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Archive 2015A7rII rumour
p.6 #1A7rII rumour
mogul wrote:
Put me in the "want" category of a FF system that just sucks... crap corners, pancake lenses that smear, contrast AF or none at all (even better), plastic everything, NO IBIS, and for god sakes, the LOSSIEST algorithm Sony can scrape off the engineering floor. Why should I have to pay Leica 8K for the privilege of shooting shitty photos and garbage lenses (please no hate mail, this is tongue in cheek k)? Doesn't Sony get it?
Please god, anything for something small, rudimentary, FF, and cheaper than these new A7 bodies that get bigger, succumb to feature creep, and get higher in price with every iteration.Mirrorless does not equate to small. There are many other advantages of a mirrorless system that have nothing to do with the size of the body. You can have a small mirrorless FX body that necessarily scrimps on features, ergonomics, etc. and you can have a large mirrorless FX body that is fully featured. Sony likely will be making both (A7rII and A9 or whatever it will be called).
I wish Nikon made an A7rII equivalent - i.e., 36MP mirrorless in an A7R-sized body, but the Nikon way. There are times when I want to carry and use small compact primes and times where I want full-on-pro performance and I don't expect them to be the same body.Is the "Nikon way" mean you get to send in the camera for quality control issues or maybe wait for the "10" version of the camera. 
Well, at least they get all the feature in and eventually they all work well (D810, D610, etc.)
jhinkey wrote
taran wrote
Sadly, the people clamoring for lossless, ultimate image quality, 50MP etc etc are already getting their way, I feel. Has anyone seen the size of the new FE lenses? What is the point of having a mirrorless system the same size as Nikon/Canon OVF systems? Sharp to the corners, OSS, huge IBIS bodies that drain more battery with every iteration... garbage I don't need or want from a FF mirrorless system.Put me in the "want" category of a FF system that just sucks... crap corners, pancake lenses that smear, contrast AF or none at all (even better), plastic everything, NO IBIS, and for god sakes, the LOSSIEST algorithm Sony can scrape off the engineering floor. Why should I have to pay Leica 8K for the privilege of shooting shitty photos and garbage lenses (please no hate mail, this is tongue in cheek k)? Doesn't Sony get it?
Please god, anything for something small, rudimentary, FF, and cheaper than these new A7 bodies that get bigger, succumb to feature creep, and get higher in price with every iteration.
I wish Nikon made an A7rII equivalent - i.e., 36MP mirrorless in an A7R-sized body, but the Nikon way. There are times when I want to carry and use small compact primes and times where I want full-on-pro performance and I don't expect them to be the same body.
Well, at least they get all the feature in and eventually they all work well (D810, D610, etc.)
Mar 19, 2015 at 01:35 PM
p.6 #2A7rII rumour
I'd like Nikon to get their arse in gear and make a FF mirrorless along the lines of the Sony, so I can use my Nikon lenses and go out with a lighter kit when I want to.
Mar 19, 2015 at 03:49 PM
p.6 #3A7rII rumour
taran wrote:
Sadly, the people clamoring for lossless, ultimate image quality, 50MP etc etc are already getting their way, I feel. Has anyone seen the size of the new FE lenses? What is the point of having a mirrorless system the same size as Nikon/Canon OVF systems? Sharp to the corners, OSS, huge IBIS bodies that drain more battery with every iteration... garbage I don't need or want from a FF mirrorless system.
Put me in the "want" category of a FF system that just sucks... crap corners, pancake lenses that smear, contrast AF or none at all (even better), plastic everything, NO...Show more →
Understand your humor here, but some points are well taken. I also dislike that the new FE lenses are big as DSLR lenses - never understood why because you actually can make good small rangefinder size AF lenses as the Contax G system has proven in the past. Also true that more electronic features drain more battery power.
Unfortunately the group of users who use the A7 series only with MF lenses and don't need all those electronic gimmicks is small and not profitable enough for Sony to focus on unfortunately. That's why to me the original A7R keeps very valuable
Sadly, the people clamoring for lossless, ultimate image quality, 50MP etc etc are already getting their way, I feel. Has anyone seen the size of the new FE lenses? What is the point of having a mirrorless system the same size as Nikon/Canon OVF systems? Sharp to the corners, OSS, huge IBIS bodies that drain more battery with every iteration... garbage I don't need or want from a FF mirrorless system.
Put me in the "want" category of a FF system that just sucks... crap corners, pancake lenses that smear, contrast AF or none at all (even better), plastic everything, NO...Show more →
Understand your humor here, but some points are well taken. I also dislike that the new FE lenses are big as DSLR lenses - never understood why because you actually can make good small rangefinder size AF lenses as the Contax G system has proven in the past. Also true that more electronic features drain more battery power.
Unfortunately the group of users who use the A7 series only with MF lenses and don't need all those electronic gimmicks is small and not profitable enough for Sony to focus on unfortunately. That's why to me the original A7R keeps very valuable
Mar 19, 2015 at 04:10 PM
p.6 #4A7rII rumour
I see you registered your account today, welcome to Fred Miranda
grammarnazijoy wrote:
"The simplest lossy compression scheme I can think of is to simply throw away the least significant bits. That will a) reduce the storage requirement (fewer bits per pixel) and b) result in some loss of data. It is therefor a form of lossy compression. "
You skipped the compression side of the algorithm.
