I spent more on my last camera than I did on my car, but then again my bike cost more new than my camera... priorities!)
DavidBM wrote:
Andrea at SAR is pretty convinced though that the A7II will be the 36mp EFCS chip from the D810 and the A9 will be 50mp. But he could be wrong...
Putting the D810 sensor in the A7II body seems a very logical solution and a quick win for Sony, they can charge more for a high resolution 50MP body.
This talk of Sony 'pro' cameras is quite laughable. I don't see why any manufacturer would be stupid enough to compete with Canon and NIkon for the constantly shrinking 'pro' market. Although I'd agree, as someone mentioned, maybe the pro's they could be after are the dentists/doctors and lawyers.
Canon sold a boatload of 5D3s and 1Ds to advanced amateur photographers, it's not a bad market to get into, especially with falling sales at the lower end. You don't have a be a doctor or a lawyer to afford one, in fact I know plenty of owners who aren't. It's all about priorities, if you make photography your #1, you can afford more than you'd think (I spent more on my last camera than I did on my car, but then again my bike cost more new than my camera... priorities!)
DavidBM wrote:
Andrea at SAR is pretty convinced though that the A7II will be the 36mp EFCS chip from the D810 and the A9 will be 50mp. But he could be wrong...
Putting the D810 sensor in the A7II body seems a very logical solution and a quick win for Sony, they can charge more for a high resolution 50MP body.
Mar 20, 2015 at 06:48 AM
p.7 #11A7rII rumour
Lee Saxon wrote:
Hope the A7r II is a 36mp A7 II just like the A7r was a 36mp A7, that the whisperings of the A7r II and "A9" perhaps being one and the same are wrong. Still holding out hope for a full frame mirrorless with more reasonable battery life and a nice big grip.
I hope so too - I hope they follow the A7 -> A7II recipe with a few extras thrown in.
I don't think we'll get to a long battery life full frame mirrorless anytime soon without a body with a much larger battery - and even then it won't be very good compared to DSLRs. I've just resigned myself to buying 1 or 2 extra batteries for any of my mirrorless bodies - m43 or Sony A7r. The EVF and/or LCD just sucks the power (along with the constant sensor readout).
This is one area that Sony could really improve upon the A7r - options for enabling the EVF/LCD when I really want it on or off, not when the camera thinks it should be on or off. My GX7 does a far far better job of this. It would be a huge plus just to have near-instant startup so that simply turning the camera off and only having it on when needed would be far more workable.
Hope the A7r II is a 36mp A7 II just like the A7r was a 36mp A7, that the whisperings of the A7r II and "A9" perhaps being one and the same are wrong. Still holding out hope for a full frame mirrorless with more reasonable battery life and a nice big grip.
I hope so too - I hope they follow the A7 -> A7II recipe with a few extras thrown in.
I don't think we'll get to a long battery life full frame mirrorless anytime soon without a body with a much larger battery - and even then it won't be very good compared to DSLRs. I've just resigned myself to buying 1 or 2 extra batteries for any of my mirrorless bodies - m43 or Sony A7r. The EVF and/or LCD just sucks the power (along with the constant sensor readout).
This is one area that Sony could really improve upon the A7r - options for enabling the EVF/LCD when I really want it on or off, not when the camera thinks it should be on or off. My GX7 does a far far better job of this. It would be a huge plus just to have near-instant startup so that simply turning the camera off and only having it on when needed would be far more workable.
Mar 20, 2015 at 09:38 AM
p.7 #12A7rII rumour
jhinkey wrote:
I hope so too - I hope they follow the A7 -> A7II recipe with a few extras thrown in.
I don't think we'll get to a long battery life full frame mirrorless anytime soon without a body with a much larger battery - and even then it won't be very good compared to DSLRs. I've just resigned myself to buying 1 or 2 extra batteries for any of my mirrorless bodies - m43 or Sony A7r. The EVF and/or LCD just sucks the power (along with the constant sensor readout).
This is one area that Sony could really improve upon the...Show more →
I have found that I get better battery life with my Novoflex adapter and my R lenses and my Hawk's Factory Heiicoid with my M mount lenses than I do with my Phigment adapter (it has contact between the lens and the camera and implements magnification with M mount lens focus adjustment) and my M mount lenses. So, I would presume that battery life would be poorer still with any of the A7 series cameras and the FE FF lenses.
Rich
Edited on Mar 20, 2015 at 10:37 AM · View previous versions
Lee Saxon wrote
Hope the A7r II is a 36mp A7 II just like the A7r was a 36mp A7, that the whisperings of the A7r II and "A9" perhaps being one and the same are wrong. Still holding out hope for a full frame mirrorless with more reasonable battery life and a nice big grip.I don't think we'll get to a long battery life full frame mirrorless anytime soon without a body with a much larger battery - and even then it won't be very good compared to DSLRs. I've just resigned myself to buying 1 or 2 extra batteries for any of my mirrorless bodies - m43 or Sony A7r. The EVF and/or LCD just sucks the power (along with the constant sensor readout).
This is one area that Sony could really improve upon the...Show more →
I have found that I get better battery life with my Novoflex adapter and my R lenses and my Hawk's Factory Heiicoid with my M mount lenses than I do with my Phigment adapter (it has contact between the lens and the camera and implements magnification with M mount lens focus adjustment) and my M mount lenses. So, I would presume that battery life would be poorer still with any of the A7 series cameras and the FE FF lenses.
Rich
Edited on Mar 20, 2015 at 10:37 AM · View previous versions
Mar 20, 2015 at 10:21 AM
p.7 #13A7rII rumour
Matt Grum wrote:
Canon sold a boatload of 5D3s and 1Ds to advanced amateur photographers, it's not a bad market to get into, especially with falling sales at the lower end. You don't have a be a doctor or a lawyer to afford one, in fact I know plenty of owners who aren't. It's all about priorities, if you make photography your #1, you can afford more than you'd think (I spent more on my last camera than I did on my car, but then again my bike cost more new than my camera... priorities!)
Putting the D810 sensor in the A7II body...Show more →
The D810 chip works for me. Another 3/4 stop in DR, Native ISO 64, and no shutter shake. Sold.
Chris
JohnJ wrote
This talk of Sony 'pro' cameras is quite laughable. I don't see why any manufacturer would be stupid enough to compete with Canon and NIkon for the constantly shrinking 'pro' market. Although I'd agree, as someone mentioned, maybe the pro's they could be after are the dentists/doctors and lawyers.DavidBM wrote
Andrea at SAR is pretty convinced though that the A7II will be the 36mp EFCS chip from the D810 and the A9 will be 50mp. But he could be wrong...The D810 chip works for me. Another 3/4 stop in DR, Native ISO 64, and no shutter shake. Sold.
Chris
Mar 20, 2015 at 10:34 AM
p.7 #14A7rII rumour
Schlotkins wrote:
The D810 chip works for me. Another 3/4 stop in DR, Native ISO 64, and no shutter shake. Sold.
Chris
That would be great! The D810s dynamic range got a strong boost from the native ISO 64 setting.
The D810 chip works for me. Another 3/4 stop in DR, Native ISO 64, and no shutter shake. Sold.
Chris
That would be great! The D810s dynamic range got a strong boost from the native ISO 64 setting.
Mar 20, 2015 at 10:48 AM
p.7 #15A7rII rumour
Steve Spencer wrote:
Because of limits on computing power there will be a tradeoff between mega pixels and frames per second. A 50 mp camera can probably only realistically be 5 fps, a 36 mp camera can probably only be 7 fps, and a 24 mp camera can only be 10 or 11 fps.
I think making that assumption based on current DSLRs is partially flawed. I think DSLR fps limits are limited by how fast an affordable mirror box can get out of the way and the related issue of Continuous AF performance at least as much as by processing power.
It's also relevant that DSLR processing power limitations are not due to thermal limits. Samsung was able to give the NX1 considerably more processing power than far larger DSLRs (and exceed your estimates above). My cynical, "everything Canon/Nikon releases is a tiny iteration" side wants to say this is due to their laziness and or cheapness. But it could actually be that there's little point in a faster processor when you've already hit those mirror movement / Continuous AF limits. It could also be that, lacking a smartphone division, they can't match Samsung's design expertise in this area. But Sony probably could if they wanted to, so there may be cause for optimism.