If you take a 14-bit value and store only the 8 most significant bits, then that achieves compression. The resulting file would be 43% smaller, hence it has been compressed. Decompression would involve padding the 8-bit value with zeros to get back to 14 bits. It's not a good compression algorithm, but it is a compression algorithm.
grammarnazijoy wrote:
Truncation + compression > compression. Keep in mind we're talking about image compression.
An image is just data. Any data compression technique can be used on images.
grammarnazijoy wrote:
It seems you've misunderstood the un-authoritative article. It does not contain the sony's source code; furthermore, it does not state entropy is not used. I suggest you look at patents.
http://pastebin.com/9TvedTK6
http://pastebin.com/VbLQnR6J
These two should help you understand a bit about compression.
I you had simply pointed to the relevant part it would be more useful than posting a heap of source code but I see there is an implementation of Huffman coding in there which I'm guessing is what you're referring to.
The RAWdigger article made no mention of further compression after delta encoding and the filesizes seemed to add up so I assumed that was the end f things. Having rechecked it does seem the files are ever so slightly smaller than could be achieved with exactly 8 bits per pixel so it seems a very small amount of furhter (lossless) compression is used.
grammarnazijoy wrote:
"The simplest lossy compression scheme I can think of is to simply throw away the least significant bits. That will a) reduce the storage requirement (fewer bits per pixel) and b) result in some loss of data. It is therefor a form of lossy compression. "
You skipped the compression side of the algorithm.
If you take a 14-bit value and store only the 8 most significant bits, then that achieves compression. The resulting file would be 43% smaller, hence it has been compressed. Decompression would involve padding the 8-bit value with zeros to get back to 14 bits. It's not a good compression algorithm, but it is a compression algorithm.
grammarnazijoy wrote:
Truncation + compression > compression. Keep in mind we're talking about image compression.
An image is just data. Any data compression technique can be used on images.
grammarnazijoy wrote:
It seems you've misunderstood the un-authoritative article. It does not contain the sony's source code; furthermore, it does not state entropy is not used. I suggest you look at patents.
http://pastebin.com/9TvedTK6
http://pastebin.com/VbLQnR6J
These two should help you understand a bit about compression.
I you had simply pointed to the relevant part it would be more useful than posting a heap of source code but I see there is an implementation of Huffman coding in there which I'm guessing is what you're referring to.
The RAWdigger article made no mention of further compression after delta encoding and the filesizes seemed to add up so I assumed that was the end f things. Having rechecked it does seem the files are ever so slightly smaller than could be achieved with exactly 8 bits per pixel so it seems a very small amount of furhter (lossless) compression is used.
Mar 19, 2015 at 04:53 PM
p.6 #5A7rII rumour
grammarnazijoy wrote:
I have no interest to post here any longer.
Be sure to come back and visit us when (if) you graduate...
I have no interest to post here any longer.
Be sure to come back and visit us when (if) you graduate...
Mar 19, 2015 at 05:59 PM
p.6 #6A7rII rumour
Although many of us have been admirably restrained, some of the comment in this thread and others is starting to read like DPreview. I hope we can tone it down. I'm sure many of us come to FM for civilised and respectful discussion, where mistakes if any get pointed out gently and we all learn, and there's not too much fanboyism. I fear it may involve some admin intervention.
Mar 19, 2015 at 07:30 PM
p.6 #7A7rII rumour
Matt Grum wrote:
I see you registered your account today, welcome to Fred Miranda
grammarnazijoy wrote
"The simplest lossy compression scheme I can think of is to simply throw away the least significant bits. That will a) reduce the storage requirement (fewer bits per pixel) and b) result in some loss of data. It is therefor a form of lossy compression. "You skipped the compression side of the algorithm.
grammarnazijoy wrote
Truncation + compression > compression. Keep in mind we're talking about image compression.grammarnazijoy wrote
It seems you've misunderstood the un-authoritative article. It does not contain the sony's source code; furthermore, it does not state entropy is not used. I suggest you look at patents.http://pastebin.com/9TvedTK6
http://pastebin.com/VbLQnR6J
These two should help you understand a bit about compression.
Matt, it's the same idiot with a new acct, probably bc even tho his first acct only had a few posts, everyone had already "ignored user" on it.
Mar 19, 2015 at 08:26 PM
p.6 #8A7rII rumour
jhinkey wrote:
Seems like an A7RIi with a 50MP sensor is not enough to compete with the 50MP "Pro" models from Canon and Nikon. Pros generally need way better frame rates, ergonomics, weather sealing, AF speed, etc. etc.. Thus I would not think Sony would make a 50MP A7RII for this purpose. So to me keeping it at 36MP and using the D810 sensor (or maybe an slightly upgraded version) makes far more sense.