Because of limits on computing power there will be a tradeoff between mega pixels and frames per second. A 50 mp camera can probably only realistically be 5 fps, a 36 mp camera can probably only be 7 fps, and a 24 mp camera can only be 10 or 11 fps.
I think making that assumption based on current DSLRs is partially flawed. I think DSLR fps limits are limited by how fast an affordable mirror box can get out of the way and the related issue of Continuous AF performance at least as much as by processing power.
It's also relevant that DSLR processing power limitations are not due to thermal limits. Samsung was able to give the NX1 considerably more processing power than far larger DSLRs (and exceed your estimates above). My cynical, "everything Canon/Nikon releases is a tiny iteration" side wants to say this is due to their laziness and or cheapness. But it could actually be that there's little point in a faster processor when you've already hit those mirror movement / Continuous AF limits. It could also be that, lacking a smartphone division, they can't match Samsung's design expertise in this area. But Sony probably could if they wanted to, so there may be cause for optimism.
Mar 20, 2015 at 04:18 PM
p.7 #16A7rII rumour
'dentists/doctors and lawyers'
Well, I've been saying they need to compete with Leica rather than Canon/Nikon. ;-) lol
Well, I've been saying they need to compete with Leica rather than Canon/Nikon. ;-) lol
Mar 20, 2015 at 05:29 PM
p.7 #17A7rII rumour
Lee Saxon wrote:
I think making that assumption based on current DSLRs is partially flawed. I think DSLR fps limits are limited by how fast an affordable mirror box can get out of the way and the related issue of Continuous AF performance at least as much as by processing power.
It's also relevant that DSLR processing power limitations are not due to thermal limits. Samsung was able to give the NX1 considerably more processing power than far larger DSLRs (and exceed your estimates above). My cynical, "everything Canon/Nikon releases is a tiny iteration" side wants to say this is due to their...Show more →
You know Lee, you are right I hadn't thought of the NX1. It does suggest that there is the potential of a high fps and higher megapixel camera. So far Canon and Nikon haven't done this and it doesn't seem to just be mirror box related. The 1DX can shoot at 14 fps, so the mirror box isn't slowing it that much. Still they only had a 18 mp sensor in that camera which always suggested to me they didn't have the computing horsepower for a higher mp sensor at that fps. If anything Nikon seems to have done less. Their high fps camera is just 16 mp. Sony hasn't done any better yet either. The A900 was in the same league as the Canon 1DX and the Nikon D4, but even the A600 is in that league too, so their is reason for hope. I could certainly see a 36mp camera at 12 fps, and that would be a pretty strong competitor with the 1DX and D4 especially as it would be cheaper. They would have to get significantly more computing power than even the NX1, however, if they are going to get to double digits in fps with a 50 mp camera.
Steve Spencer wrote
Because of limits on computing power there will be a tradeoff between mega pixels and frames per second. A 50 mp camera can probably only realistically be 5 fps, a 36 mp camera can probably only be 7 fps, and a 24 mp camera can only be 10 or 11 fps.It's also relevant that DSLR processing power limitations are not due to thermal limits. Samsung was able to give the NX1 considerably more processing power than far larger DSLRs (and exceed your estimates above). My cynical, "everything Canon/Nikon releases is a tiny iteration" side wants to say this is due to their...Show more →
You know Lee, you are right I hadn't thought of the NX1. It does suggest that there is the potential of a high fps and higher megapixel camera. So far Canon and Nikon haven't done this and it doesn't seem to just be mirror box related. The 1DX can shoot at 14 fps, so the mirror box isn't slowing it that much. Still they only had a 18 mp sensor in that camera which always suggested to me they didn't have the computing horsepower for a higher mp sensor at that fps. If anything Nikon seems to have done less. Their high fps camera is just 16 mp. Sony hasn't done any better yet either. The A900 was in the same league as the Canon 1DX and the Nikon D4, but even the A600 is in that league too, so their is reason for hope. I could certainly see a 36mp camera at 12 fps, and that would be a pretty strong competitor with the 1DX and D4 especially as it would be cheaper. They would have to get significantly more computing power than even the NX1, however, if they are going to get to double digits in fps with a 50 mp camera.