A 50MP A8 pro mirrorless that has a substantially different inner and outer design from the A7 series makes more sense as well as a 50MP A-mount - these...Show more →
You do realize that the Canon 5Ds/r only shoots at 5 fps with dual digit chips. That is a lot of computing horsepower and it still doesn't shoot that fast. I think Sony will want a pro camera that shoots quite a bit faster than that. The A9, IMO, needs not to compete so much with the Canon 5Ds/r, but the 1D series camera (that is the real Pro model from Canon), and something similar could be said about Nikon. They will have a 50 mp camera, I believe, but that too will not be a fast shooting camera. Probably 5 fps or so, and it will be a great camera, but it won't be their top pro camera. That will be the D series (likely a D5) and it will be that camera that the A9 will have to compete, IMO.
So let's look at the Canon 1DX. It has 18.1 mp and shoots at 14 fps and has high level fast AF. The Nikon D4 and D4S has 16.1 mp and shoots at 11 fps and has high level fast AF. This suggests to me that the A9 has to have lower MP and a faster fps to compete with the top pro cameras from Canon and Nikon. My own view is that a good compromise would be a camera with 36 mp that shoots a 7 fps (if they had the same computing horsepower of the Canon 1DX or 5Ds/r, then they could get 7 fps and keep the 36mp sensor). Alternatively they could make a 24 mp camera that shoots at 10 or maybe 11 fps, but as they shoot faster the AF demands go up too and improving the AF may be the very hardest part of the A9. I think this camera is going to be a huge challenge.
So what is the best way for Sony to try to compete with Canon and Nikon? If they make an A9 with 50mp, this can compete with the Canon 5Ds/r, but they have no competition for the higher level pro cameras like the 1DX and the D4 and D4s. If they make the A9 with fewer megapixels and higher shooting speed, then they can begin to try to compute with the higher pro level cameras and they could leave the A7r II to compete with the high megapixel cameras from Canon and Nikon. Sure the Canon would have a higher frames per second and likely better AF, but the A7r II would have a better sensor especially if they put a 50mp sensor in it. For those who care about such high resolution, then having a better sensor would seem to be a big draw. So I think a 50mp A7r II and a 36 or even 24mp A9 would allow Sony to compete with both the high megapixel offerings from Canon and Nikon (here the A7r II would compete) and with the higher level pro bodies from Canon and Nkon (here the A9 would compete). My guess is that Sony will make the A7r II with the higher pixel density and the A9 with the higher frame per second, but hey I could easily be wrong.
Seems like an A7RIi with a 50MP sensor is not enough to compete with the 50MP "Pro" models from Canon and Nikon. Pros generally need way better frame rates, ergonomics, weather sealing, AF speed, etc. etc.. Thus I would not think Sony would make a 50MP A7RII for this purpose. So to me keeping it at 36MP and using the D810 sensor (or maybe an slightly upgraded version) makes far more sense.
A 50MP A8 pro mirrorless that has a substantially different inner and outer design from the A7 series makes more sense as well as a 50MP A-mount - these...Show more →
You do realize that the Canon 5Ds/r only shoots at 5 fps with dual digit chips. That is a lot of computing horsepower and it still doesn't shoot that fast. I think Sony will want a pro camera that shoots quite a bit faster than that. The A9, IMO, needs not to compete so much with the Canon 5Ds/r, but the 1D series camera (that is the real Pro model from Canon), and something similar could be said about Nikon. They will have a 50 mp camera, I believe, but that too will not be a fast shooting camera. Probably 5 fps or so, and it will be a great camera, but it won't be their top pro camera. That will be the D series (likely a D5) and it will be that camera that the A9 will have to compete, IMO.
So let's look at the Canon 1DX. It has 18.1 mp and shoots at 14 fps and has high level fast AF. The Nikon D4 and D4S has 16.1 mp and shoots at 11 fps and has high level fast AF. This suggests to me that the A9 has to have lower MP and a faster fps to compete with the top pro cameras from Canon and Nikon. My own view is that a good compromise would be a camera with 36 mp that shoots a 7 fps (if they had the same computing horsepower of the Canon 1DX or 5Ds/r, then they could get 7 fps and keep the 36mp sensor). Alternatively they could make a 24 mp camera that shoots at 10 or maybe 11 fps, but as they shoot faster the AF demands go up too and improving the AF may be the very hardest part of the A9. I think this camera is going to be a huge challenge.
So what is the best way for Sony to try to compete with Canon and Nikon? If they make an A9 with 50mp, this can compete with the Canon 5Ds/r, but they have no competition for the higher level pro cameras like the 1DX and the D4 and D4s. If they make the A9 with fewer megapixels and higher shooting speed, then they can begin to try to compute with the higher pro level cameras and they could leave the A7r II to compete with the high megapixel cameras from Canon and Nikon. Sure the Canon would have a higher frames per second and likely better AF, but the A7r II would have a better sensor especially if they put a 50mp sensor in it. For those who care about such high resolution, then having a better sensor would seem to be a big draw. So I think a 50mp A7r II and a 36 or even 24mp A9 would allow Sony to compete with both the high megapixel offerings from Canon and Nikon (here the A7r II would compete) and with the higher level pro bodies from Canon and Nkon (here the A9 would compete). My guess is that Sony will make the A7r II with the higher pixel density and the A9 with the higher frame per second, but hey I could easily be wrong.
Mar 19, 2015 at 09:13 PM
p.6 #9A7rII rumour
Just thinking here...even if the a9 could match the speed of a 1DX or D4S, would that even make it a compelling alternative to those cameras? Don't those flagship DSLRs shoot fast to cover action (sport and wildlife)? Even if the a9 was ultra-fast and had a rock-solid AF system, would it matter? No action photographer would ever buy one anyway because there are no FE super telephotos to support that sort of photography.
So, my feeling is that Sony could possibly aim for different sorts of professionals they can more reasonably market to, like wedding, event, portrait pros. 5fps is suitably fast for that. I can see Sony taking a different path than Canon and Nikon in defining what a "professional" ILCE camera is. Competing head-to-head, flagship against flagship might not possibly be the best marketing strategy. But! I don't really know; just thinking it all out.
One more thought: I wonder what the form-factor of the a9 will be? Is everyone imagining the same diminutive a7 body with more capabilities, or will it be substantially larger? Would love to hear what people are expecting.
So, my feeling is that Sony could possibly aim for different sorts of professionals they can more reasonably market to, like wedding, event, portrait pros. 5fps is suitably fast for that. I can see Sony taking a different path than Canon and Nikon in defining what a "professional" ILCE camera is. Competing head-to-head, flagship against flagship might not possibly be the best marketing strategy. But! I don't really know; just thinking it all out.
One more thought: I wonder what the form-factor of the a9 will be? Is everyone imagining the same diminutive a7 body with more capabilities, or will it be substantially larger? Would love to hear what people are expecting.
Mar 19, 2015 at 09:40 PM
p.6 #10A7rII rumour
Darbo's point is well made.
It's hard to believe that Sony would think now was the right time to launch an action oriented E mount camera. There just isn't the E lens support.
Also, 50MP is not a goer for action either, unless some miracle has happened (the Canon 50MP models are relatively slow, and I can't see Sony being much or indeed any faster - Canon do that pretty well!)
We are told the body which is not the A7rIII is 50MP. So I think that rules out an action cam (if they were going to do one a larger body with an E mount and a really serious adapter for the A mount superteles that have top end AF would be the go. But even then they would have to develop a top end FF Phase detect module which they don't have, and developing them is not trivial for the likely small sales. That's Canikon country.
So what will this 50MP "pro" body be?
I'm guessing then NOT a large behemoth, but something
(a) a little bigger than A7 series but not much: just enough to allow even better build, gaskets, and maybe a larger battery and even better EVF optics.
(b) a 50MP sensor with on chip phase detect and EFCS and IBIS; the on chip phase detect would for credibility for this kind of camera need to be almost as good as A6000; which is still not a professional sports or wildlife cam, but better than any A7 series
(c) burst rate in line with A7r
Who knows about the rest of people's wish lists (Lossless compresson, maybe but likely not: global shutter almost certainly not)
This would be be enough cooler than the A7rII (AF, 50MP, jewellery factor, ruggedness) that it might just be something people would pay the extra 1-1.5K for if it's not too much bigger than the A7 series. I think that's crucial. Being smaller is the compelling advantage of Sony FF. There are reasons you might want a larger camera, but I think that's only a sizeable market when you have a much larger range of large lenses than they have now.
But who knows! Why is speculation like this such fun?
It's hard to believe that Sony would think now was the right time to launch an action oriented E mount camera. There just isn't the E lens support.
Also, 50MP is not a goer for action either, unless some miracle has happened (the Canon 50MP models are relatively slow, and I can't see Sony being much or indeed any faster - Canon do that pretty well!)
We are told the body which is not the A7rIII is 50MP. So I think that rules out an action cam (if they were going to do one a larger body with an E mount and a really serious adapter for the A mount superteles that have top end AF would be the go. But even then they would have to develop a top end FF Phase detect module which they don't have, and developing them is not trivial for the likely small sales. That's Canikon country.
So what will this 50MP "pro" body be?
I'm guessing then NOT a large behemoth, but something
(a) a little bigger than A7 series but not much: just enough to allow even better build, gaskets, and maybe a larger battery and even better EVF optics.
(b) a 50MP sensor with on chip phase detect and EFCS and IBIS; the on chip phase detect would for credibility for this kind of camera need to be almost as good as A6000; which is still not a professional sports or wildlife cam, but better than any A7 series
(c) burst rate in line with A7r
Who knows about the rest of people's wish lists (Lossless compresson, maybe but likely not: global shutter almost certainly not)
This would be be enough cooler than the A7rII (AF, 50MP, jewellery factor, ruggedness) that it might just be something people would pay the extra 1-1.5K for if it's not too much bigger than the A7 series. I think that's crucial. Being smaller is the compelling advantage of Sony FF. There are reasons you might want a larger camera, but I think that's only a sizeable market when you have a much larger range of large lenses than they have now.