Mar 20, 2015 at 05:35 PM
p.7 #18A7rII rumour
sony has pro.sony.com for their "pro" video gear and www.sony.com for their consumer video gear. the still camera lines are on the consumer website. they can make a pro still camera, if they want.
i do wish they would make their software interface better--it is difficult to switch between the functionality on the fly. feels very consumer. perhaps they should have an advisory board of pro shooters help them.
leica's m240 is primarily a dentist/lawyer/doctor camera these days; however a handful of top professional photographers use it. Sony could so easily step into this space--if they fix a few things. it would be a smart move as it would associate the brand with top shooters in the world. many pro's really want a mirrorless system for certain jobs--street, travel (all the way up to National Geo contractors), etc. I do hope sony will create a product line for these people. The dentist/lawyer/doctor crowd will buy it up once they find out 'real' pro shooters are adopting it, not matter what the price.
the RX-1 seemed to be headed this way--except lousy auto focus, lack of weather seal, fixed lens, single card slot, crappy battery life and view finder issue. the A7 line is getting closer, but still has many short comings--so somewhat relegated to the toy market, even though lots of 'pro's' are pushing it hard given it has a few key advantages--like the A7s.
i do wish they would make their software interface better--it is difficult to switch between the functionality on the fly. feels very consumer. perhaps they should have an advisory board of pro shooters help them.
leica's m240 is primarily a dentist/lawyer/doctor camera these days; however a handful of top professional photographers use it. Sony could so easily step into this space--if they fix a few things. it would be a smart move as it would associate the brand with top shooters in the world. many pro's really want a mirrorless system for certain jobs--street, travel (all the way up to National Geo contractors), etc. I do hope sony will create a product line for these people. The dentist/lawyer/doctor crowd will buy it up once they find out 'real' pro shooters are adopting it, not matter what the price.
the RX-1 seemed to be headed this way--except lousy auto focus, lack of weather seal, fixed lens, single card slot, crappy battery life and view finder issue. the A7 line is getting closer, but still has many short comings--so somewhat relegated to the toy market, even though lots of 'pro's' are pushing it hard given it has a few key advantages--like the A7s.
Mar 21, 2015 at 09:50 PM
p.7 #19A7rII rumour
philip_pj wrote:
There are pros and pros, and most I've met are real gear tarts. ;-) Speaking of sports/corporate/event pros it's sad to see them and their preferred equipment put on pedestals by the general population of photographers, but that is testament to the great marketing job done by C/N over the years.
It is likely many more people shoot the various other avenues of paid photography than say sports, perhaps even commercial. Even weddings etc. work would work very well with the a7 cameras, and a slightly toughened up one would be close to ideal for them.
Sony is likely to continue...Show more →
Philip, your post made me wonder how many big L primes and 200-400's does Canon sell per year. Considering the cost involved, that market is probably not that big. Given that even Nikon is supposedly having trouble to keep up with Canon, Sony is smart not to bother too much (been there, done that, sort of). Then again, many good folks here on FM do wildlife (and extremely well, as the threads on the nature and wildlife board demonstrate on a daily basis), so I'd think there is a greater demand for long lenses and fast AF around here than in the general amateur audience which Sony is aiming at with the a7 series.
There are pros and pros, and most I've met are real gear tarts. ;-) Speaking of sports/corporate/event pros it's sad to see them and their preferred equipment put on pedestals by the general population of photographers, but that is testament to the great marketing job done by C/N over the years.
It is likely many more people shoot the various other avenues of paid photography than say sports, perhaps even commercial. Even weddings etc. work would work very well with the a7 cameras, and a slightly toughened up one would be close to ideal for them.