But who knows! Why is speculation like this such fun?
Mar 19, 2015 at 10:03 PM
p.6 #11A7rII rumour
darbo wrote:
Just thinking here...even if the a9 could match the speed of a 1DX or D4S, would that even make it a compelling alternative to those cameras? Don't those flagship DSLRs shoot fast to cover action (sport and wildlife)? Even if the a9 was ultra-fast and had a rock-solid AF system, would it matter? No action photographer would ever buy one anyway because there are no FE super telephotos to support that sort of photography.
So, my feeling is that Sony could possibly aim for different sorts of professionals they can more reasonably market to, like wedding, event, portrait pros. 5fps is...Show more →
I'm not a pro and I've always felt that if I was a pro I'd probably hate seeing other people (particularly non-pros, b/c it's usually only non-pros who sit around and even talk like this) describe what they think a 'pro photographer' needs or does let alone what a 'pro camera' needs or should have.
i think that, other than to show the world what it is capable of, it's premature to think the intention of Sony for the FE mount is going to attract droves of 'pros' until there is a complete 'pro' line of lenses available.
frankly, the only reason I'm even entertaining the idea of adopting the FE mount right now is that i am NOT a 'pro' and can deal with making many compromises in terms of lens selection.
let's not forget 2 things, while having some amazing features - (a) the cameras still lack numerous features that are common or much better on DSLR and (b) while Sony is releasing lenses with some speed, even at their current pace it could be a decade before they have the full depth and breath of Canikon.
the 'pros' i do know (not the ones you read about and are 'sponsored' by brands) don't upgrade every cycle and *perish the thought* use zooms, sometimes even *slow* ones!
maybe we should call the a9, the 'lawyers and doctors' (pick your favorite profession) series.
and lest anyone take this the wrong way - i sold all my Nikon gear to adopt the a7r and am anxiously awaiting either the a7rII or a9 and that will likely be my camera for the next 4 to 8 years.
Just thinking here...even if the a9 could match the speed of a 1DX or D4S, would that even make it a compelling alternative to those cameras? Don't those flagship DSLRs shoot fast to cover action (sport and wildlife)? Even if the a9 was ultra-fast and had a rock-solid AF system, would it matter? No action photographer would ever buy one anyway because there are no FE super telephotos to support that sort of photography.
So, my feeling is that Sony could possibly aim for different sorts of professionals they can more reasonably market to, like wedding, event, portrait pros. 5fps is...Show more →
I'm not a pro and I've always felt that if I was a pro I'd probably hate seeing other people (particularly non-pros, b/c it's usually only non-pros who sit around and even talk like this) describe what they think a 'pro photographer' needs or does let alone what a 'pro camera' needs or should have.
i think that, other than to show the world what it is capable of, it's premature to think the intention of Sony for the FE mount is going to attract droves of 'pros' until there is a complete 'pro' line of lenses available.
frankly, the only reason I'm even entertaining the idea of adopting the FE mount right now is that i am NOT a 'pro' and can deal with making many compromises in terms of lens selection.
let's not forget 2 things, while having some amazing features - (a) the cameras still lack numerous features that are common or much better on DSLR and (b) while Sony is releasing lenses with some speed, even at their current pace it could be a decade before they have the full depth and breath of Canikon.
the 'pros' i do know (not the ones you read about and are 'sponsored' by brands) don't upgrade every cycle and *perish the thought* use zooms, sometimes even *slow* ones!
maybe we should call the a9, the 'lawyers and doctors' (pick your favorite profession) series.
and lest anyone take this the wrong way - i sold all my Nikon gear to adopt the a7r and am anxiously awaiting either the a7rII or a9 and that will likely be my camera for the next 4 to 8 years.
Mar 19, 2015 at 10:05 PM
p.6 #12A7rII rumour
darbo wrote:
Just thinking here...even if the a9 could match the speed of a 1DX or D4S, would that even make it a compelling alternative to those cameras? Don't those flagship DSLRs shoot fast to cover action (sport and wildlife)? Even if the a9 was ultra-fast and had a rock-solid AF system, would it matter? No action photographer would ever buy one anyway because there are no FE super telephotos to support that sort of photography.
So, my feeling is that Sony could possibly aim for different sorts of professionals they can more reasonably market to, like wedding, event, portrait pros. 5fps is...Show more →
+1. I really don't think it makes sense for Sony to "waste" time and energy to compete hands-on with Canikon for sports and wildlife photography. As I wrote in another thread, they might be able to "convince" a handful of pros to switch, but the majority of pros and advanced amateurs are not going to forfeit their investment in big, expensive and usually excellent Canikon glass. Sony is still busy filling out the holes in its 16 through 200mm line-up. I doubt that their financial situation, development capabilities and potential user base would make the development of multiple 300 through 600mm primes or big zooms like the 200-400 feasible. So what's the point.
One more thought: I wonder what the form-factor of the a9 will be? Is everyone imagining the same diminutive a7 body with more capabilities, or will it be substantially larger? Would love to hear what people are expecting.
I would think a7ii or larger, depending on the frame rate. If it's closer to 5fps than 10fps, it might as well be close to the a7ii. If it's faster, then it should be bigger.
Personally, my preference would be an a7ii-sized camera with EFCS. IBIS is a nice add-on. I have not interest in huge DSLR-sized camera. The best feature of the a7 series so far has been the great performance in a very reasonable form factor. I can slap a big lens on the camera, if I have to, but I also have the option to go light and small with the 35 2.8, 55 1.8 and an alt 90 2.8, which has made me enjoy photography far more.
Just thinking here...even if the a9 could match the speed of a 1DX or D4S, would that even make it a compelling alternative to those cameras? Don't those flagship DSLRs shoot fast to cover action (sport and wildlife)? Even if the a9 was ultra-fast and had a rock-solid AF system, would it matter? No action photographer would ever buy one anyway because there are no FE super telephotos to support that sort of photography.
So, my feeling is that Sony could possibly aim for different sorts of professionals they can more reasonably market to, like wedding, event, portrait pros. 5fps is...Show more →
+1. I really don't think it makes sense for Sony to "waste" time and energy to compete hands-on with Canikon for sports and wildlife photography. As I wrote in another thread, they might be able to "convince" a handful of pros to switch, but the majority of pros and advanced amateurs are not going to forfeit their investment in big, expensive and usually excellent Canikon glass. Sony is still busy filling out the holes in its 16 through 200mm line-up. I doubt that their financial situation, development capabilities and potential user base would make the development of multiple 300 through 600mm primes or big zooms like the 200-400 feasible. So what's the point.
One more thought: I wonder what the form-factor of the a9 will be? Is everyone imagining the same diminutive a7 body with more capabilities, or will it be substantially larger? Would love to hear what people are expecting.
I would think a7ii or larger, depending on the frame rate. If it's closer to 5fps than 10fps, it might as well be close to the a7ii. If it's faster, then it should be bigger.
Personally, my preference would be an a7ii-sized camera with EFCS. IBIS is a nice add-on. I have not interest in huge DSLR-sized camera. The best feature of the a7 series so far has been the great performance in a very reasonable form factor. I can slap a big lens on the camera, if I have to, but I also have the option to go light and small with the 35 2.8, 55 1.8 and an alt 90 2.8, which has made me enjoy photography far more.
Mar 19, 2015 at 10:15 PM
p.6 #13A7rII rumour
ecarlino wrote:
I'm not a pro and I've always felt that if I was a pro I'd probably hate seeing other people (particularly non-pros, b/c it's usually only non-pros who sit around and even talk like this) describe what they think a 'pro photographer' needs or does let alone what a 'pro camera' needs or should have.
Pros do discuss their gear choices in forums like this. They are quite vocal on POTN where I am most active. And they also often discuss gear in blogs or youtube videos, etc. And if you start paying attention to what they say regarding their gear choices you start to get a good sense of what sort of gear is needed for various professional genres. I can, for example, comfortably say that wedding professionals can do their job extremely well with a 5fps camera, because I know of numerous wedding pros that prefer 5D IIIs over the 1DX and produce exceptional work with them (there are also plenty of wedding pros that prefer 1DXs too). The 5D III is a 5fps camera.
I'm not a pro and I've always felt that if I was a pro I'd probably hate seeing other people (particularly non-pros, b/c it's usually only non-pros who sit around and even talk like this) describe what they think a 'pro photographer' needs or does let alone what a 'pro camera' needs or should have.
Pros do discuss their gear choices in forums like this. They are quite vocal on POTN where I am most active. And they also often discuss gear in blogs or youtube videos, etc. And if you start paying attention to what they say regarding their gear choices you start to get a good sense of what sort of gear is needed for various professional genres. I can, for example, comfortably say that wedding professionals can do their job extremely well with a 5fps camera, because I know of numerous wedding pros that prefer 5D IIIs over the 1DX and produce exceptional work with them (there are also plenty of wedding pros that prefer 1DXs too). The 5D III is a 5fps camera.
Mar 19, 2015 at 10:42 PM
p.6 #14A7rII rumour
It's true that pros discuss gear.
But (to generalise in a way that of course has exceptions) people who make money out of photography tend to use a top end UWA zoom, an f2.8 standard zoom, an f2.8 short telezoom, a large body that goes with this, and a bunch of super teles if they are sports togs or wildlife togs (though not many people manage to make a living out of the latter sadly). Then there are niches like architecture people that might have a TSE or two, and maybe a portrait lens or a macro lens for wedding, portrait and product work.
Who is asking for the fast primes? Me for one. But generally it's people who take pictures for fun. People who don't have to get any particular shot (note that that "have to" predisposes you to a large body with top of the line autofocus), but care a lot about the qualities of the pictures we do take. Also, those of us who take pics for fun try our hand at lots of things, so we end up with more lenses.