Sony is likely to continue...Show more →
Philip, your post made me wonder how many big L primes and 200-400's does Canon sell per year. Considering the cost involved, that market is probably not that big. Given that even Nikon is supposedly having trouble to keep up with Canon, Sony is smart not to bother too much (been there, done that, sort of). Then again, many good folks here on FM do wildlife (and extremely well, as the threads on the nature and wildlife board demonstrate on a daily basis), so I'd think there is a greater demand for long lenses and fast AF around here than in the general amateur audience which Sony is aiming at with the a7 series.
Mar 22, 2015 at 05:32 AM
p.7 #20A7rII rumour
Chris_88 wrote:
It is likely many more people shoot the various other avenues of paid photography than say sports, perhaps even commercial. Even weddings etc. work would work very well with the a7 cameras, and a slightly toughened up one would be close to ideal for them.
Sony is likely to continue to forego the clamour of 'requests' about the pro arena - they want to eat the larger segments: new entrants, advanced amateurs and serious enthusiasts, most of those left in the phone era, in other words.
Over 50% of a7 buyers are first time Sony users and their market share of MILC continues to grow as the DSLR world declines. Why change horses in midstream? All they need do is convince more of those two groups - some of whom do some paid work - plus many specialist photographers they offer an easier handling, more connected experience than the h/duty auto everything the 'pros' (as generally conceived) need.
Zeiss feel mirrorless will soon become mainstream, DSLR relegated to the - yes - pro market. Not too many landscape/travel/street/family/city/nature/fine art shooters will be hauling Otuses around, whether they make money at it or not.Philip, your post made me wonder how many big L primes and 200-400's does Canon sell per year. Considering the cost involved, that market is probably not that big. Given that even Nikon is supposedly having trouble to keep up with Canon, Sony is smart not to bother too much (been there, done that, sort of). Then again, many good folks here on FM do wildlife (and extremely well, as the threads on the nature and wildlife board demonstrate on a daily basis), so I'd think there is a greater demand for long lenses and fast AF around here than...Show more →
Remember there are likely to be three new cameras before too long: the A7rII, the A99 II, and the A9. I think the two that are likely to be addressed in this rumour are the A7rII and the A99 II. The A99 II will be the Sony camera that tries to compete for Sports and Wildlife. It will be interesting what it does as well. Expect it to have very good AF, at least 36mp and 12 fps if 36mp and at least 8 fps if it has 50mp. Note that the rumour that started this thread specifically does not say whether the second camera coming out is an A9 or A99 II. I very much expect an A99 II and one of the two cameras to have a 50mp sensor.
philip_pj wrote
There are pros and pros, and most I've met are real gear tarts. ;-) Speaking of sports/corporate/event pros it's sad to see them and their preferred equipment put on pedestals by the general population of photographers, but that is testament to the great marketing job done by C/N over the years.It is likely many more people shoot the various other avenues of paid photography than say sports, perhaps even commercial. Even weddings etc. work would work very well with the a7 cameras, and a slightly toughened up one would be close to ideal for them.
Sony is likely to continue to forego the clamour of 'requests' about the pro arena - they want to eat the larger segments: new entrants, advanced amateurs and serious enthusiasts, most of those left in the phone era, in other words.
Over 50% of a7 buyers are first time Sony users and their market share of MILC continues to grow as the DSLR world declines. Why change horses in midstream? All they need do is convince more of those two groups - some of whom do some paid work - plus many specialist photographers they offer an easier handling, more connected experience than the h/duty auto everything the 'pros' (as generally conceived) need.
Zeiss feel mirrorless will soon become mainstream, DSLR relegated to the - yes - pro market. Not too many landscape/travel/street/family/city/nature/fine art shooters will be hauling Otuses around, whether they make money at it or not.
Remember there are likely to be three new cameras before too long: the A7rII, the A99 II, and the A9. I think the two that are likely to be addressed in this rumour are the A7rII and the A99 II. The A99 II will be the Sony camera that tries to compete for Sports and Wildlife. It will be interesting what it does as well. Expect it to have very good AF, at least 36mp and 12 fps if 36mp and at least 8 fps if it has 50mp. Note that the rumour that started this thread specifically does not say whether the second camera coming out is an A9 or A99 II. I very much expect an A99 II and one of the two cameras to have a 50mp sensor.
Mar 22, 2015 at 05:57 AM