People making money from photography are likely to drive to their shoot (if it's not in a studio) and have all the gear in a large case. So once again size is not a huge impediment. People who do it for fun are more likely hiking, or travelling for another purpose with limited luggage, or just don't want something huge around their necks.
I'm not saying there are no professionals using Sony stuff other than the ones sponsored, but I'm sure there aren't many. I've never seen one in the wild.
Maybe there will be one day, but that day will be when mirrorless is mainstream and there are no advantages to SLRs. Sony would be mad to make the HUGE investment to try to get that market now in the last decade of mainstream SLRs, rather than positioning themselves for the future when the competition comes in a big way from Canikon.
Don't think though that I don't like the Sony stuff. I've switched to it. I've had more fun since I ditched Canon FF (keeping some lenses) and M43 than I've had with photography since my OM and wet darkroom days. I have loved the A7r and I'm waiting with bated breath for the A9. But the system really is optimal for people like me -- or like us, speaking presumptuously for many people on this forum. People who enjoy legacy lenses, people who agonise about Bokeh, people who are about levels of IQ that aren't commercially significant. People who like to feel ahead of the wave (which is something that is commercially unwise)
Sony has indeed talked about getting a pro camera -- and they have started having pro service programs. But what "pro" means here is just very good (as in software names: Doitall Pro 2.0!). Incrementally better and non-incrementally more expensive. Will some pros buy it and sign up for the pro service programs? Sure. Will they in the long term get a big chuck of the professional market? Who knows. But will pros be the life blood, or even a decent chuck of the market for the A9? I doubt it. It'll people like me - us.
But (to generalise in a way that of course has exceptions) people who make money out of photography tend to use a top end UWA zoom, an f2.8 standard zoom, an f2.8 short telezoom, a large body that goes with this, and a bunch of super teles if they are sports togs or wildlife togs (though not many people manage to make a living out of the latter sadly). Then there are niches like architecture people that might have a TSE or two, and maybe a portrait lens or a macro lens for wedding, portrait and product work.
Who is asking for the fast primes? Me for one. But generally it's people who take pictures for fun. People who don't have to get any particular shot (note that that "have to" predisposes you to a large body with top of the line autofocus), but care a lot about the qualities of the pictures we do take. Also, those of us who take pics for fun try our hand at lots of things, so we end up with more lenses.
People making money from photography are likely to drive to their shoot (if it's not in a studio) and have all the gear in a large case. So once again size is not a huge impediment. People who do it for fun are more likely hiking, or travelling for another purpose with limited luggage, or just don't want something huge around their necks.
I'm not saying there are no professionals using Sony stuff other than the ones sponsored, but I'm sure there aren't many. I've never seen one in the wild.
Maybe there will be one day, but that day will be when mirrorless is mainstream and there are no advantages to SLRs. Sony would be mad to make the HUGE investment to try to get that market now in the last decade of mainstream SLRs, rather than positioning themselves for the future when the competition comes in a big way from Canikon.
Don't think though that I don't like the Sony stuff. I've switched to it. I've had more fun since I ditched Canon FF (keeping some lenses) and M43 than I've had with photography since my OM and wet darkroom days. I have loved the A7r and I'm waiting with bated breath for the A9. But the system really is optimal for people like me -- or like us, speaking presumptuously for many people on this forum. People who enjoy legacy lenses, people who agonise about Bokeh, people who are about levels of IQ that aren't commercially significant. People who like to feel ahead of the wave (which is something that is commercially unwise)
Sony has indeed talked about getting a pro camera -- and they have started having pro service programs. But what "pro" means here is just very good (as in software names: Doitall Pro 2.0!). Incrementally better and non-incrementally more expensive. Will some pros buy it and sign up for the pro service programs? Sure. Will they in the long term get a big chuck of the professional market? Who knows. But will pros be the life blood, or even a decent chuck of the market for the A9? I doubt it. It'll people like me - us.
Mar 19, 2015 at 11:27 PM
p.6 #15A7rII rumour
There are pros and pros, and most I've met are real gear tarts. ;-) Speaking of sports/corporate/event pros it's sad to see them and their preferred equipment put on pedestals by the general population of photographers, but that is testament to the great marketing job done by C/N over the years.
It is likely many more people shoot the various other avenues of paid photography than say sports, perhaps even commercial. Even weddings etc. work would work very well with the a7 cameras, and a slightly toughened up one would be close to ideal for them.
Sony is likely to continue to forego the clamour of 'requests' about the pro arena - they want to eat the larger segments: new entrants, advanced amateurs and serious enthusiasts, most of those left in the phone era, in other words.
Over 50% of a7 buyers are first time Sony users and their market share of MILC continues to grow as the DSLR world declines. Why change horses in midstream? All they need do is convince more of those two groups - some of whom do some paid work - plus many specialist photographers they offer an easier handling, more connected experience than the h/duty auto everything the 'pros' (as generally conceived) need.
Zeiss feel mirrorless will soon become mainstream, DSLR relegated to the - yes - pro market. Not too many landscape/travel/street/family/city/nature/fine art shooters will be hauling Otuses around, whether they make money at it or not.
It is likely many more people shoot the various other avenues of paid photography than say sports, perhaps even commercial. Even weddings etc. work would work very well with the a7 cameras, and a slightly toughened up one would be close to ideal for them.
Sony is likely to continue to forego the clamour of 'requests' about the pro arena - they want to eat the larger segments: new entrants, advanced amateurs and serious enthusiasts, most of those left in the phone era, in other words.
Over 50% of a7 buyers are first time Sony users and their market share of MILC continues to grow as the DSLR world declines. Why change horses in midstream? All they need do is convince more of those two groups - some of whom do some paid work - plus many specialist photographers they offer an easier handling, more connected experience than the h/duty auto everything the 'pros' (as generally conceived) need.
Zeiss feel mirrorless will soon become mainstream, DSLR relegated to the - yes - pro market. Not too many landscape/travel/street/family/city/nature/fine art shooters will be hauling Otuses around, whether they make money at it or not.
Mar 20, 2015 at 12:42 AM
p.6 #16A7rII rumour
a working pro needs to know they can get quick turnaround service, ability to rent (bodies/lenses) in most major cities, can mistreat the heck out of the gear, have batteries that last all day, and of course have it deliver great images day in and day out. the sony stuff can produce great images, but doesn't meet the other criteria. plus their software interface is 'funky'. so we keep carting around our heavy canon or nikon systems. for studio jobs, maybe a few other 'pro' lines. does profoto make a dedicated sony ttl for their B1 or B2 system--nope. 1 card slot? really.....
sony has a long way to go before they can call any of their camera systems pro lines. of course, a 'pro' can produce 'pro' results with a sony camera, but who wants to deal with the limitations listed here? I used an RX-1 for a job in dangerous middle-eastern street environment--quiet and great image quality. but it was a specific need and not a system camera. btw, i love sony stuff--my TV's are Sony and I currently own an A7II, but haven't used it much yet.
sony has a long way to go before they can call any of their camera systems pro lines. of course, a 'pro' can produce 'pro' results with a sony camera, but who wants to deal with the limitations listed here? I used an RX-1 for a job in dangerous middle-eastern street environment--quiet and great image quality. but it was a specific need and not a system camera. btw, i love sony stuff--my TV's are Sony and I currently own an A7II, but haven't used it much yet.
Mar 20, 2015 at 12:53 AM
p.6 #17A7rII rumour
Hope the A7r II is a 36mp A7 II just like the A7r was a 36mp A7, that the whisperings of the A7r II and "A9" perhaps being one and the same are wrong. Still holding out hope for a full frame mirrorless with more reasonable battery life and a nice big grip.
Mar 20, 2015 at 01:03 AM
p.6 #18A7rII rumour
The whisperings seem to be going the other way now, Lee.
Andrea at SAR seems pretty confident that the A7rII is NOT the A9, but that there will be an A9.
SO I think we can be pretty sure that the A7rII will bear a similar relationship to the A7r as the 7II did to the 7 (yes it will have IBIS for sure he thinks)
The interesting question is whether the more upmarket (lets stop saying "Pro") A9 with 50MP will be a slightly larger more rugged thing that is still aiming \to be pretty compact (Think OMDEM1 vs EM5) or whether it'll be bigger and DSLR sized...
Andrea at SAR seems pretty confident that the A7rII is NOT the A9, but that there will be an A9.
SO I think we can be pretty sure that the A7rII will bear a similar relationship to the A7r as the 7II did to the 7 (yes it will have IBIS for sure he thinks)
The interesting question is whether the more upmarket (lets stop saying "Pro") A9 with 50MP will be a slightly larger more rugged thing that is still aiming \to be pretty compact (Think OMDEM1 vs EM5) or whether it'll be bigger and DSLR sized...
Mar 20, 2015 at 01:18 AM
p.6 #19A7rII rumour
Does Sony really care about the "pro" market? That market is shrinking just as fast as the consumer market. Sony seems to be focus on travel, video, and medium format encroachment for their growth. The "pro" market does not appear to be one that they can grow into. Top of the line AF and rugged bodies? Who really needs that other than those staff photographers at Sports Illustrated... oh, wait... Remember, it's the people watching the marketing advertisement who are susceptible to messages about pro gear, not the companies who are making those ads. Those companies actually just want to make money, regardless of who they sell to. Apple never cared whether consumers or pros were paying them their billions.
Mar 20, 2015 at 02:24 AM
p.6 #20A7rII rumour
Sports Illustrated laid off their staff photographers. Agree, bulk of the market are the readers here and general users. Apple only cares about the numbers. The new MacBook 12" will only have one port. No worry about the Pro mkt there!
Only advantage of a pro line is to make buyers of the lower lines feel good. Honda just got back in F1 for same reason. Marketing. Who knows where Sony will go. They have stated they want to dominate this segment
Only advantage of a pro line is to make buyers of the lower lines feel good. Honda just got back in F1 for same reason. Marketing. Who knows where Sony will go. They have stated they want to dominate this segment
Mar 20, 2015 at 02:57 AM